[X] My Assistant

[Sendaz]

You do realize that Critias' Statement is very Tongue in Cheek, Yes? It is Sarcasm, at its best. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
He isn't seriously calling Bull out there. As was evident by Bull's Response. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

TJ, am pretty sure he knew it was light sarcasm.

I think he is taking issue with Critias poking fun at Apple for asking Bull about release dates, seeing as Bull doesn't really have any say in that particular matter.

Apple's point is certainly valid, however there really is no one here who could have answered that question in any case, so a little light humor by Critias to defuse it a bit was not unwarranted and like you said, Bull certainly took it in stride. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cochise]

You do realize that Critias' Statement is very Tongue in Cheek, Yes?

I am absolutely aware of that ...

It is Sarcasm, at its best. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, it's sarcasm at its worst

He isn't seriously calling Bull out there. As was evident by Bull's Response. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

What in the text you quoted from me made you think that I took his comment as something that tries to call out Bull? I suggest that you stop worrying about my reading comprehension and start working on your own.

*edit* I could have commented on Bull's response as well, but there simply was no need for doing so since Bull never expressed any interest in as to why I consider his actions as not being beneficial for the product or the perception of the people involved in its production here on this board ... and how that kind of behavior led to me spending my money "elsewhere". Critias however did ask me such a thing before ... and now he got his answer.*/edit*

[Sengir]

The difference really remains in having 250k or four times more?

Since the cost of the standard commodity basket remained the same, having twice the money as before is a huge change.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I am absolutely aware of that ...



No, it's sarcasm at its worst



What in the text you quoted from me made you think that I took his comment as something that tries to call out Bull? I suggest that you stop worrying about my reading comprehension and start working on your own.

*edit* I could have commented on Bull's response as well, but there simply was no need for doing so since Bull never expressed any interest in as to why I consider his actions as not being beneficial for the product or the perception of the people involved in its production here on this board. Critias however did ask me such a thing before ... and now he got his answer.*/edit*

No worries here... Your post just read as if you considered Critias as attacking Bull. If I am wrong, then I apologize. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fatum]

Apple's point is certainly valid, however there really is no one here who could have answered that question in any case

I know of at least one user.

That said, can we please move on from personal attacks against freelancers? I for one consider you all horrible dorks who will be well served when we nuke the planet, but I'm keeping silent about this.

[binarywraith]

I am, however, still going to be really curious as to what in the world is going on internally at Catalyst that is making their production so glacially slow. It's on par with the 4e publishing speed (2005 4e core, 2008 for all the core class books) but that had a full licensee changover from FanPro to CGL in the middle of it. What's going on to push back to that pace?

[Critias]

Which is a fair question, but jumping down Bull's throat and demanding an answer as though it were up to him, or somehow his fault, was the sort of thing -- and yes, I know it wasn't you that did it, 'wraith -- that I felt was worth a little gentle poke. Alas, Cochise seems to disagree. I am the worst of villains, for making a joke on an internet forum, apparently.

[Cochise]

Alas, Cochise seems to disagree.

I certainly disagree with the notion that such "gentle poking" is helpful to the overall situation and ...

I am the worst of villains, for making a joke on an internet forum, apparently.

... this kind of deliberate twisting my words to make yet another "poke" defies your previous claims about genuine interest as to why I expressed displeasure with actions / behavior of freelancers on this board. In fact it's just a further illustration of what I have seen before and what I still dislike. I'm not "offended" on a personal level by that, nor am I "surprised" but if I hadn't already made my decision of no longer supporting the P&P product line - a decision mainly influenced by behavior of freelancers other than you - you'd have given me that reason now. Make of that whatever pleases you but don't ever expect to get a honest/serious answer from me to any of your questions with "genuine interest" from this point on.

[Machiavelli]

I think we can agree, that your kinds of humor doesn´t fit to each other?

[apple]

Which is a fair question, but jumping down Bull's throat and demanding an answer as though it were up to him, or somehow his fault, was the sort of thing -- and yes, I know it wasn't you that did it, 'wraith -- that I felt was worth a little gentle poke. Alas, Cochise seems to disagree. I am the worst of villains, for making a joke on an internet forum, apparently.

