What Do I Need to Know?, You know on what basis... Options

[Fatum]

The main problem I have with wireless bonuses is not even the fact that a few of them make very little sense. Okay, fine, sure, your laser pointer points more precisely thanks to getting data from the ambient wind sensors (scattered around a top-secret corp facility and just uploading info into the Matrix without any authentication required). My problem is that apparently the fine art of triangulating a radiowave emission source was apparently lost somewhere between 2070 and 2075. Because if it wasn't, running with wireless on == advertising your precise location to anyone with a narrow-beam receiver a school kid can build.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Agreed, Fatum. If you broadcast, they will come. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
That is one of the risks you take when you go active, regardless of whether you are hidden or not in the matrix. You may be awash in data points for matrix tracking, but emissions are traceable outside of the Matrix, and I know that my GM is just wily enough to use that vulnerability. I know that I do on the rare times that I run the game, and I ALWAYS plan for it as a character in the game. After all, it isn't rocket science, as you pointed out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wothanoz]

The main problem I have with wireless bonuses is not even the fact that a few of them make very little sense. Okay, fine, sure, your laser pointer points more precisely thanks to getting data from the ambient wind sensors (scattered around a top-secret corp facility and just uploading info into the Matrix without any authentication required). My problem is that apparently the fine art of triangulating a radiowave emission source was apparently lost somewhere between 2070 and 2075. Because if it wasn't, running with wireless on == advertising your precise location to anyone with a narrow-beam receiver a school kid can build.

Triangulate radio waves. You have to identify them, and there's just how many matrix icons out there? But, some of them, like personal identity, are going to be necessary for day to day life unless you live in and operate in a lawless state. You can't walk down the street in any place and not have somebody trying to pin a matrix identity to your physical presence. So you have to have some sort of Matrix presence, or that will raise suspicion. It's something that is inevitable in the 6th world, there's no way that you can conduct business without it. Just basic, everyday business requires a commlink and a matrix presence.

So, everything has a matrix presence, and why not? The corporations dominate the world, and you think you're going to get them to just let people have freedom from omnipresent advertisement? Really? Not having a matrix presence would be weird. Like, if the cops saw a guy in a suit with no identity, they're not just gonna turn a blind eye and assume that you're legit, despite having no credentials. Welcome to the frisk. Oh, guns? Restricted items? Oh no.

So to avoid that, you have a commlink with a fake id or two on it that are credible and certified for your equipment for casual nights out. And that whole network has to be secured. And then you need a second network(with a separate commlink and fake ID(s), and that needs to be very secure, and it has to run hidden in the matrix. Your "day" matrix persona and icon can be ditched(though you really need about a half dozen good ids to survive for long) at it's safe house to "sleep"(all the while, still an active matrix persona. Your hidden commlink network? That's when you go on runs for real. And preferably, if it's going to get attacked, I think I want a guy specialized in defending it. Because that guy can vastly amplify the resistence you have to matrix identification. And that is with a pure Rules As Written situation as can be. If our EW guy has INT 5, WIL 5 and LOG 5, and does a full matrix defense, we can be looking at pretty sizable dice pools to resist matrix attacks.

OR you can give up the advantage of wireless communications, the ability to precisely locate each other at will, to share information with a lot of bandwidth. Just having a network of commlinks gives you the ability to send real time video, and with a direct neural connection, you don't need much more than that to be able to vastly increase the situational awareness of the team. That's completely rules as written, as currently as the game stands. When you can expand the communication from a spoken sentence, to real time video or a paragraph of text's worth of information for the same amount of time per simple action is pretty darn important. I don't need to tell paul to put a flashbang on the balcony guards, because he sees them, and I can concentrate on my primary guards, while Ringo and John can cover the back, and seeing us neutralize the guards, assault the back door. We can do that, because even though we might be spread out a bit, we are networked.

But we can't do that if we run without any matrix presence at all. We can't share guncam footage, we can't communicate without direct line of sight or through voice, and the amount of information(sentence per simple action!) we can send. That's what we give up first, by not having a matrix presence on a "for real" run. That's before any goofy wireless bonuses or anything. That's just a massive decrease in what we can do. And giving up drone support? I would much rather let a Steel Lynx take bullets meant for a street sam. The drone is expendable: we can abandon it. We don't abandon our team though. Not being able to have a bird's eye, real time view of our surroundings? How do you manage to not get killed?

But go ahead and build a garage radio detector, and proceed to pick up so many signals you don't even know which ones are which. And encrypted! Yeah, sure man, you're just going to build that in your garage. Well, i mean, actually, you could probably build some pretty good stuff, but the point is that you gotta be able to sift through those signals, and identify the one you want. And... that's why we have deckers/hackers who can really weed'em out. Sure, it's not realistic: but hey, it's an imaginary idea in a game with wizards, elves and dragons. It's not even something we can point at a real world example of. The Matrix works because it's magic!

