[X] My Assistant

[Draco18s]

Apparently people don't like that I write it "ShadowRun" instead of Shadowrun.

I write it "ShadowRun" so there. :B
(at least when I'm not being a lazy arse, anyway)

[Sendaz]

"Shadowrun" would also have been acceptable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Draco18s]

"Shadowrun" would also have been acceptable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Polyphonic speech is always fun to hear.

[Fatum]

(Interesting that the three examples all come from the same chapter, but, that's no biggie ... I was in the threads earlier and I know my stuff got grumbled about as well. Some of which was valid, some of which I disagreed with, and some of which was a matter of editing.)

There were heaps of criticism for pretty much every chapter, except maybe for the one on vampires. But we were both there, anyway.

I don't remember Storm Front being blasted that badly, in general, but one or two chapters didn't land as well as I'd have liked. Still, that's a topic that's chewable.

Well, it wasn't War!

Editing's getting better each time, and writing's improving. Is it, say, the Return of Nigel Findley? Not yet, but new writers have been brought in and are digging in, older writers are helping where able, and the art continues to kick ass.

Yeah, new art is as a rule good.

There's, like, what, five of us writers in this very thread? Six? You'll forgive me if I don't match my view of shouting into the dark with yours, I hope.

Glorious! Surely that means some feedback will be incorporated, right? Hahaha.

An errata -does- keep rolling out, due to, you know, feedback, which comes from here, the official boards, and other places. It's slow, and a tad tricky since it's asking people to do work for free, but it -does- keep rolling out.

Yeah, sweet sweet errata that entirely depends on the enthusiasm of its writers, takes ages to arrive, addresses single digit percentages of the issues with the books, and sometimes adds new ones.

I'd love for a day to come along where a book is perfect at launch, but I don't know of *any* RPG book ever made that hits that level, so I can just hope for a continuing reduction in mistakes.

I remember a few RPG books with rules that did not contradict themselves at every turn. Like, you know, Shadowrun cores 1-4.

Those who want to help can, of course, ask to be proofreaders.

And become spellcheckers who can't even correct grammar, much less fluff or crunch, as it was reported here CGL proofreaders do? What a breathtaking prospect.

[Sengir]

You are entitled as anyone is to your opinion- and if you think calling something stupid is appropriate, so be it. I don't.

Not someone, something. Something which has even been disowned by its creators, there is little offense to be had in calling that stupid, terrible, an abomination which should never have been sent to the printers, whatever.

And exactly that undisputed badness is why we should try to get over bringing it up in every discussion. Why not 6WA or Corp Guide, just don't mention the war...

[apple]

Editing's getting better each time, and writing's improving.

That is certainly true and the reason why both German and French authors advertise the respective localized version with "Come to us! Massive improvements! 100+ Errata discussion went into the book"

SYL

[Shemhazai]

I've recently been looking over some 1st edition stuff. I think the books today are much better.

[apple]

Well, the German SR4 first print 2005 from Fanpro (they went bankrupt after that) was not really a light in the darkness either. Thankfully Pegaus has a higher quality standad.

MfG

[Garvel]

And, yeah, using ideas that are on a forum that you read is all KINDS of legal knot issues that I, for one, don't want to get involved with. Noooo thank you. So, would I like to bounce ideas of you guys to see where X or Y could be improved? Hell yeah! But, not allowed. Heck, I've had to bail out of several threads that I'd have loved to read because it's been too similar to something I've got on teh way, or am currently working on, and I can't risk cross-polination.

And that makes for a Sad Panda.

Learning that makes me sad too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) . So it's a legal reason, that all the good ideas posted on forums generally can't be used? What a waste of potential. Most posters would be proud if their ideas would become RAW in later released books.

Isn't there a way around that problem?

Why no Paizo system? Public available full beta previews where the community can comment and improve the books from the beginning? Of course the line developer from Paizi incorporates feedback from the community, playtesters and authors back into the original document, unlike in some other RPGs.

