[X] My Assistant

[Machiavelli]

Currently we had a discussion about haters (especially about SR5) on Dumpshock and how it will cause the death of our beloved forum. Here is the statement of Deathstrobe that made me feel to comment:

Obviously, some people's personal biases are blinding them to the actual state of SR.

The official forums didn't kill dumpshock. Dumpshock killed dumpshock by being so negative about everything Shadowrun. You guys make the freelancers not want to come here. You make new users not want to come here. Obviously there is no reason to talk about SR here, because the talk that Dumpshock likes to talk about is the death of Shadowrun.

SR4 is still being supported, strangely enough. So clearly if SR5 is a money grab to force everyone to buy new books, CGL is doing a terrible job at forcing you to buy SR5 when things like Battle of Manhattan is SR4 compatible.

I don't know if you've been keeping up with other RPGs outside of Shadowrun, but all RPGs have editing issues. I can't imagine CGL is able to single handedly solve all the issues of the entire hobby. Cut them some slack and discuss the problems and how to solve or interpret the issues rather than spew out vial that doesn't help anyone.

Lastly, Shadowrun is more popular than ever. SR books are almost always on RPGDriveThru's top 10 best sellers, as well as core books are often rewarded with platinum status. the shadowrun subreddit is huge, and there are 2 shadowrun play subreddits. CGL's forums run poorly, I assume because they're getting a lot of traffic.

If you don't like SR5, that's fine. But by not supporting it, you are willingly being left behind. You can't stick your head in the ground and expect people to come to you. What are you going to do? Have the same rule discussions about SR4 that have already been talked about a million times over?

@DeathStrobe: Hate is quite a strong word and I think you see it from a wrong perspective. I assume I can speak for all of us at DS, that it is quite the opposite. We love the game. We love it so much, that we are sometimes over-protective. The game was part of our youth as well as it a part of our life now. We saw it growing up, we supported its first steps and we spent a lot of money, so that it could become what it is now. We donated for the kickstarter-project, so that “Shadowrun Returns” could be realized, we kept the game and the corresponding discussions alive and supported fellow gamers with our experience - at times as the “official SR-forum” was not even existing.

The community is small, we are nerds, but we are proud of it and I think that what we have, the community, is more than a “customer-seller” relationship. Shadowrun is not only a product, for us it is a big part of our life (because it sucks up a lot of our free-time). The problem is, that if you are involved so tight into something, it becomes a personal matter. And because we care, it hurts if we see that something might go wrong. Like parents, that only try to protect their children and therefore sometimes become overprotective (and also too critical), we simply cannot stand beside, silently watching what is happening. We have the urge to do at least “something”, which is commenting. We feel that we have the right to tell the devs what we think, and unfortunately we don´t have a personality structure, that makes us bow or back back down, just because “officials” are around.

We are the ones, that keep them on the ground because we feel equal. We are the ones who tell the officials what they messed up with and what needs to be done. We are the hard but honest truth. We are Dumpshock. If they cannot stand the critic, they really shouldn´t take place in the official discussions, they shouldn´t host the forums, they shouldn´t be available at all. IMHO this is the price you have to pay, if you go public in a small but enthusiastic community. Yes we are hard discussion partners, but we have never been unfair. And if we have been so, we apologized for it. For us, such discussions are not “nerds vs. developers” for us it is “fans vs. fans that can really make a change”. We are on their side and the only thing we demand, is that our opinion is heard, that our opinion is taken serious.

I personally appreciate every Line-dev that has the balls to come here and if they feel offended, they might have the same fals impression you got. This was surely not intented.

Sorry for the long post. Here is a 9-gag-potato(e). *imagine potatoe-picture*

[sk8bcn]

Positive post.

Though that would be the way I perceive DS:

"Hi, we are SR-lovers, but we are the grognards old guard.

SR-writer, if you wanna see every gamesystem failure, story developpement failure, editing failure, come on Dumpshock. That is what makes us believe that DS is a legitimate place for Shadowrun-lovers/writers.