And what do the jammers do? Well, when we go on real runs, we have our commlinks slaved to that afore-mentioned EW guy, but everyone else carries a rating 6 area jammer, but it's inactive(yet they are all set up to not interfere with networked devices), while several of the microdrones carry'em too. So, the EW guy generally sits in the middle of a bubble(generally his van, with the hacker in the back). Now, if everyone runes a really good comlink(above 5), there's really not as much as a pressing need for an EW guy, because your commlinks are throwing 10-12 dice. Though there is an advantage to him doing Full Matrix Defense(FMD?), where he can be throwing additional dice in the form of willpower. Which isn't bad, as that could make that a 15-17 die test for defense against matrix attacks.

This is when it helps for the Master to actually not be a commlink, but a deck, though that limits the number of slaves in that particular network. I don't see any reason to not allow networking networks, but perhaps there is a specific page, a call-out I'm missing? It's a big book man. Nested notworks are how I run it, but that can depend on other folks, I guess. But yeah, either it was a successful sleaze, or an unsuccessful attack(and i will take causing matrix damage for free with a 15 dice pool) to not trigger an alert. A successful attack triggers an alert, and an unsuccessful sleaze triggers an alert.

When that happens, a couple of things tend to go down. If the decker isn't doing anything but providing matrix overwatch, he starts going into the offensive on that threat, immediately. And the jammers go on. Bam, bubble around the network's source. If you're within that bubble of jamming, then you might not have a signal at all and get shut down, but either way, you have a penalty to attack, and we know we are under attack. But you've gotta eat through that noise and our matrix Defense to start exploiting us. Meanwhile, we're working to neutralize you.

And the directional jammer rawks. Let's say we have to deal with a lonestar roadblock while trying to escape from a run that went hot(as they are wont to do). They have rating 3 commlinks, so once we're within 60m of them, the directional scanner can shut down their commlinks, meaning they can't talk to dispatch. We knock'em out with a few flashbangs, gel rounds and stunballs, and carry on our merry way. Sure, there's a sudden burst of noise they can note, but then it's gone, and their cops are KO'd.

Hit'em fast and keep moving, and try not to kill them. Dead cops make the live cops want blood. Knocked out cops just wanna catch you.

[binarywraith]

Your entire argument hinges on 'technology doesn't follow the established rules of physics for the setting because I say so', which is pretty poor argumentation.

[apple]

And of course the entire "corp control the tech, so all tech can be stupid, because corp says so" goes out of the window the very moment players discover the tech skills. Imagine the horror a naugthy player could unleash with a hardware test where he would craft a mobile / radio from the 2050s for his team.

SYL

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Triangulate radio waves. You have to identify them, and there's just how many matrix icons out there?

***************

OR you can give up the advantage of wireless communications, the ability to precisely locate each other at will

Wait a minute Wothanoz... First you cannot triangulate precisely, and then you can? Which is it? Either you can or you cannot. If you can (and I know that it is possible), then you are vulnerable. Besides, you are not triangulating on a Matrix Icon, you are triangulating on a WIRELESS TRANSMISSION. And if you have several points in your target compound that are triangulating (and SR4A had exactly that system, which would not be hard to use in SR5), Bang, you are dead. Just that simple.

Yes, Communications are good. Tacnets are good. But unfortunately, the Entry Level Tacnet is so far beyond Player characters that it is laughable. *shrug*

[Wothanoz]

Your entire argument hinges on 'technology doesn't follow the established rules of physics for the setting because I say so', which is pretty poor argumentation.

... Everything I just posted is in the freakin' rulebook man. I don't know if you're aware of it, but SR technology hasn't been following the rules of physics for 20 years. Not sure why that's my fault. It's been "magic" since first edition, and now you're upset about that?

[apple]

Strange, in SR4 you could pinpoint radio waves.

SYL

[Wothanoz]

Wait a minute Wothanoz... First you cannot triangulate precisely, and then you can? Which is it? Either you can or you cannot. If you can (and I know that it is possible), then you are vulnerable. Besides, you are not triangulating on a Matrix Icon, you are triangulating on a WIRELESS TRANSMISSION. And if you have several points in your target compound that are triangulating (and SR4A had exactly that system, which would not be hard to use in SR5), Bang, you are dead. Just that simple.

Yes, Communications are good. Tacnets are good. But unfortunately, the Entry Level Tacnet is so far beyond Player characters that it is laughable. *shrug*

Ok, so you fire up your triangulation system. It gives you hundreds of hits. How do you figure out which ones are signals you want, and how many are signals you don't want? There is a reason why we have specialist EW people in the real world. Because you have to be able to sift through all that sand that's out there to find that gold nugget(aka the one you want).

[Wothanoz]

Strange, in SR4 you could pinpoint radio waves.

SYL

Yeah, and you could hack with a commlink. What happened to that?

I'm not arguing about the realism of this: It's not a realistic depiction of modern communications equipment at all, but, hey, it's never really been that way.