This was mentioned earlier in this discussion. I also heard from another example of an RPG system asking their fans what they want for the new edition and using their ideas for improvement. How come other RPGs can use ideas from fans without any legal trouble?

[apple]

mprovement. How come other RPGs can use ideas from fans without any legal trouble?

Thats quite easy and depends on the terms of use for the forum: these kind of producer forums have usually a note with "If you become part of the forum, we may incorporate any idea found on the forum without any payment, legal obgligations etc. You forfeit every right for your idea. Thanks!"

For a computer game it sounds like:

9.1 Game clients and Service. The Game clients and the Service (including without limitation any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, documentation, in-game chat transcripts, character profile information, recordings or replays of Games, and the Game client and server software) are copyrighted works owned by X and its licensors. Xreserves all rights in connection with the Games and the Service, including without limitation the exclusive right to create derivative works.

Or in short version: "everything you do on our servers belongs to us. If you cure cancer and end world hunger, we get credits for it".

Dumpshock is an independent forum and that may create some additional obstacles.

MfG

[Garvel]

Thats quite easy and depends on the terms of use for the forum: these kind of producer forums have usually a note with "If you become part of the forum, we may incorporate any idea found on the forum without any payment, legal obgligations etc. You forfeit every right for your idea. Thanks!"

For a computer game it sounds like:


Or in short version: "everything you do on our servers belongs to us. If you cure cancer and end world hunger, we get credits for it".

Dumpshock is an independent forum and that may create some additional obstacles.

MfG

Ok. So if you wanted fan ideas you could actually use as a freelancer, the only option would be to create such a producer forum elsewhere. Then you could make a post on dumpshock about the project you are working on, asking the people to discuss their ideas in the new forum, if they want their suggestions to be heard.

Yeah, I can see how that is out of the range of what a freelancer is allowed to decide (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) .
It's a shame though, with the ideas of many heads instead of just one, the final result could imho become much better.

[apple]

Well, perhaps the official SR4 forums already have such a TOS.

[Draco18s]

You know. I suppose those of us who wouldn't mind having our ideas "stolen" could indicate as such in our signatures. "CGL is hereby authorized to utilize any ideas or content present in this poster's posts."

There's another game that I would kill to get their designers to think about some of the game design suggestions I've made. Not "they haven't integrated any of my ideas" but on a more fundamental level that they're making decisions almost 180 degrees counter to what would be considered "good for the game." The game is turning into a Skinner Box, basically. One where balance is so nebulous as to be meaningless (too hard under one set very predictable conditions, too easy under the other very predictable scenario, with the stated design goal that it will be balanced across that spectrum (hint: its not)).

[Wakshaani]

Yeah, legalese is required and while *technically* I was pre-law, I ain't a lawyer and I certainly have no training in THIS field.

So, it'd have to be over on the official forums, and probably a single thread with a big blinky disclaimer that says "All ideas posted here belong to us. GIVE US YOUR BRAINMEATS, MWU-HAHAHAHAA!!!"

Which, you know, quite a few of us are willing to do, but I confess that getting paid for it's kinda nice.

[Draco18s]

Now if only the software running the official forums wasn't utter garbage...

[binarywraith]

Too true. I have no idea how it lags that badly under such limited load. I can only assume they skimp on their servers as much as they skimp on their web updates.

[flowswithdrek]

I don't get this whole can't use ideas that have been posted in public because of legal reasons. I was under the impression that the idea itself cannot be copyrighted, just a specific implementation of it. As an example, shadowrun uses the whole magic returns to the Earth and links it to a cycle based on the Mayan calendar. Anyone else can do the same thing, they just need to change the specific details. So if this can be done, why can't someone use an idea posted on a forum?

[Nath]

As far as I understand, the issue was originally brought up in the early days of the Internet, when there were no forums, only mailing lists and websites, and people thought it would be a good idea if content from the most popular websites was to be officially released into books. Clearly, the website owner word that he would be honored provided no guarantee he wouldn't sue later for copyright infringement, nor would it guarantee that said owner hadn't actually copied it from another website. But that whole discussion was about using those website content full-text. It's different if for an original text featuring previous ideas.