Question is still open: WHY do the core books take so long, when novels and PDFs do not have any influence on the shedule? Or is it a simple case of "I dont know"?

SYL

[Cochise]

I think we can agree, that your kinds of humor doesn´t fit to each other?

No we can't agree on that either ... because my dislikes are not related to which kind of humor is used but rather about who uses it for/against whom. A non-freelancer using sarcasm in that manner is a "prick" at worst with no impact on how anyone feels about buying "the product" since either action is unrelated to the other. I'm more than often just that kind of "prick" myself and usually take that kind of "humor" very well.

A freelancer doing the same is bound to be judged by different standards because the actions are no longer unrelated. And once "business" is involved at least my humor gets cut rather short rather quickly.

So, if anything we disagree on the "just a normal forum user as everybody else" status of freelancers and what we deem as an appropriate interaction between people that are in some sort of "customer to vendor" relation.

This might sound unfair - and it is to a certain degree - but that's the "ugly" truth. And once someone asks for my honest opinion - even if that question was raised in the past - but then tries to twist a given answer against me in an unwarranted attempt of being "funny" he can no longer expect me to treat him "fair" either.

[Machiavelli]

I understand. It is difficult.

[sk8bcn]

Form a forum user to forum user:

Cochise, quit it, we don't care about your grief, it's annoying as hell. Just solve it per pm.

[Cochise]

Form a forum user to forum user:

Cochise, quit it, we don't care about your grief, it's annoying as hell. Just solve it per pm.

From forum user to forum user: I don't care about you making generalized claims for others when you only have the right to speak for yourself. Nor do I care about your misconceptions concerning my "grief" (there's no such thing involved on my end) or you being annoyed. I haven't had and still don't have any reason for taking anything to PM here ... and given the situation there isn't even anything that could be solved via PM.

You wanted me to stop here? Then why didn't you take that to PM instead?

[Critias]

Question is still open: WHY do the core books take so long, when novels and PDFs do not have any influence on the shedule? Or is it a simple case of "I dont know"?

SYL

It's not only that we don't know, it's that it's not at all up to us, and even if it was, and even if we knew, we couldn't answer because NDAs keep us from being allowed to discuss backstage discussions and ongoing projects and stuff.

Jason and Randall and Whoever Else Is Up There, they're the ones that decide when to go public with a cover (I couldn't show off the cover artwork to my new novel until they did, and I still can't show off the parts of it they didn't show off on tumblr), they're the ones that decide when to go public with chatter about an upcoming book (I can't geek out about who I'm going to be in an anthology with, because they haven't gone public with the full list of contributors). Bull can't tell you what the hold up is on anything but Missions stuff, and even then, depending on the hold up, he couldn't tell you. Right? If he had someone writing an adventure and that person was past deadline, what, you expect Bull to point a finger? You want to talk about shitty behavior, that would be it, wouldn't it?

He's not the editor in chief of upcoming core books. He's the Missions guy. He might also be writing in some of those core books, but even if so (and I honestly don't know) that's all the more reason he can't really say anything, right? What's he supposed to do, throw another writer under the bus for being late with a deadline, throw the editor under the bus for taking too long, throw the layout guy under the bus for being slow with his job, throw the line developer under the bus for moving slowly, throw a printer under the bus, or a distributor, or the artwork folks?

Even if he knew, it would be absurdly unprofessional to say anything (and we can all clearly see how important impeccable professionalism is, right?), it would violate NDAs for him to say anything, and it's not his place to say anything.

It's like accosting a busboy at a restaurant, and demanding he tell you why your food is taking so long. He's not the executive chef or a sous chef or a line chef, heck, he's not even your waiter. He's just the person you see outside the kitchen. He's available, so he gets the question, but what's being asked is so far out of his wheelhouse it's kind of silly.

So, yeah, sorry. I poked a little fun. I apologize if I hurt your feelings in doing so, Apple, since apparently I was way out of line with it, but...it struck me as a little weird. Y'all know what kind of contributions we make, those of us that stop by the forums. You know who's in charge of stuff, and who isn't. So going to the "isn't" and asking a question like that, that's that far above his pay grade, that's that much of an NDA violation? Yeah. I gave it a poke.

