What Do I Need to Know?, You know on what basis... Options

[tsuyoshikentsu]

I've been away from SR since SR5 dropped and have been offered an opportunity to co-GM a game. I've been looking over the books, but I don't yet have an intuitive sense of the system.

So what works? What doesn't? What's broken, and what needs fixing? And perhaps most importantly... what do I have to make sure my players aren't gonna try and sneak by me? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[binarywraith]

As far as broken, pay close attention to the new spirit powers in Street Grimoire. The right stack of them creates an endless karma fountain without resorting to blood magic.

[Beta]

Pay attention to the limits--how many successes you can count in a contest. In many cases these are really key. They are designed, at least in part, to limit the power of hyper-focsed builds (it matters less that you figure out a way to roll 20 dice in pistols if you can't count more than 6 of the successes....prevents the lucky roll that could drop a troll with a Saturday Night Special. So, anytime you see someone stacking a lot of dice in an area combined with ways to raise their limit, pay attention to what it could lead to.

Magic is still very strong when used well, and all traditions have access to powerful and deadly spirits that mundanes can do very little to stop. Well, other than geeking the mage first, but people sending out spirits to do their dirty work tend to be good at also staying out of the line of fire. I think I've read of some specialized alchemist builds that can get quite nasty, but couldn't give you details.

The 5e rules allow hacking of other peopele's cyberwear, which should make players paranoid and could really excite certain players as something they want to do. I've not heard anyone say that it is easy or fast enough to be that powerful, but be aware of it.

[Smash]

I've been away from SR since SR5 dropped and have been offered an opportunity to co-GM a game. I've been looking over the books, but I don't yet have an intuitive sense of the system.

So what works?

Quite a lot actually.

The matrix is usable now. You may even get players wanting to play deckers! /gasp It works even better if you can suspend disbelief around how some of the tech works. The ultra-simulationists that tend to be attracted to Shadowrun howl it down quite a lot here.

One thing to remember about the matrix , and it takes a lot to tease it out of the rules but icons running in silent mode can’t be detected outside of 100m unless the detector knows something about the icon (and that’s the icon, not the item that allegedly has an icon). This stops armchair decking and provides a sort of cohesive glue to how the matrix works. A lot of people don’t agree with this interpretation but they’re also the one’s who’ll tell you that the matrix in 5th is stupid and doesn’t work.

Limits are great. The only trouble is that calculating them is arduous for NPCs. If I was to design 6th Ed, I'd probably make attributes limits for the most part and reduce dice pools, but it's still a move in the right direction.

What doesn't?

Honestly, not much. I would say the things that don't come under the broken category. If I was to say anything I'd say combat modifiers are still too complex and that AoE mechanics are too lethal.

What's broken, and what needs fixing? And perhaps most importantly... what do I have to make sure my players aren't gonna try and sneak by me? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Alchemy. It's like 1st ed decking for Mages. They start doing it, you order pizza, and recommence play about an hour later. It allows them to cast spells without having to maintain them effectively. Problem is that NPCs can do it too and have unlimited resources. I largely just pretend it doesn't exist.

Magic still needs a lot of work. I'll qualify that by saying that it's leaps and bounds ahead of 4th Ed, but could still be better. AoE spells are still too powerful. I think drain needs to be quite a bit heavier on some spells and that mana spell damage probably needs to be bought in line with elemental spells but just have say +2 extra drain. Note that mental manipulation spells are resisted with 2 stats now rather than just willpower. This is a massive + for 5th Ed.

Wireless bonuses are a good idea but draw a lot of ire from the simulationist crowd. I also agree that they are generally not good enough to warrant use (smartlinks and wired reflexes being the notable exceptions). Some are just stupid too, even for someone for me who largely doesn't care. For example, why does the clothing I wear give me +2 to negotiation if wireless is on, especially over coms or the matrix?

Recoil and range modifiers are always the first things to be conveniently forgotten by players. Ensure that they record them, especially recoil as full-auto is really lethal. If someone fires full auto 2 initiative passes in a row (besides suppression fire) they are probably cheating, albeit unintentionally.