Ideas are not copyrighted, thought there is a really fine line. Using similar characters names and description for instance, or the strings of events of a story can be ruled a copyright infringement. However, in the situation we are discussing, they may be based on concepts for which the license holder has copyrights.

Say I wrote a story about Aztechnology pyramid-shaped offices in Seattle being blown up by a tactical nuke, and the plot shows up in an adventure. Aztechnology and the shape of their office were originally in books that belong to the intellectual property of Topps, Inc. So there only is one isolated element, the tactical nuke, that was original to my work. Since tactical nukes are a real thing, I actually own squat about the idea. If in my story the tactical nuke is smuggled in an ice cream truck, and that shows up in the adventure too, that's two points of similarity and the beginning of an argument. While the RPG industry has little precedents for such case, there have been some with fan fictions (I've read about a ruling, concluding you have no copyright at all over a work that make fair use (non-licensed) of copyrighted elements who belong to someone else - in which case a story about Aztechnology pyramid being blown up has no copyright, while one about an unnamed corporation headquartered in Central America would...).

Anyway, the legal advice the company got likely is: don't take the chance, don't do it.

[Wounded Ronin]

As far as I understand, the issue was originally brought up in the early days of the Internet, when there were no forums, only mailing lists and websites, and people thought it would be a good idea if content from the most popular websites was to be officially released into books. Clearly, the website owner word that he would be honored provided no guarantee he wouldn't sue later for copyright infringement, nor would it guarantee that said owner hadn't actually copied it from another website. But that whole discussion was about using those website content full-text. It's different if for an original text featuring previous ideas.

Ideas are not copyrighted, thought there is a really fine line. Using similar characters names and description for instance, or the strings of events of a story can be ruled a copyright infringement. However, in the situation we are discussing, they may be based on concepts for which the license holder has copyrights.

Say I wrote a story about Aztechnology pyramid-shaped offices in Seattle being blown up by a tactical nuke, and the plot shows up in an adventure. Aztechnology and the shape of their office were originally in books that belong to the intellectual property of Topps, Inc. So there only is one isolated element, the tactical nuke, that was original to my work. Since tactical nukes are a real thing, I actually own squat about the idea. If in my story the tactical nuke is smuggled in an ice cream truck, and that shows up in the adventure too, that's two points of similarity and the beginning of an argument. While the RPG industry has little precedents for such case, there have been some with fan fictions (I've read about a ruling, concluding you have no copyright at all over a work that make fair use (non-licensed) of copyrighted elements who belong to someone else - in which case a story about Aztechnology pyramid being blown up has no copyright, while one about an unnamed corporation headquartered in Central America would...).

Anyway, the legal advice the company got likely is: don't take the chance, don't do it.

That's like how the guys who were responsible for Lone Wolf McQuade sued the guys who were responsible for Walker: Texas Ranger.

[Sendaz]

http://www.leagle.com/decision/19971548961...0v.%20CBS%20INC.

that was some fun reading. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Stumps]

On the value of Dumpshock:
Dumpshock is an invaluable test lab. If I want to see a variety of reactions to any given concept, with critically sharp responses; Dumpshock is where I will go. I usually post my ruleset alternatives here simply because if I still like the concepts after they have been chewed threw the rounds at Dumpshock, then I consider them well tempered. Many times folks point out simple and obvious mistakes that I have made (this happened just a few days ago in fact), and I appreciate that.
Granted; I'm just a hobby goer, so I don't have a team to bounce anything off of.
However, Dumpshock has always had a special talent at rulebook thrashing.
I don't think the best rulebook ever written would survive without a scratch here, but I also don't think anything should.
It's somewhat like crash tests; the question isn't whether it will come out without a scratch, but whether the disastrous mess of the crash test produced results that were acceptable.

I would probably never have gotten my personal method for Initiative finally ironed out just the way I like it without the onslaught of round after round, and thread after thread, of arguing back and forth over various matters related to the subject.