You'll get the review of your work filled with hatred. We'll tell you that your the most idiotic guy in the world (you wrote War, didn't ya?), that you don't know geography at all (couldn't you google earth Bogota?), that you're an amateur (can't proofread?), that you're book is unplayable (even for reason like costs differe from 1 page to another), you kill SR slowly (SR5 books just can't be sold, with the shit it is), you're unable to keep the storyline (that retconning!), you don't know future (go back to cyberpunk or transhumanism, depending on who posts), you've got no clue on computers (matrix!), you could have kept the exceptionnal system we once had (SR2/3/4 depending on who you talk too), your story arcs are just the same since 20 years (rahhh bodysnatchers...), so actually, that you got no clue at all.

We'll be a bit nicer with the past (like for exemple, story flaws from the beginning -NAN for exemple-) but that's nostalgia.

We don't understand that you don't hear what we've got to say, because we're right (-sk8bcn's note: and that's probably true-), but we can't behave differently than negative old grognards and we don't understand why this has more weight in the balance rather than the quality of our ideas.

So now, come back and adapt!

[Machiavelli]

Ähm....yeah. This is ALSO a way you can see it.

[Not of this Worl...]

The change from 3rd edition to 4thwas not less butal on the forums. I continued to play 3rd edition but saw no reason to hangout in the hostile environment which Dumpshock was. There weren't much in the way of other SR communities to go to back then.

now we have the Shadowrun.com and Shadowrun Tabletop communities to compete. Even though I am among the oldest of grognards, I am tempted to join them more and here less.

[Oracle]

Please name me one nerd-interest, were there is no edition wars....

[Machiavelli]

Besides, even if there is hate (and i know, i am one of them), you do not have to participate. If you have proper questions, you get the most competent aswers on DS. If you ask for opinons, and whine afterwards that no one shared your side of view, you should not go to the Internet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Edit:...and if you gome to DS as a Line Developer // official and want the people celebrate you for what you are, you are indeed in the wrong place. ^^

[sk8bcn]

Besides, even if there is hate (and i know, i am one of them), you do not have to participate. If you have proper questions, you get the most competent aswers on DS.

This is sure! I've seldom saw so much knowledge about a game.

That's DS very strong point.

But I also see why newcommers wouldn't come here. They go were the news are the hottest and that's were the devs go. And devs don't go here 'cause they get bullied.


The only freelancer I see here are those whom DS has a very positive opinion about (Critias, Bull, Wakanashi are those I think about).


I guess Ancient History departure dosn't help too.

[Wounded Ronin]

I don't think I've ever participated in an acrimonious rules related argument here. Reading them from the sidelines they usually make me laugh. If people were like me they'd just think they were funny.

The bottom line is that some of the guys on DS have thought about the rules for years, including very specific details about statistical outcomes, and know them better than someone who might have been contracted within relatively recent history to work on the game.

So naturally they flip when the official guy hasn't thought of everything they have.

I think these things go together. Here you have people who really know the rules, but because they know and care, they're going to flip if something official falls short for them in some way.

If I were a dev I'd come here anonymously to get the best advice on rules and statistics first before writing anything. I guess it's like going to see Yoda or something.

[Umidori]

I started out really, really, really, really excited about SR5.

I came around Dumpshock more than I had in six months. I browsed the Shadowrun official website, which I'd never bothered to do before. I read the sneak-peek story snippets, and I riddled my way through the puzzles that gave access to new excerpts. I got the preview PDFs and was like, "Some problems here and there, but they're previews - the problems will get fixed, and aside from those, this looks really promising!" and I was still really excited. I lost sleep thinking about the new edition, speculating, geeking out.

Then the actual release date came around. I borrowed money to be able to buy the PDF without having to wait for my next paycheck to come in. I got a hold of the file and I tore into the book, and was still excited. "There are a lot of errors and omissions, but those will get fixed! This is a good first step! I can't wait to play! My SR group can't wait to play!"

Then as I dug deeper and deeper, I kept finding more problems. "Wait... that CAN'T be the end of the rules for this subject! They leave so much unexplained! Did I miss a section elsewhere in the book that explains this?" Entire game systems simply didn't make sense or simply were incomplete to the point of barely being functional for the most basic of uses, and certainly not functional for anything remotely complicated. New changes and additions didn't make sense, broke suspension of disbelief, and seemed forced and unnecessary. Rules contradicted each other. "Ehh, they'll fix these! Give them some time to recover from the launch! They'll correct things in a few months."