[Wothanoz]

And of course the entire "corp control the tech, so all tech can be stupid, because corp says so" goes out of the window the very moment players discover the tech skills. Imagine the horror a naugthy player could unleash with a hardware test where he would craft a mobile / radio from the 2050s for his team.

SYL

Wait. Suddenly we can't use radio transmissions to traingulate on that radio? But we can for a commlink.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ok, so you fire up your triangulation system. It gives you hundreds of hits. How do you figure out which ones are signals you want, and how many are signals you don't want? There is a reason why we have specialist EW people in the real world. Because you have to be able to sift through all that sand that's out there to find that gold nugget(aka the one you want).

Lets see... Those signals that have the appropriate signal ID can be ignored (IFF has existed for a long while now), those that do not can be targeted. In some facilities, you are not allowed to have wireless transmissions AT ALL (especially some research facilities). ANY signal in those areas is targeted. Pretty simple, really. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And yes, you are correct that EW specialists do that sort of thing. But in SR5, who is your EW specialist in a team of 4? The Hacker will be too damned busy protecting everyone's asses to do his job, and you probably don't want the Mage, Sam, Rigger, Physad, or Covert Ops specialist doing such things, right? SO, WHO will protect your ass in such a situation? Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a team of 6-8 to handle such things.

And small point: You do not use a Transmission to triangulate... you use a receiver to do so. A facility can be signal dark and still track you based upon your transmissions. There was even a really cool piece of tech that did that automatically in SR4. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wothanoz]

Lets see... Those signals that have the appropriate signal ID can be ignored (IFF has existed for a long while now), those that do not can be targeted. In some facilities, you are not allowed to have wireless transmissions AT ALL (especially some research facilities). ANY signal in those areas is targeted. Pretty simple, really. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

IFF can be spoofed.

And in facilities where you can't have any wireless... then you don't have wireless. Simple. But that's not every where, and in general, there are methods in the rules for circumventing this.

Yet, suddenly, we can't use the Rules as Written, because they're "dumb" and don't make sense to physics(nevermind that we're talking about a magic internet that's existed for 20+ years in the real world)?

You malcontents are gonna have to make up your mind.

[Wothanoz]

And yes, you are correct that EW specialists do that sort of thing. But in SR5, who is your EW specialist in a team of 4? The Hacker will be too damned busy protecting everyone's asses to do his job, and you probably don't want the Mage, Sam, Rigger, Physad, or Covert Ops specialist doing such things, right? SO, WHO will protect your ass in such a situation? Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a team of 6-8 to handle such things.

Well, given the grumpiness of some of the posters here, I can imagine why they have trouble finding 6-8 people to sit around the table and listen to them bitch about how shitty shadowrun is. I purposefully keep my criticisms of the current ruleset restricted to those of us who are familiar with previous editions in my gaming group: being negative about the system doesn't encourage people to play. So, there's that.

Second. Why nto the covert ops specialist? EW and counter-measures seems to be exactly the sort of thing they should be doing.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, given the grumpiness of some of the posters here, I can imagine why they have trouble finding 6-8 people to sit around the table and listen to them bitch about how shitty shadowrun is. I purposefully keep my criticisms of the current ruleset restricted to those of us who are familiar with previous editions in my gaming group: being negative about the system doesn't encourage people to play. So, there's that.

Second. Why nto the covert ops specialist? EW and counter-measures seems to be exactly the sort of thing they should be doing.

No worries - Our table grows and shrinks according to availability. We have as little as 3 and as many as 8 depending upon circumstance and time of year. But not everyone is so fortunate. Played all Editions, and far prefer SR4A. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) *shrug*

Secondly - Kind of hard to be covert when you are broadcasting your location to everyone who cares to hear it. Not very covert in my opinion. Having been in the Corps where entire Teams, Squads and Platoons communicate with hand signals, it is not as difficult to go signal dark as you imply it is. Yes, you MAY get some benefit from communications, but it is levied against the drawback that you are continuously broadcasting a signal (Anti-Radiation munitions ARE a thing after all). For those of us who have a tactical mindest, Tactical Transceivers are far more efficient. They only transmit in bursts, and very short ones at that unless you are holding entire conversations. Not enough of a signal to triangulate upon (generally), and still allows some remote conversation capabilities. And it cannot be traced on the Matrix if wireless is disabled (since they are NOT on the Matrix by default). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wothanoz]

No worries - Our table grows and shrinks according to availability. We have as little as 3 and as many as 8 depending upon circumstance and time of year. But not everyone is so fortunate. Played all Editions, and far prefer SR4A. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) *shrug*