Debating, especially when it's seemingly pedantic and frustrating, is often a great fuel for producing creative solutions and motivations to find solutions to on-going puzzles.


On the legality of interacting with forums, etc...:
This is another reason I preferred giving up on giving a crap about any of this kind of stuff.
Whether it's writing, drawing, music, game designs, or whatever...

Perhaps this is because I had a very bad run-in with IP law at a very early age when I was a bright eyed novice convinced I was going to create and draw my own comic book, and ended up years later walking away not able to touch my own IP because I was naive and didn't (at the time) understand the effective leverage between copyright and creative control - I, unfortunately, only retained the latter; thinking the publisher was doing me a favor in taking over the copyright part (as I said; very young and very naive).

That took about a decade for me to get over, and it pretty much ruined my passion for doing commercial artwork.
In fact, it practically ruined my passion and trust in doing anything commercial for a very long time.

I don't have anything to offer in regards to the writers, or the forum about how to solve legal issues, or whether it matters or not.
What I can say is, anything I write is fully available for anyone to use for any purpose ever without checking with me.

I have the same position on all of my creative works - my music is made with the same availability.

My position has become:
The work itself is not the valuable aspect; I am.
If someone likes my work, then they can pay me to work if they want to hire me for something, and in so doing they will be paying me for working.
I don't want to be paid for the work itself (the object, IP, etc...), however.

So, again, I don't have anything to offer you folks wrapped up in various commercial tethers.
All I can say is that I found the creative process far more enjoyable once I stopped concerning over legal issues and just stopped trying to "own" things; instead focusing on just creating and letting it get out there however it can go.

Cheers,
Stumps

[Wounded Ronin]

http://www.leagle.com/decision/19971548961...0v.%20CBS%20INC.

that was some fun reading. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Cordell Walker ultimately uses martial arts to capture the stalkers, and a combination of shotgun blasts and martial arts to defeat the bank robbers. The broadcast of the television movie was followed by a weekly television series entitled "Walker, Texas Ranger."5 (2d Am.Compl.¶¶ 24-25.) In the television series, Cordell Walker continues to fight crime with a combination of guns and martial arts and the help of an assistant district attorney and a young minority partner.

[darthmord]

But at the same time... if I want to improve my work, I take the time to listen to the harshest critics. "You do great work, man!" is not a helpful way to improve my art. "You suck, and here's why" has always been more helpful, at least when I'm willing to hear it.

This is why when I was in grad school and I was writing papers, they'd get reviewed by the two toughest English Comp instructors in the school. One was a master at content shaping/formatting and the other knew APA format inside and out. If I made it through with just a mere ten corrections, I considered it a VERY good day.

I still have people ask me how I could tolerate seeing my papers all marked up in green ink. My Response: "Critiques are the only way to get better. I don't want 'rah rah, you did great' responses. I want the paper to bleed if it needs to bleed."

[Medicineman]

No Way Jose .
If You ,Darthmord (or anybody else), does good Work, I'm going to mention it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
(sometimes People just need positive feedback, even if they pretend they don't)

With a commendatory Dance
Medicineman

[freudqo]

No Way Jose .
If You ,Darthmord (or anybody else), does good Work, I'm going to mention it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
(sometimes People just need positive feedback, even if they pretend they don't)

With a commendatory Dance
Medicineman

I've had to write on very different subjects than the one at stake, but with editing and correcting with very high standard.

I've had to correct hundred of pages of my work covered in red or green or blue ink, with margin full of comments on how I should have presented this or that differently. The post-it or the mail or the oral comment I got when doing it was in the vicinity of "it's really good, here are a few corrections, keep on like this!".

Just to say that it's entirely not incompatible to receive both a positive feedback and a paper covered in green ink. Actually, even without a positive feedback, the guy which corrects your work spending his time to make comments on it is actually quite a positive thing. If I have to review something that I find not interesting or in which I don't find anything positive, I'll just reject it or send a few comments on how the guy should restart from scratch.

Just to say (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)