[X] My Assistant

[Not of this Worl...]

Whatever. I'm the old grognard it appeals to and I like to pretend as much as possible that 4th edition never happened.

everything that restores Shadowrun to Cyberpunk + High Fantasy is good with me.

[Fatum]

Nanotech and wireless existed before 4e. And, actually, it's wires that is the lost tech in 5e.

[binarywraith]

Nanotech and wireless existed before 4e. And, actually, it's wires that is the lost tech in 5e.

They did. It was the existence of consumer-grade nanoforges that was the tripping point for me.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

They did. It was the existence of consumer-grade nanoforges that was the tripping point for me.

Logical Extension of Technology... *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[binarywraith]

Logical Extension of Technology... *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, but once you can do that, you go from 'keeping the populace as drones because they're cheaper than robots' to 'keeping the populace as miserable slaves just to do it'... which I suppose fits, but a lot of people around here seem to not like the neo-anarchist part of the game as much as I do.

[Not of this Worl...]

Logical Extension of Technology... *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Future magic / * hand wavum*

A future where autonomous AIs on every block can run autonomous nano-forges to replicate any object is NOT cyberpunk.

You can have both AIs & replication technology in a future cyberpink setting like FFG's Android universe where human labor is still in demand because its either cheap & easily available plus needed for a few high importance jobs.

In Cyberpunk technology AUGMENTS humanity
in Transhumanism it makes it obsolete and REPLACES humanity

so it was absolutely the right choice for a Cyberpunk setting. The logical extension of technology is now free to go in a different direction. Just like the Matrix does in every edition.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Future magic / * hand wavum*

A future where autonomous AIs on every block can run autonomous nano-forges to replicate any object is NOT cyberpunk.

You can have both AIs & replication technology in a future cyberpink setting like FFG's Android universe where human labor is still in demand because its either cheap & easily available plus needed for a few high importance jobs.

In Cyberpunk technology AUGMENTS humanity
in Transhumanism it makes it obsolete and REPLACES humanity

so it was absolutely the right choice for a Cyberpunk setting. The logical extension of technology is now free to go in a different direction. Just like the Matrix does in every edition.

Yes, and eventually, Cyberpunk becomes Transhumanism. Logical Extension of the Genre.
It is a quantum step back to reverse technologies progress, doubly so in a game. It is completely unnatural. If you like that sort of stuff, then go ahead... Others do not appreciate it as much. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So, for me at least, the direction that SR5 went was NOT the absolute right choice for a cyberpunk setting that already had already introduced elements of Transhumanism (note it was still cyberpunk, just moving along the technology curve a bit).

[Voran]

We almost hit Ghost in the Shell level stuff, but they decided to make those zombies instead.

[Sengir]

I think it's a leap from the beginnings of nanotechnology to a post-scarcity economy, just as having shadowrunners as augmented or awakened outliers does not bode the imminence of the singularity. Even before nanotech was introduced into the books as 'ware, it was implied to be used extensively for a lot of manufacturing and construction. In other words, nanotech and geneware were marginal augmentations that didn't have to be anything more than what they were.

The beginnings of nanotechnology were the "marginal augmentations" and use in manufacture and construction you described. Then 4th went full Drexler and introduced nanoware which was cheaper and better than its cyber equivalent, spray-on electeonic devices, desktop nano manufacturing (although with handwave DRM), and in general used "nanites" as a lazy excuse for everything.

Omnipresent magical nanobots means omnipresent means of production (and environmental cleaning, health...) resulting in an egalitarian utopia, not the vast imbalance between megacorps and outcasts.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The beginnings of nanotechnology were the "marginal augmentations" and use in manufacture and construction you described. Then 4th went full Drexler and introduced nanoware which was cheaper and better than its cyber equivalent, spray-on electeonic devices, desktop nano manufacturing (although with handwave DRM), and in general used "nanites" as a lazy excuse for everything.