Secondly - Kind of hard to be covert when you are broadcasting your location to everyone who cares to hear it. Not very covert in my opinion. Having been in the Corps where entire Teams, Squads and Platoons communicate with hand signals, it is not as difficult to go signal dark as you imply it is. Yes, you MAY get some benefit from communications, but it is levied against the drawback that you are continuously broadcasting a signal (Anti-Radiation munitions ARE a thing after all). For those of us who have a tactical mindest, Tactical Transceivers are far more efficient. They only transmit in bursts, and very short ones at that unless you are holding entire conversations. Not enough of a signal to triangulate upon (generally), and still allows some remote conversation capabilities. And it cannot be traced on the Matrix if wireless is disabled (since they are NOT on the Matrix by default). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm not implying that it's easy to go signals dark. I'm stating that in a setting where everything is online, almost all the time, it's easier to blend into the background noise than is appreciated by most. If the location you are hitting is so secure that there is no wireless, well, that's a helluva run. That's like, not something a starting team of 4 people is going to realistically pull off.

Edit: And don't take my grumpiness remark too personally. You have, as far as we've talked so far, not gotten too offensive or irate with me, and generally finish things with a smile. People who smile ain't too bad. But there is quite a bit of grumpiness on this forum.

But as far as burst transmissions: I somewhat assume that's part of what a "hidden" icon is on the matrix, one that doesn't constantly broadcast, but bursts off information every now and then. Probably hopes different frequencies, and it's probably encrypted as well. Well, that only makes sense. But, applying logic to the SR matrix rules starts getting... well, frustrating.

[Lobo0705]

This is when it helps for the Master to actually not be a commlink, but a deck, though that limits the number of slaves in that particular network. I don't see any reason to not allow networking networks, but perhaps there is a specific page, a call-out I'm missing? It's a big book man. Nested notworks are how I run it, but that can depend on other folks, I guess. But yeah, either it was a successful sleaze, or an unsuccessful attack(and i will take causing matrix damage for free with a 15 dice pool) to not trigger an alert. A successful attack triggers an alert, and an unsuccessful sleaze triggers an alert.

You'll have to take my word, as I don't have time right now to find the exact clarification, but a device can either be a master or a slave, not both. So if you have a commlink slaved to a deck, you can't have another item slaved to that commlink.

When that happens, a couple of things tend to go down. If the decker isn't doing anything but providing matrix overwatch, he starts going into the offensive on that threat, immediately. And the jammers go on. Bam, bubble around the network's source. If you're within that bubble of jamming, then you might not have a signal at all and get shut down, but either way, you have a penalty to attack, and we know we are under attack. But you've gotta eat through that noise and our matrix Defense to start exploiting us. Meanwhile, we're working to neutralize you.

And the directional jammer rawks. Let's say we have to deal with a lonestar roadblock while trying to escape from a run that went hot(as they are wont to do). They have rating 3 commlinks, so once we're within 60m of them, the directional scanner can shut down their commlinks, meaning they can't talk to dispatch. We knock'em out with a few flashbangs, gel rounds and stunballs, and carry on our merry way. Sure, there's a sudden burst of noise they can note, but then it's gone, and their cops are KO'd.

A couple of things (btw, I agree with most of your points)

1) Bear in mind that often you will not even have to defend yourself, depending on how good of a deck and decker you have when your stuff is slaved to it. Remember if you are running silent (and there isn't any reason NOT to be running silent when on a run) - the enemy decker still has to find your stuff to be able to do anything to it, and with a decent deck, the Stealth Program, and a high Logic (which any decker worth his salt will have), it will be difficult for the enemy decker to be actually able to successfully perform the Matrix Perception test to find any of your icons - and that is without jamming.

2) There was a clarification over on the official boards which I disagree with personally, as I find it to be idiotic, but just throwing it out there for chewing on, that if the Noise is greater than the device rating of the item, then it loses its wireless bonus, not actual access to the Matrix. Again, this makes no sense to me, but that was the "official" ruling on it. (Btw - if someone has seen something to change that, let me know). So hitting a commlink with a jammer doesn't actually stop it from sending messages, although it would make it harder to do anything that requires dice, and if a commlink had any wireless bonuses, it would negate them.

3) Hacking someone is hard to do. Remember that you have to factor the noise for distance, the noise for the area that the decker is in, the noise for the area that the target is in, any additional penalty for being on the wrong grid, and even then, if you want to, you get exactly one attack and that's it, should the target want it that way, since it is a free action to turn all the wireless functionality of all your devices off at once. So once the target is actually under attack, either its defenses will be so good that you can't beat them, or if you outclass them, the best you can hope for is to shut them down (which can be considered a win in its own right - but the idea of the enemy decker hacking all your stuff at will is silly.)

[Wothanoz]

You'll have to take my word, as I don't have time right now to find the exact clarification, but a device can either be a master or a slave, not both. So if you have a commlink slaved to a deck, you can't have another item slaved to that commlink.

I think it's kind of implied under PANS/WANS, but.. eh, it's a bit vague. And I think I prefer nested networks. It's hard to imagine that a commlink or deck that's got more computer power than everything in my facility at work, combined, can only keep up with a handful of devices.