Explosives work too well tactically. If you have players who carry around grenade launchers everywhere they go make sure they pay for it. While open carry is probably a thing in 2075 Shadowrun’s Seattle, carrying anything above a pistol will probably be met with suspicion and draw attention from the Popo. Ensure that grenades have the availability rolled and that it takes the full time increment to find and buy. That’ll stop people using them like throwing knives  Personally I think they should be significantly more expensive but that’s just me.

[Fatum]

Hoo boy, here we go again!

[tsuyoshikentsu]

stuff

Gonna address some specific questions below, but in general this was really helpful. Thank you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Alchemy. It's like 1st ed decking for Mages. They start doing it, you order pizza, and recommence play about an hour later. It allows them to cast spells without having to maintain them effectively. Problem is that NPCs can do it too and have unlimited resources. I largely just pretend it doesn't exist.

Is this something that a PbP format would mitigate, or is it just awful? (In other words, is it something that can be done in downtime in a side thread, or will the entire game have to pause for it to work?) I don't want to make anyone feel old, but I literally was not born yet when SR1E came out.

Wireless bonuses are a good idea but draw a lot of ire from the simulationist crowd. I also agree that they are generally not good enough to warrant use (smartlinks and wired reflexes being the notable exceptions). Some are just stupid too, even for someone for me who largely doesn't care. For example, why does the clothing I wear give me +2 to negotiation if wireless is on, especially over coms or the matrix?

I'm not a simulationist, so none of the Matrix/wireless stuff bothers me. The double upshot is that the clothes thing doesn't bother me either! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Explosives work too well tactically. If you have players who carry around grenade launchers everywhere they go make sure they pay for it. While open carry is probably a thing in 2075 Shadowrun’s Seattle, carrying anything above a pistol will probably be met with suspicion and draw attention from the Popo. Ensure that grenades have the availability rolled and that it takes the full time increment to find and buy. That’ll stop people using them like throwing knives  Personally I think they should be significantly more expensive but that’s just me.

So I suppose that pistol grenade launcher is gone. A shame. I loved that thing.

Hoo boy, here we go again!

My intent is not to start an edition war. I'm seriously just in the position of wanting to run a game for people who know the new edition a LOT better than I do, and I'm looking to avoid being hoodwinked. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Beta]

regarding alchemy: They made alchemical preparations start to fade after several hours. This is good, as you can't have an alchemist say "I spend all week making preparations and show up with 20 of the things." Also good because it means that they can't always just sleep off the drain from creating them, which keeps the drain somewhat meaningful.

BUT, in turn that makes it harder to handle in downtime. That said, it could perfectly well be handled while the group is overall taking a short break for pizza, making tea, or whatever, and if you fully trust your players you could have one player witness the roles of the one prepping the alchemy and they can just give you the summary. (they do have variable power, based on roles, so roles probably are required).

How you feel about the current decking rules may be affecting in part by whether you are playing a character with much cool cyberwear and gear. Not being able to use it to full effect for fear of enemy deckers hacking it generally feels bad, I think *. I almost feel that there should be an option for hard-wiring certain functions (avoiding wireless) at additional cost/inconvenience (as in: your wired reflexes and reaction enhancers could play nicely all of the time if they are wired together, but that is another 0.1 essence and a smidge of nuyen)

* a classic psychology experiment is, roughly to
- offer one group of volunteers a choice of either being given $10 , or a 50% chance of winning $25 -- most will take the latter, as on average it pays more.
- give a second group of volunteers $10, then offer them a chance to pay $10 for a 50% chance to win $25. Far fewer will take it than from the first group, even though mathematically they are the same, because we don't like giving up something that we have.
I think the same effect is at work around the wireless bonus thing--they really feel like core functionality on a lot of gear, they are the larger part of the effect on a smart link, for instance. To have it, then to have to give it up some of the time, feels like you are giving something up.