[apple]

It's not only that we don't know, it's that it's not at all up to us, and even if it was, and even if we knew, we couldn't answer because NDAs keep us from being allowed to discuss backstage discussions and ongoing projects and stuff.

Which is a perfectly fine answer.

SYL

[binarywraith]

It's not only that we don't know, it's that it's not at all up to us, and even if it was, and even if we knew, we couldn't answer because NDAs keep us from being allowed to discuss backstage discussions and ongoing projects and stuff.

Jason and Randall and Whoever Else Is Up There, they're the ones that decide when to go public with a cover (I couldn't show off the cover artwork to my new novel until they did, and I still can't show off the parts of it they didn't show off on tumblr), they're the ones that decide when to go public with chatter about an upcoming book (I can't geek out about who I'm going to be in an anthology with, because they haven't gone public with the full list of contributors). Bull can't tell you what the hold up is on anything but Missions stuff, and even then, depending on the hold up, he couldn't tell you. Right? If he had someone writing an adventure and that person was past deadline, what, you expect Bull to point a finger? You want to talk about shitty behavior, that would be it, wouldn't it?

He's not the editor in chief of upcoming core books. He's the Missions guy. He might also be writing in some of those core books, but even if so (and I honestly don't know) that's all the more reason he can't really say anything, right? What's he supposed to do, throw another writer under the bus for being late with a deadline, throw the editor under the bus for taking too long, throw the layout guy under the bus for being slow with his job, throw the line developer under the bus for moving slowly, throw a printer under the bus, or a distributor, or the artwork folks?

Even if he knew, it would be absurdly unprofessional to say anything (and we can all clearly see how important impeccable professionalism is, right?), it would violate NDAs for him to say anything, and it's not his place to say anything.

It's like accosting a busboy at a restaurant, and demanding he tell you why your food is taking so long. He's not the executive chef or a sous chef or a line chef, heck, he's not even your waiter. He's just the person you see outside the kitchen. He's available, so he gets the question, but what's being asked is so far out of his wheelhouse it's kind of silly.

So, yeah, sorry. I poked a little fun. I apologize if I hurt your feelings in doing so, Apple, since apparently I was way out of line with it, but...it struck me as a little weird. Y'all know what kind of contributions we make, those of us that stop by the forums. You know who's in charge of stuff, and who isn't. So going to the "isn't" and asking a question like that, that's that far above his pay grade, that's that much of an NDA violation? Yeah. I gave it a poke.

Critias, the only issue is that we then get grief from the same people for throwing the entity with overall responsibility, the company itself, under the bus when things are late and not up to spec.

It's all good, though, I certainly don't hold this kind of stuff against people with no control over it.

[Bull]

Man, if you think any of us are doing this for the paycheck...

[Voran]

Heh. Whaat you aren't rolling in dough?!

[Sendaz]

Heh. Whaat you aren't rolling in dough?!

Nah, the closest Bull ever came was when he got that job briefly at the bakery.

Sadly it turned out even there he couldn't raise the dough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Voran]

Nah, the closest Bull ever came was when he got that job briefly at the bakery.

Sadly it turned out even there he couldn't raise the dough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

groaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wothanoz]

You know, I never knew what the love affair of 3rd edition was. If I'm not mistaken, it still had target numbers and open tests and all that nonsense, right? Vehicles were still pretty much immune to everything, so you either ran away from that steel lynx or you brought back a freaking rocket launcher to blow it up. Decking was generally something that seemed best to handle as an NPC or entire party thing, rather than having a decker. Rigging was crazy. Seriously, rigging in 3rd. I still have my comp copy of R^3 hanging around somewhere, and while the rules were delicious, they were a lot of crunch, and still had the intrinsic problem of the old SR vehicle/character split. I probably spent the most time with it(I owned, but didn't play, 1st edition) of all the editions, yet I hold no particular love of it. And that stupid ruthy polymer crap that was annoying as all heck. Seriously. Screw that stuff.