A couple of things (btw, I agree with most of your points)

1) Bear in mind that often you will not even have to defend yourself, depending on how good of a deck and decker you have when your stuff is slaved to it. Remember if you are running silent (and there isn't any reason NOT to be running silent when on a run) - the enemy decker still has to find your stuff to be able to do anything to it, and with a decent deck, the Stealth Program, and a high Logic (which any decker worth his salt will have), it will be difficult for the enemy decker to be actually able to successfully perform the Matrix Perception test to find any of your icons - and that is without jamming.

2) There was a clarification over on the official boards which I disagree with personally, as I find it to be idiotic, but just throwing it out there for chewing on, that if the Noise is greater than the device rating of the item, then it loses its wireless bonus, not actual access to the Matrix. Again, this makes no sense to me, but that was the "official" ruling on it. (Btw - if someone has seen something to change that, let me know). So hitting a commlink with a jammer doesn't actually stop it from sending messages, although it would make it harder to do anything that requires dice, and if a commlink had any wireless bonuses, it would negate them.

3) Hacking someone is hard to do. Remember that you have to factor the noise for distance, the noise for the area that the decker is in, the noise for the area that the target is in, any additional penalty for being on the wrong grid, and even then, if you want to, you get exactly one attack and that's it, should the target want it that way, since it is a free action to turn all the wireless functionality of all your devices off at once. So once the target is actually under attack, either its defenses will be so good that you can't beat them, or if you outclass them, the best you can hope for is to shut them down (which can be considered a win in its own right - but the idea of the enemy decker hacking all your stuff at will is silly.)

The clarification on 2 doesn't make any sense(as I'm sure you're aware).

[Fatum]

I'm not implying that it's easy to go signals dark. I'm stating that in a setting where everything is online, almost all the time, it's easier to blend into the background noise than is appreciated by most. If the location you are hitting is so secure that there is no wireless, well, that's a helluva run. That's like, not something a starting team of 4 people is going to realistically pull off.

A warehouse in the Barrens will have how many wireless devices in the night that aren't on a very short list of these allowed? Even the least secure of corporate facilities have precisely zero reasons not to pinpoint anyone wireless-enabled coming anywhere near, because building a system with narrow-beam receivers and a white list database is cheaper than even installing cam coverage. If you want, radiowaves are just like any other electromagnetic emission: there might be a million of lights in the city, and people or vehicles with light sources might be passing a secure zone every few seconds, but that won't make infiltrating that zone in a brightly glowing suit a good idea. Actually, wireless bonuses system is even sillier than that, because a brightly glowing suit just sends electromagnetic waves in all directions until they're blocked, while a Matrix-connected device even in a mesh network must maintain the signal on a high enough level for the low-level handshake and routing protocols of other devices in range to carry its traffic.

None of this is in any way addressed in 5e (to the best of my knowledge). While in 4e, you had devices and systems specifically built to detect the wireless devices in range, and could use real-life sense to imagine how things should be working.
Generally, 4e Matrix was "okay, this and that is weird and you'll have to remember it works that way, otherwise just apply general logic"; 5e Matrix is "it works this way because that's how we think would be optimal for splitting limelight, leave your logic at the door".

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm not implying that it's easy to go signals dark.

But it IS easy to go Signal Dark. Just turn off all that crap that is broadcasting. My character does it all the time, in fact, when on a run, and only goes signal active when no other option is available - and none of her gear uses wireless bonuses, so there is no need for active signals on a run. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wothanoz]

A warehouse in the Barrens will have how many wireless devices in the night that aren't on a very short list of these allowed? Even the least secure of corporate facilities have precisely zero reasons not to pinpoint anyone wireless-enabled coming anywhere near, because building a system with narrow-beam receivers and a white list database is cheaper than even installing cam coverage. If you want, radiowaves are just like any other electromagnetic emission: there might be a million of lights in the city, and people or vehicles with light sources might be passing a secure zone every few seconds, but that won't make infiltrating that zone in a brightly glowing suit a good idea. Actually, wireless bonuses system is even sillier than that, because a brightly glowing suit just sends electromagnetic waves in all directions until they're blocked, while a Matrix-connected device even in a mesh network must maintain the signal on a high enough level for the low-level handshake and routing protocols of other devices in range to carry its traffic.

None of this is in any way addressed in 5e (to the best of my knowledge). While in 4e, you had devices and systems specifically built to detect the wireless devices in range, and could use real-life sense to imagine how things should be working.
Generally, 4e Matrix was "okay, this and that is weird and you'll have to remember it works that way, otherwise just apply general logic"; 5e Matrix is "it works this way because that's how we think would be optimal for splitting limelight, leave your logic at the door".