[Voran]

Thanks for this btw, haven't been here myself in...jeez like 2 years? Catching up is complicated (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sengir]

On the more mundane end, there also is the problem of chars with high dodge pools, which can make it different for the average mook to hit at all. Beware of elvish sams and adepts with INI and REA up to the max. Luckball humans and basically everyone with skill priority A can also be annoying, though not really game-breaking and easily solved by not using priority gen.

And if a player should decide they want to play a TM, talk him out of it. Technos are broken not in the sense of being too good, but they just don't do anything except dying.

[Smash]

regarding alchemy: They made alchemical preparations start to fade after several hours. This is good, as you can't have an alchemist say "I spend all week making preparations and show up with 20 of the things." Also good because it means that they can't always just sleep off the drain from creating them, which keeps the drain somewhat meaningful.

BUT, in turn that makes it harder to handle in downtime. That said, it could perfectly well be handled while the group is overall taking a short break for pizza, making tea, or whatever, and if you fully trust your players you could have one player witness the roles of the one prepping the alchemy and they can just give you the summary. (they do have variable power, based on roles, so roles probably are required).

All true. Ultimately these rules allow mages to be able to bring more magic to the field with less in-game cost with a real-time cost of time. That's something that the game doesn't need. If you caster wants to cast spells, just cast them. i've already seen the worst aspects of the alchemy ruleset on the game with spellcasters trying to work out how to get around spell-trigger rules sets with marble bags, etc. No thanks.

How you feel about the current decking rules may be affecting in part by whether you are playing a character with much cool cyberwear and gear. Not being able to use it to full effect for fear of enemy deckers hacking it generally feels bad, I think *. I almost feel that there should be an option for hard-wiring certain functions (avoiding wireless) at additional cost/inconvenience (as in: your wired reflexes and reaction enhancers could play nicely all of the time if they are wired together, but that is another 0.1 essence and a smidge of nuyen)

Again, all true. I think this is a virtue of the system. It's also something you can mitigate by having a decent comlink, a decker or even 3 logic, an aweful deck and some basic software to protect your own stuff. I say that if someone wants to go around with bleeding edge gear and no strategy to protect themselves then they deserve what they get. That being said, some house-ruling of the bricking rules to replace bricking with a temporary scrambling mechanic can alleviate some player concerns while not really affecting the deckers new tactical options in 5th ed.

[Smash]

Is this something that a PbP format would mitigate, or is it just awful? (In other words, is it something that can be done in downtime in a side thread, or will the entire game have to pause for it to work?) I don't want to make anyone feel old, but I literally was not born yet when SR1E came out.

Being able to do it in downtime would make it worse in my opinion. It' has parallel mechanics that just add complexity. Dabble in it at your own risk.

So I suppose that pistol grenade launcher is gone. A shame. I loved that thing.

It doesn't have to be. You can use the rules in run and gun to make grenades a tactic option rather than an easy way to take out entirte enemy groups with ease. Also, ensure that these sorts of weapons draw the attention they deserve. Remember that the popo and the corps have bigger and badder toys than the runners. I'm trying to come up with a dodge mechanic. Ultimately if bullets can be avoided then so should AoE mechanics.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Again, all true. I think this is a virtue of the system. It's also something you can mitigate by having a decent comlink, a decker or even 3 logic, an aweful deck and some basic software to protect your own stuff. I say that if someone wants to go around with bleeding edge gear and no strategy to protect themselves then they deserve what they get. That being said, some house-ruling of the bricking rules to replace bricking with a temporary scrambling mechanic can alleviate some player concerns while not really affecting the deckers new tactical options in 5th ed.

Easiest way to protect your high end running gear is to NOT PUT IT ON THE MATRIX in the first place. Done, Total protection. That's what any professional runner with his life on the line would do. Best protection there is. Works like a charm. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fatum]

Could we not?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Could we not?

Not What? Discuss the deficiencies of the System in a topic that is requesting that we talk about it? Fact is - if you want to protect high-end equipment, you do not put it on the matrix. Done. Does not affect anything else, really. Now, whether that is a good position to be in is something else entirely.