Fixes never came. Corrections never came. And the more time I spent waiting for them, the more time I had to work around them to play the game, the more frustrated I felt. I started out with great expectations, but ended up feeling like I had wasted my money. The complaints I had of the system went unheard, uncommented on, unfixed - even now, much, much later.

None of that feeling of disappointment comes from Dumpshock.

I and many others on Dumpshock started out quite fervently optimistic. It is the flaws of the game system that turned me and those like me to bitter disappointment. It is the failure of CGL to respect their customers, by putting out badly made material with glaring, obvious flaws and then refusing to fix those flaws years down the line. They made a few token comments well after the fact, saying they were going to work on improving the quality of their materials and how they get produced, but it was far too little, far too late.

~Umi

[Umidori]

People complain about Dumpshock being full of stubborn, grumpy folks. Well, in a sense it is. But that's missing the point and the nature of the community.

We're not the newbie boards here to attract fresh customers for CGL - that's not our job, and if it were, we'd expect to be paid for it. No, we're a community of dedicated, knowledgeable, fiercely involved regulars. We come here to hash out the nitty gritty, and we don't sugar coat things. If something is a turd, we call it a turd, without stopping to polish it first. We're not shills, we're not a PR team, we're not marketers. We're the people who play the damn game so much we know it better than many of the Freelancers do. We're going to assess the system critically, from the standpoint of hardcore players who take the time to deeply analyze and pore through the rules and continously push the envelope. Because that's just who we are. That's just what we do.

If you value deep analysis, this is the place for you. If you're more interested in cheerleading for CGL and glossing over the flaws and imperfections of the system, you're in the wrong place.

~Umi

[Fatum]

Why Dumphock is not a good place for Developers? That's an easy one.
Because dumpshock regulars are not the target audience. There's a whole lot of complaining, but not nearly enough buying books going on here. You say the dumpshocked are knowledgeable, and that could be true - but who the hell cares? That doesn't sell books, nor improve them in the eyes of the target audience. So yeah, the new fluff contradicts some obscure book from the previous edition that is long out of print, big fragging deal, no one who matters will notice. Professionalism is about being paid for your work, not about maintaining any standards or anything.

Please name me one nerd-interest, were there is no edition wars....

Draft beer sampling.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Draft beer sampling.

I beg to differ... Seen many a preference war over draft beers.

[Fatum]

A-ha! Not edition wars, though!

[kzt]

Professionalism is about being paid for your work, not about maintaining any standards or anything.

Really? Can you cite the dictionary that defines professionalism like that? A common definition of professionalism is something like this: "the skill, good judgment, and polite behavior that is expected from a person who is trained to do a job well".

The word you want is mercenary. Mercenary: "one that serves merely for wages".

If you want to argue that the current CGL crowd are mercenaries, solely interested in the paycheck, then I don't think you'll get a lot of arguments here, but is that really the best defense you can come up with?

[nezumi]

In my experience, RPG freelancers (including the CGL crowd) don't get paid enough for their work to cover the sandwiches they eat while working. "Well paid" in the industry generally comes out to $5/hr. Not sure how applicable 'mercenary' is there.

People write for Shadowrun because they enjoy writing and they enjoy Shadowrun. That's all. What does Dumpshock offer? A tremendous braintrust of knowledge and experience across all different fields, a LOT of math background, and a lot of honest, critical eyes for reviewing. What's the cost? Basically a beaker of acid poured directly into the brain. Forever. I can't speak for other writers, but when *I* write, I like the criticism. It's how you get better. And after I put something out there, while I try not to, I still loiter around the major news sources to see what the feedback is. And BEFORE I write, I spend a few days collecting fan information, to see what problems have already been detected. At the same time, I try not to post (unless a direct question has been asked) because that will influence the results. I also tend to read the opinions of people who share my view of the game. I don't read up on my work at fantasy boards or 4chan, because I don't want to incorporate their vision.