Again, there a realistic ways to reduce the chance of being detected. Burst transmissions, rather than constant transmission is one method. You can design the system to use a direct beam to transmit to orbital or flying receivers, which requires line of sight(but, radio line of sight can go through walls, unless they are built to defeat that). You can also skip the signal out over multiple frequencies, so that it appears like background noise. You can use frequences similar to the ones your target uses, but different encryption, so that if they do get a hit, they still don't know what it contains. And you're not breaking any decent encryption in real-time. If you need some hand-wavium to explain how running silent/hidden works, there you go.

EM radiation detectors are awesome. They really are, but they are susceptible to noise, even in the barrens. Electromagnetic radiation is simply too prevelant: it's likely that the structural material of the building will have wireless rfids in it, as well as simple distributed sensors for diagnostics. The drones that clean the place and do maintenance, the banks of computers and wireless devices used for inventory purposes, the guard's radios, the employees radios, the spider if present, etc. And even if you have them on the white list, even if they're cleared signals, they're still signals that are bombarding your sensor constantly, and you need something analyzing the returns and making sense out of them.

It's why ATC is so damned hard: Even though you have planes with transponders, with filed flight plans, with pilots, there is a lot of electromagnetic energy blazing away up there, and you have to pick up each plane. Powerful airborne radars such as those on AWACs can pick up returns from the tops of cars on a highway, and track them. So you tend to scrub out particular signals, but you still get noise the more powerful your sensors are. And the less powerful they are, the less likely they are to detect what you want. It's a simple given. For that matter, your narrow band sensors approach is still susceptible to jamming, as powerful enough baths of EM radition can burn'em out.

So you use a variety of methods to reduce you signature, to make you fade that much more into the background. That's easy enough to approximate as having a hidden matrix icon. Because the first thing they have to do is detect it: to sense that EM radiation and correctly identify it. Some roll should be necessary to detect a commlink using a frequency agile burst transmission. So that's the matrix perception test, and since the default is that everything is wireless, then it can detect a wide range of electromagnetic signals, but it needs a skill to know what you're looking at.

Now, personally, I run it that any device you buy though legitimate means has it's hidden functionality removed by default, especially if it is a restricted item. It lets them be tracked, and establishes ownership. You need to "jailbreak" the device in order to enable it's hidden functionality, or to equip it with the capability to run hidden. That's the test on pg 237. A group of 5 guys with (Logic 4, Hardware 4), a tool kit, and AR plans can do that in five hours. More skilled or smarter ones could probably do that quicker, in fact, the definitely can. A single Logic 4, Hardware 6 professional could be throwing 18 dice or more. I assume all equipment at char gen has been through this process. But I simply can't imagine corporations being such champions of freedom that they allow you to hide your matrix presence using their stuff. Because, who else ya gonna buy from? The whole idea of omni-present surveillance, erosion of civil liberties and economic domination of corporations that answer only to themselves is part and parcel for the genre.

Also, when detecting a hidden device, it's not just a single perception test gives them all away. You get a hit, so you ask if there are any hidden icons, which is yes. Each other hit can be used to get information about one of those icons. Then you make a separate test for each icon to identify it, selecting randomly from the icons out there. Well, considering just how much more powerful a good commlink is than most devices at resisting the matrix, that's not a given success. Commlinks might not hack, but they can damn sure be hard to hack.

It's not unplayable, and it makes it's own sort of sense. And that's good enough if you want to include the matrix in the game, and not just have it in the background. I think it's pretty obvious that in the 6th world, the Matrix is supposed to play a big role in everyone's life. To that end, I did enjoy how accessible SR4 made the matrix and hacking it. When your entire party is on the matrix, team work tests allow some big progress to be made on a lot of things. And then everyone is using the matrix and doing stuff with those rules, rather than skipping that section on the way to magic or equipment. The Hacker is special because he's REALLY good at it, not that he's the only one who can do it. And by allowing teamwork tests, everyone got in on the action sometimes, which is a completely radical departure from how the Matrix worked for three editions. Now, SR5 has shifted it back towards the older edition in terms of who can hack, which I think is terrible, but it's still not completely impossible to dabble in it, and computers users can still help(for example, if you're being attacked they can be used to make Matrix Perceptions and identify the decker within 100m of them who detected their hidden commlinks, then share that with the decker so he can go for the kill. Again, everyone gets in.

But that doesn't happen when we make it verboten and run everything dark. That might be fun for some, but I like the Matrix, and I always wanted technological mastery to actually matter as much as magic or combat. I never liked the old "and now we wait for the decker to do his thing by himself" Matrix. I like that an AR using hacker can actually make himself useful in a fire fight by means other than using a gun, instead leveraging his matrix skill to help the party, when we're all working together and engaged in combat. I like that non hackers can assist a hacker in matrix combat, so the decker doesn't have to pause the action. It actually does work, mechanically.