[Voran]

Yeah, while there have been efforts in SR5 to go, "Here's reasons why you should have your stuff wireless!", largely I see it as a "give deckers something to do in physical combat" logic rather than actual in-game logic. I mean, if I have option A, which provides a benefit with no downsides, and option B which provides a benefit, provides a bigger benefit in some instances and provides a huge gaping hole of disadvantage that can negate its benefits entirely, generally you have to sell HARD why option B is going to be a better choice for me, than option A. Maybe you can get me to loadout based on option A, with some Option B things I use as secondaries where I know their increased benefits won't be hurt by their disadvantages..


in game terms that usually means, "Not something in combat".

[Wothanoz]

Being able to do it in downtime would make it worse in my opinion. It' has parallel mechanics that just add complexity. Dabble in it at your own risk.



It doesn't have to be. You can use the rules in run and gun to make grenades a tactic option rather than an easy way to take out entirte enemy groups with ease. Also, ensure that these sorts of weapons draw the attention they deserve. Remember that the popo and the corps have bigger and badder toys than the runners. I'm trying to come up with a dodge mechanic. Ultimately if bullets can be avoided then so should AoE mechanics.

For dodging AoEs, why not allow an interupt like Hit the Dirt, call it "Dive for Cover!". Make a test of some sort, every hit allows you to move a meter away from the point of impact. Either this can put a barrier between you and the blast, or you can atleast get further away from a HE grenade.

Something like that should work well. I'd probably make it an AGI+Gymanstics, honestly.

[Wothanoz]

I'm walking out the door, but anyone worried about wireless getting hacked? Have a dedicated EW guy with a good comlink, slave the devices to that, and let him do matrix defense. It works fairly well.

Also, Area Jammers.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm walking out the door, but anyone worried about wireless getting hacked? Have a dedicated EW guy with a good comlink, slave the devices to that, and let him do matrix defense. It works fairly well.

Also, Area Jammers.

If you are using area jammers to make sure that you do not get hacked, why are you even on the matrix anyways. Why are you broadcasting a huge electronic bubble?
As for trusting someone else to secure your electronic footprint, feel free. I sure wouldn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wothanoz]

If you are using area jammers to make sure that you do not get hacked, why are you even on the matrix anyways. Why are you broadcasting a huge electronic bubble?
As for trusting someone else to secure your electronic footprint, feel free. I sure wouldn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As far as trusting people: we're playing a game where we pretend to be violent felons, committing violent felonies. If I can't trust the EW guy to secure our matrix connection, then why should I trust the street sam to cover me, why would I trust the face not to sell me out to my enemies... I mean, if you can't trust your team, then matrix security isn't the biggest problem you have.

Regarding the jammers: Obviously you don't leave them on all the time. You generally run silent/hidden, and that keeps deckers from just hosing you. To spot a hidden icon, they need to be within 100m of it, so using area and directional jammers can help even the odds if you get detected while on a run, for instance.

Hence the reason for a dedicated EW/Counter Measures guy: he can take Full Matrix Defense and either stop, or atleast slow down intrusion. and then your hacker/decker starts hitting the enemy decker.

[Fatum]

Also, Area Jammers.

Which turn wireless bonuses off. See page 421, you need an active Matrix connection for your telescopic baton to extend fast.

[Wothanoz]

Which turn wireless bonuses off. See page 421, you need an active Matrix connection for your telescopic baton to extend fast.

And... they have a wireless benefit that allows you to set your jammer to not jam devices and personas you designate. So, no, they don't do that. And you can always use datajacks and cables to direct connect to your device. I don't know if there's been some errata that overides that, but I don't care: we play that a DNI connection is just as good as a wireless connection.

The EW guy isn't a hacker. He does defense work, he keeps your system from being compromised. The Decker? He wrecks the opponent before they can wreck you. You give him the time and lee-way to respond to the attacks. And if he's good at defending, he can even get damage a careless hacker. And if they're close enough, he switches on an area jammer, or if he knows the direction, he bathes it with a directional, and degrades the enemies performance.