I only do this for a certain amount of time. After a period, I'm on the next project. And worse, at dumpshock particularly, there's sort of a 'we never forget!' vibe to it. So if I wrote something bad, I'd probably hear about it once or twice a month for the rest of my dumpshock experience, which makes me less inclined to hang around. There's certainly no reason for me to become especially involved in the community (since I can read everyone's responses without signing in).

This is just for me personally though. If someone felt the hurt of Dumpshock outweighed the benefit, I'd tell them not to visit. You're not going to be a good writer if you're too upset to write, or if you're afraid of upsetting a single fan. You're always going to be upsetting someone; that's the nature of doing anything for mass consumption. At some point you need to say 'screw it'.

Why are there as few freelancers as there are here? I don't know. I've been hanging out with some other games (sorry Shadowrun) and I'm a little surprised how infrequently those freelancers are involved with their forums as well. Or maybe it is a conscious decision that we are no longer the target audience. I don't know.

[Critias]

If you want to argue that the current CGL crowd are mercenaries, solely interested in the paycheck, then I don't think you'll get a lot of arguments here...

What do you think we get paid, man?

Because, seriously, this is the wrongest thing -- and honestly the most insulting -- that I've ever seen posted here.

[Shortstraw]

What do you think we get paid, man?

Because, seriously, this is the wrongest thing -- and honestly the most insulting -- that I've ever seen posted here.

I seem to remember a big kerfuffle some years back about freelancers not being paid (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A-ha! Not edition wars, though!

Beg to differ... Same Brew with different process, timings, mellowing, etc... Sounds like an "Edition" to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Look at the "Edition" Wars for Coke and Pepsi... Sheesh. *shakes Head*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What do you think we get paid, man?

I would be happy getting paid "Sandwich Money", but sadly, my writing is probably not even up to that standard (I tend to incorporate from way too many sources when I write). But to be honest, I write to write, and I like to think my campaign documents are not too shabby, even if I pull from everything.... The money is likely secondary, unless you do it for a living. And to my knowledge, most Shadowrun Freelancers do not write for a living. That is a hard row to how. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I do appreciate your efforts (good or bad), though, Critias, because they make me think. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sendaz]

Look at the "Edition" Wars for Coke and Pepsi... Sheesh. *shakes Head*

See I would not see Coke vs Pepsi as an 'edition'' war.... that is like comparing SR and CP2020, similar but not editions.


Now classic Coke vs New Coke would be an edition war, but then someone would have had to like New Coke which went away anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

See I would not see Coke vs Pepsi as an 'edition'' war.... that is like comparing SR and CP2020, similar but not editions.


Now classic Coke vs New Coke would be an edition war, but then someone would have had to like New Coke which went away anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Which is what I was talking about, Sendaz... I said Coke AND Pepsi, not Coke vs. Pepsi. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Original Coke, New Coke, Interim Coke... Blah Blah Blah...
Pepsi does the same thing. Just decide already. *sheesh*

I have seen beers do the same thing. Total Edition Wars. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

Why Dumphock is not a good place for Developers? That's an easy one.
Because dumpshock regulars are not the target audience.

That's great! Because I have literally sworn off ever buying another product from CGL ever again. They suckered me with SR5, they won't sucker me in the future. They have lost a customer for life.

If they want to actively alienate the hardcore players because they write that section of the community off as expendible, so be it. But that sort of obvious bad faith tends to promote a bad reputation which works against you in the long run. Although I suppose if they cared about their reputation, that whole embezzling thing wouldn't have happened...

~Umi

[PraetorGradivus]

That's great! Because I have literally sworn off ever buying another product from CGL ever again. They suckered me with SR5, they won't sucker me in the future. They have lost a customer for life.
<snip>

~Umi

If I had a nickle for every person that ever told me that about Games workshop, well, you know...
And they're still in buisness.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If I had a nickle for every person that ever told me that about Games workshop, well, you know...
And they're still in buisness.

I have not given them a dime in something like 20 years, so they did not stay open on my dime. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

Part of the reason they persist is that they make most of their money on non-SR products. By all accounts, their Battletech stuff is actually decent quality, which is really all you need with as passionate a fanbase as that universe has.

~Umi