Fourth edition rejuvenated the setting for me. It went a long way towards making firearms and vehicles make sense, I loved the bucket-o-dice, universal TN of 5, and I felt that the changes to hacking and rigging were awesome, and had great potential. Gone was the NPC decker as a concept: now everyone was using their commlinks to do stuff and roll dice, and we had a lot of fun. The lack of support and real life killed our play as people moved across countries and became dance instructors and geologists. But now, everything kinda worked, and I liked it. Sure, there were problems, but... hey, it was a new direction, and I felt the dramatic change in mechanics was and is superior to 1st-3rd's mechanics. Then fifth came out.

So far, I'm really happy with fifth's rules(Setting wise, I kinda always feel stuck in the 60s, but hey, that's me), and I like them. I dislike the changes to rigging and decking/hacking: I always hated the "class system" opposed by making Decking and Rigging speciality roles that required considerable invesment. Atleast unskilled or low skilled, or non riggers, can actually drive cars while being shot at in a parking deck. That's nice. But I hate that commlinks and deckers were seperated. Sure, I get that it was really cheap and easy for everyone to hack or rig, but honestly? I liked that. It stopped those rules from being so arcane, the role of one guy who knew those rules, and everyone else just ignored them.

I'm not even mad at wireless. I actually like it, but I also try to keep it sane: DNI connections can be networked for security. Which, I felt was kind of obvious from the rules, but it's not really explicitly stated. But I like it, it's a mechanical basis for someone to have multiple data-jacks: my "rigger(street level, so I have the skills, but no ware, a scratch built RCC and one fly-spy. w00t.) has three datajacks(one at the base of his skull, two in left temple) and on our last run, I used all of them(One to commlink, and both my guns were hard wired to me) to considerable effect. So, I'm cool with that.

As far as release schedules and editing? That's always been a problem: anyone remember how rules in SSC were included in flavor text? That was nice. There was some real ambiguous stuff in the past, and I don't expect it to change. I also, as mentioned, consider my self kinda stuck in the 60s, and didn't particularly like some of the directions SR started taking for a while in fluff and meta-plot. But that's ok.

Because at the core of it, it's still a game about omni-present corporate domination of all aspects of life and the struggle with that. We're runners, an ironic creature: we both rebel and attack the very same entities that support our existence. Without the dystopian corporate oppression, there would be no need for shadowy quasi-criminals who can be plausibly denied.

And one thing always remains the same, no matter the edition: Once someone remembers they have demolitions and 20 kilos of C4, they want to blow up everything.

[Machiavelli]

Correct. In the next session i am gonna blow up all sections of the local gang in one big bang. Kingpin-style baby^^

[Wothanoz]

Correct. In the next session i am gonna blow up all sections of the local gang in one big bang. Kingpin-style baby^^

I actually stopped our demo guy from buying more explosives. I thought we had enough. They nixed my plan to use explosives to cut through the floor above the target. So I figured a different plan.

Then we went with the original, modified, plan. Turns out our mage CAN levitate us to the roof-top. Then we had to improvise.


Also, duct-tape, Stealth RFIDs and flasbangs on the doorsi nto the stairwell turns out to be great for nuetralizing guards.

[freudqo]

You know, I never knew what the love affair of 3rd edition was. If I'm not mistaken, it still had target numbers and open tests and all that nonsense, right?

Well, obviously if you call target numbers nonsense, you might indeed not know the love affair. I think it pretty much sums up why a non negligible people stayed there : because many liked floating TN and think attribute+skill+dicepool mod vs TN5 are poor mechanics for various reasons notably their perception of reality. There's also the ambiance that's said to be quite different. But from what I've understood, if SR4 went for streamlining rules [EDIT] without changing floating TN[\EDIT], making rigging, decking, infiltrating or social skills more similar to each other and to the rest of the game (as magic underwent such change from 2nd to 3rd), suppressing one or two tests in combat, there wouldn't be such a cleavage. People would be complaining the same way they complained about grounding and spell locks having disappeared, saying now how open tests were awesome and how the manoeuvre score was realistic (yes, they would).