Don't want your devices trashed? Have a good commlink and run that, or Slave it to your buddy who is better at Matrix Defense than you, and let him defend you with a whole pile of dice. Heck, you even help out the decker, because if the enemy sleazes and fails against you, you can mark him, and share that information with the decker, who now can go at the enemy hacker without needing to detect him first(incase he's running hidden, too). It's not easy to just hack a decent commlink(if a eurocar westwind is a luxury car, then we can peg the "average" matrix threat somewhere around there, with the really secure stuff being very heavily protected. I don't expect every corporate spider to be running a drek hot deck, or be 20+ dice around the table. Elite ones, sure, but most of'em ? Probably not, they're expensive, and teams of them work better than one uber guy.

Different strokes for different folks, but I think the idea of just ignoring wireless matrix is just... bad. And the rules as written, do allow us to still use our wireless equipment AND not be instantly hacked and put on blast. Heck, if your EW guy is running a deck, then he can actually resist being identified for you: (Sleaze 5(6), Firewall 4(5), Data Processing 3, Attack 2, Logic 5, Willpower 5) is throwing 11 dice to resist being identified in the opposed test to identify your icons that are slaved to him, which can be pretty sweet to keep your commlinks from getting spotted in the first place, as well as marking the opposing decker.

I guess though, when you start having the EW guy use a deck, he's really a decker, just a more defensively specialized one, I suppose. But it still works.

[Wothanoz]

But it IS easy to go Signal Dark. Just turn off all that crap that is broadcasting. My character does it all the time, in fact, when on a run, and only goes signal active when no other option is available - and none of her gear uses wireless bonuses, so there is no need for active signals on a run. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Heh, ok, well, yeah. But it's not much harder to avoid detection and still keep your connection to the matrix! I can see the advantage for those with truly no need of the matrix, but otherwise it just makes deckers and riggers pretty much victims.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Heh, ok, well, yeah. But it's not much harder to avoid detection and still keep your connection to the matrix! I can see the advantage for those with truly no need of the matrix, but otherwise it just makes deckers and riggers pretty much victims.

Deckers ARE victims, especially if they are trying to protect the team's crap while they are trying to do THEIR job. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

An no, Non-Hackers cannot help a Hacker in Matrix Combat, because they need a Deck to do so. No Sleaze and No Attack makes Matrix Combat impossible, really. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
As for teams of Deckers working better than a Single one, your argument has a few flaws. If it is too expensive to equip a Good Spider with a Good Deck, it is atrocious to equip a team of Good Deckers with mediocre or atrocious decks. Spend the nuyen for the Good Spider to get him a hot deck. In the realm of Megacorps, it would be stupid to equip your Host Spiders with less than the best that you can afford.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Different strokes for different folks, but I think the idea of just ignoring wireless matrix is just... bad. And the rules as written, do allow us to still use our wireless equipment AND not be instantly hacked and put on blast. Heck, if your EW guy is running a deck, then he can actually resist being identified for you: (Sleaze 5(6), Firewall 4(5), Data Processing 3, Attack 2, Logic 5, Willpower 5) is throwing 11 dice to resist being identified in the opposed test to identify your icons that are slaved to him, which can be pretty sweet to keep your commlinks from getting spotted in the first place, as well as marking the opposing decker.

I guess though, when you start having the EW guy use a deck, he's really a decker, just a more defensively specialized one, I suppose. But it still works.

Wow... Your deck guy that you show above throwing 11 Dice is going to lose against a starting PC Hacker almost always. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hell, My Hacker STARTED with 14 Dice in Matrix Perception, and only got better from there. Her Hacking and EW were even higher than that. She was not particularly super optimized either, as I had a lot of ground I wanted to cover. The quality of opponents that a team faces is at least comparable to the quality of the PC's (at least they should be, they generally are for us, otherwise it is a cakewalk). I have really never seen a Host of Less than Rating 4 on a Run, and commonly they have been Rating 6-9. Now, I consider a Rating 6 Host about my normal limit for comfort, but can take on a Rating as high as 9 if I really push it and take some risks (statistically doable more often than not, but not something that the character will casually put her life on the line to go against). That is how it should be, in my opinion. A Rating 2 host (while common in game) is not a serious target worth running against, most of the time. Good for chump change from time to time (maybe), but not really any sort of threat (which CAN be fun, in and of itself, to be sure). Know the best way to keep your commlink from being spotted on a run? Turn it off. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Point is... The Hacker has to many other things to worry about. My character doesn't protect my team's gear, nor does she have any plans to do so in the future. And she is likely to put a bullet in a member's head if their signal discipline compromises their mission. And they know it, as she was pretty up front about it.

I agree with you that the Matrix was the most accessible in SR4A. I also agree that the regression to the system in SR5 was terrible. Is it usable? Sure. But Wireless bonuses are crap that will get you killed, and should be stepped on like the bugs that they are. They had potential, if used as part of a PAN (without need of being directly attached to the Matrix), but since that concept went the way of the dodo, well.... It will be interesting to see what Data Trails re-introduces.