For example, a rating 4 area jammer, will shut down the cheapest two cyber decks within 20m, up to the hermes within 15m, up to the Tsurugi in 10m. That's not terrible. For a rating 6, you can extend that to to 30m, 25m, and 20m for those dead zones. A rating 6 directional jammer can shut down the bottom tier decks within 120m, the next tier at 100m, the next at 80m. Which ain't bad at all.

If you can put out some trigger pullers or drones with jammers on them around your EW guy, then when you go under attack, you can blanket a large area, and shut down a lot of wireless at one time.

I impressed on our street sam the need to have a datajack, if for no other reason, so he can run directly to his gun.

[Fatum]

And... they have a wireless benefit that allows you to set your jammer to not jam devices and personas you designate. So, no, they don't do that.

If your devices are not jammed, they're just as vulnerable as they would've been without a jammer.

And you can always use datajacks and cables to direct connect to your device. I don't know if there's been some errata that overides that, but I don't care: we play that a DNI connection is just as good as a wireless connection.

This is not how the RAW work. It's meaningless to discuss anything other than the RAW because with enough houseruling you can get any system to work the way you want; the issue remains that the result has nothing to do with how the rest of the community is playing the game.

[Wothanoz]

If your devices are not jammed, they're just as vulnerable as they would've been without a jammer.

If the deck is within range and shut down, it can't hack us. I assume we are running silent, so the decker has to be within 100m of us to ping us.

This is not how the RAW work. It's meaningless to discuss anything other than the RAW because with enough houseruling you can get any system to work the way you want; the issue remains that the result has nothing to do with how the rest of the community is playing the game.

I don't play at your table. And if your major complaint to wireless is solved by using DNI to make it more secure, then I can't imagine why you wouldn't do that. But hey, whatever, you play the way you want, I'll play the way I want.

What I do know is that making DNI work for wireless connection to an item makes a lot of real sense, and it solves a lot of problems. It works. So, I like it.

Edit: And I've been modding SR rules since SR2, so I'm not about to stop now, just because it's not "RAW". I don't see how people can complain about the flaws of the system, then wantto be strict rules lawyers. If it doesn't work, why not talk about how to fix it? This is, after-all, Dum[pshock, where we do that sort of thing.

[Fatum]

If the deck is within range and shut down, it can't hack us. I assume we are running silent, so the decker has to be within 100m of us to ping us.

Even skipping how vaguely defined finding silent-running nodes is, your jammer is still effective out to a couple dozen meters unless you know specifically where the decker you're targeting is. And if you do know that, you don't need jamming any more: bullets are cheaper, and spells are free.

I don't play at your table. And if your major complaint to wireless is solved by using DNI to make it more secure, then I can't imagine why you wouldn't do that. But hey, whatever, you play the way you want, I'll play the way I want.
What I do know is that making DNI work for wireless connection to an item makes a lot of real sense, and it solves a lot of problems. It works. So, I like it.

It just in one fell swoop destroys the whole concept of wireless bonuses, hackable gear, etcetera, etcetera. Basically, it annihilates the foundational concepts around which SR5 Matrix was designed, which means what you're playing is radically different from SR5 as the world sees it. Which means the experiences at your gaming table are, well, marginal at best, the same way as hermit's (was it?) games where Karma is numbered in hundreds are marginal and not representative of how the system works for the bulk of its players.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Best way to be protected from Hacking is to have zero presence on the Matrix when actively running. Can't be hacked if you have zero electronic signature. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Which is perfectly fine in game. There are those who will do exactly that, and forgo the mostly useless (some would say totally useless) wireless bonuses. Sometimes you cannot avoid an electronic bubble, but there are many times where having one will kill you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Our games go to the mid range 100's Karma (My last 2 characters were at ~500 Karma each when I changed over characters) over time. We have been playing SR5 now for about 11 months now and we are about 150 Karma in for our characters.