Omnipresent magical nanobots means omnipresent means of production (and environmental cleaning, health...) resulting in an egalitarian utopia, not the vast imbalance between megacorps and outcasts.

Except that it was merely introduced and becoming available... such things do not happen overnight. Yes, it was pushing towards Transhumanism, but that is the next step, so... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sengir]

Except that it was merely introduced and becoming available...

Take a look at the cost and Avail ratings for nanoware...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Take a look at the cost and Avail ratings for nanoware...

I have... the world had yet to truly be affected, though. It was coming, to be sure, but it was not there quite yet.

[Glyph]

The thing with the nanites was that they still degraded, so you were a far cry from Aristoi (the novel) levels of effectiveness, or Star Trek-style replicators. Honestly, I would not have minded a milder ret-con, where unforeseen problems with nanoforges arose, or a few geneware modifications had adverse long-term effects. The fluff text did emphasize that this technology was being released too quickly and with too little testing, and that some of the people using it were little more than guinea pigs. But the full-scale ret-con is jarringly bad. The nanoware zombie apocalypse ranks up there with "your two DNI-linked augmentations need to connect to the internet to be able to work together" in lameness.

[Medicineman]

I would not have minded a milder ret-con, where unforeseen problems with nanoforges arose,..... But the full-scale ret-con is jarringly bad. The nanoware zombie apocalypse ranks up there with "your two DNI-linked augmentations need to connect to the internet to be able to work together" in lameness.

+1

Hough!
Medicineman

[Voran]

I wasn't a huge fan of the "secret RFID minitags that stealth squeal on you from inside your gut" possibilities.

[Sengir]

The thing with the nanites was that they still degraded, so you were a far cry from Aristoi (the novel) levels of effectiveness, or Star Trek-style replicators.

Nanites only degrade without a hive to sustain them, which is why nanoforges include such a hive...and it does not even require a controlled environment within a closed container.

The theory is simple: technicians seed a prepared site with stockpiles of requisite feedstocks and hard nanite colonies coordinated by onsite nanohive units. The nanites combine the materials present and mold the structure per the nanohive’s commands. Nanotech construction usually requires several breeds of nanites working in concert and heavy supervision. The day where someone might use nanite “magic beans” to create the beanstalk of their dreams has yet to arrive, but current technology is sophisticated enough to rapidly erect small structures with minimal human labor.

So universal assemblers as seen in Star Trek or The Diamond Age absolutely are a thing. Self-replicating nanites as in Aristoi used to be not possible, sadly Stolen Souls dropped the ball and declared the infected nanites to be capable of that -- which brings up another reason nanites need to go, the writers just don't think about what an Arakis-sized can of worms they're handling there.

Honestly, I would not have minded a milder ret-con, where unforeseen problems with nanoforges arose, or a few geneware modifications had adverse long-term effects. The fluff text did emphasize that this technology was being released to quickly and with too little testing, and that some of the people using it were little more than guinea pigs. But the full-scale ret-con is jarringly bad.

A retcon means retroactively changing the continuity, in other words re-writing what previously was established history. Declaring that Dunkelzahn was assassinated after three years in office or nanites never were developed would be examples of a retcon. Introducing a new element which changes the rules from now on forward isn't a retcon.

[Medicineman]

is pretending that Skinlink never existed a Retcon or not ?

with a Retdance
Medicineman

[Not of this Worl...]

is pretending that Skinlink never existed a Retcon or not ?

with a Retdance
Medicineman

Would a hand wavum explanation like 4th's sudden UMT for magic suffice?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Would a hand wavum explanation like 4th's sudden UMT for magic suffice?

Only if it moves the world forward instead of backwards...

[Medicineman]

Would a hand wavum explanation like 4th's sudden UMT for magic suffice?

the UMT is no retcon its a moving forward from archaic rules that made no sense
( like the OD&D Priest can use only Blunt Weapons (like a Mace) because he isn't allowed to shed blood )

with a forward Dance
Medicineman

[Czar Eggbert]

is pretending that Skinlink never existed a Retcon or not ?

with a Retdance
Medicineman

Or, if you want to go Old School, Decking Naked.