[Wothanoz]

Deckers ARE victims, especially if they are trying to protect the team's crap while they are trying to do THEIR job. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

An no, Non-Hackers cannot help a Hacker in Matrix Combat, because they need a Deck to do so. No Sleaze and No Attack makes Matrix Combat impossible, really. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
As for teams of Deckers working better than a Single one, your argument has a few flaws. If it is too expensive to equip a Good Spider with a Good Deck, it is atrocious to equip a team of Good Deckers with mediocre or atrocious decks. Spend the nuyen for the Good Spider to get him a hot deck. In the realm of Megacorps, it would be stupid to equip your Host Spiders with less than the best that you can afford.

A non decker can make matrix perception tests to locate and identify icons. First thing you have to do is identify who is attacking you or in the area. Non deckers can do that. And they can do it well.

As to what the common deck is: I simply don't believe that the average security decker is running a deck more expensive than an a helicopter. Maybe security for a super-secure facility or host, but not your average corporate decker. Just like the average security guard isn't wearing full suits of armor and toting machineguns, and cybered up. Futhermore, given that a drek-hot deck only sets your limits and defensive stats. Again, I don't assume that the default corporate decker is throwing more than around 14-16 dice on average for tests. That's well within the limits of mid-range decks. Now, the real advantage corp deckers have is they don't have to run silent(though it's still a good idea), so they can get their bonus for hot sim.

Wow... Your deck guy that you show above throwing 11 Dice is going to lose against a starting PC Hacker almost always. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And then he goes FMD, and throws 16 dice to resist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's not a little dice-pool. And there's not really a way for starting PCs to get a really high dice pool, unless they are extremely specialized. Attribute 6, Skill 6 gives you 12, aptitude or exceptional(but not both at char gen) give you 13, and a cerebreal booster gives you +2 for Hack on the Fly, Brute Force, or Data Spike. So, that's 15 dice, for a specialist, with maybe 17 for skill specialization. Oh, Code Slinger for specific tests can get you to 19 at character generation. That's a 4 dice pool advantage, which is appreciable, but not enough to make it a given. And that's for a specialist compared to a non specialist.

Hell, My Hacker STARTED with 14 Dice in Matrix Perception, and only got better from there. Her Hacking and EW were even higher than that. She was not particularly super optimized either, as I had a lot of ground I wanted to cover. The quality of opponents that a team faces is at least comparable to the quality of the PC's (at least they should be, they generally are for us, otherwise it is a cakewalk). I have really never seen a Host of Less than Rating 4 on a Run, and commonly they have been Rating 6-9. Now, I consider a Rating 6 Host about my normal limit for comfort, but can take on a Rating as high as 9 if I really push it and take some risks (statistically doable more often than not, but not something that the character will casually put her life on the line to go against). That is how it should be, in my opinion. A Rating 2 host (while common in game) is not a serious target worth running against, most of the time. Good for chump change from time to time (maybe), but not really any sort of threat (which CAN be fun, in and of itself, to be sure). Know the best way to keep your commlink from being spotted on a run? Turn it off. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

14 dice in matrix perception isn't "average". That implies atleast attribute and skill 6. Code Slinger and Speciliazation can push you into dice pool 16. Exceptional or Aptitude can push you to 17 at char gen. 17 dice against 15 dice isn't a "gimme" for the Hacker vs the EW guy. I don't count hot-sim or the running silent modifiers, as those are dependent on situations. But the most dice a starting character can throw on an Brute Force, Data Spike or Hack on the Fly is around 19 dice, for a very specialized character. I don't mind that.

Point is... The Hacker has to many other things to worry about. My character doesn't protect my team's gear, nor does she have any plans to do so in the future. And she is likely to put a bullet in a member's head if their signal discipline compromises their mission. And they know it, as she was pretty up front about it.

That's why the EW guy is an EW guy, and not a hacker. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There's an actual Hacker, who is better at offensive tasks, but for securing the comm network? Sure, the EW guy does a great job.

I agree with you that the Matrix was the most accessible in SR4A. I also agree that the regression to the system in SR5 was terrible. Is it usable? Sure. But Wireless bonuses are crap that will get you killed, and should be stepped on like the bugs that they are. They had potential, if used as part of a PAN (without need of being directly attached to the Matrix), but since that concept went the way of the dodo, well.... It will be interesting to see what Data Trails re-introduces.

Like I said, there's no rules mechanics reason to believe that properly secure PANs of wireless devices are super vulnerable to deckers. A decent comlink is throwing 10-12 dice on resistance tests, and a good defender can pop 4 to 5 more dice on top of that. Using a deck for EW defense is useful for the purposes that you can get Sleaze attributes to make matrix perception harder to identify the silent icons, but if you're just worried about direct action, a decent comlink and EW guy gives you 16 or 17 dice.

Shrug. We do run mostly street level campaigns though, because I'm tired of the ridiculous starting characters who have half-a-million invested in gear, but no real background. That's silly to me.