The Eggman

[Not of this Worl...]

the UMT is no retcon its a moving forward from archaic rules that made no sense
( like the OD&D Priest can use only Blunt Weapons (like a Mace) because he isn't allowed to shed blood )

with a forward Dance
Medicineman

Removing content & meaningful choice is forward? Now its just silly.

we get it, 4th edition was the pinnacle for you. An edition ago I was the 3rd edition guy complaining how we were losing traditions, cyberware suddenly bcame hackable, mechanics were a messy rip off of nWoD, etc. Changes happen in every edition including from 3rd to 4th. You like your rationalizations for changes and don't like when new ones are given to the rules you liked.

so don't play 5th

As someone who never stopped playing 3rd through the 4th era of Shadowrun, I'm very glad the 5th gave me common ground with the current generation of Shadowrun players at my FLGS. The game is more active than ever.

P.S. - in my games the 4th edition retcons never happened. System Failure until the 5th edition is not canon at my table.

[Fatum]

A future where autonomous AIs on every block can run autonomous nano-forges to replicate any object is NOT cyberpunk.

Oh, it sure is cyberpunk as long as it's cheaper to get a bunch of SINless trogs produce said object.
In fact, autonomous AIs with nanofaxes are no different than fully automated factories in their impact on the setting.

In Cyberpunk technology AUGMENTS humanity
in Transhumanism it makes it obsolete and REPLACES humanity

On the contrary, one of the major themes of cyberpunk is technology making baseline humanity obsolete, with the rich becoming not just the same people, except with more money, but actually superiour in intellect, personal power, charisma and every other meaningful characteristic to an ordinary guy.
In fact, technology augmenting humanity and making its lot better is the core principle of transhumanism: "the tech will make all our problems go away" - that's their motto. Cyberpunk, on the other hand, explores the darker side of innovation: "the tech will make our problems only worse".

Would a hand wavum explanation like 4th's sudden UMT for magic suffice?

But the UMT was mentioned numerous times before 4e.

Changes happen in every edition including from 3rd to 4th. You like your rationalizations for changes and don't like when new ones are given to the rules you liked.

so don't play 5th

I like my rationalizations to make in-game sense. If that rationalization is "well everyone agreed to just switch over to a new Matrix protocol with no backwards compatibility that has no defined rules for legitimate users to access their devices and requires two devices right next to each other have access to the Matrix to interact", well, excuse me if I call bulldrek. Second Crash, dissonant virus, superAIs dashing it out, magically changed EMP nukes? Yeah, that's the motivation for change I can believe in, especially when that change is backwards compatible.

[Medicineman]

Removing content & meaningful choice is forward? Now its just silly.

see ,considering the Crunchdifference between Shaman and Hermetic and later the other Traditions
is for You a meaningful choice and for me its a prehestorical Rule in the same category as a D&D Clerics Weapon restriction
If you don't see that we have different Views on this topic than clearly You are silly, not me

we get it, 4th edition was the pinnacle for you.

not quite
the 4A Ed was better than the 5the Ed, (and I'm playing both at conventions and at Home)
No the Pinnacle is a Mix from SR4A and 5th Ed
( F.E. Skilllevel of 9(10) is best. 4A's 6 (7) levels is to few and 5th Ed 12(13) is too many Levels )

with a mixed Dance
Medicineman

[Voran]

Side note, I've always kind of wondered why we needed a version update. Was 4th too bloated or something? I get the dice pools could get silly, and the commlinks as cyberdecks, but otherwise what prevented just a continuation of that line? I mean, we joke about the Rigger book, but now we're changing editions before we even cover all the stuff from the previous version. Do new editions stimulate new entry of funds/players as opposed to adding stuff on?

Like remember back in the day when things like DnD lasted for like...10 years, now we're looking at new editions every 5 or so? Will we be moving to new editions every 2 years for games ?