[X] My Assistant

[carmachu]

I don't know if you've been keeping up with other RPGs outside of Shadowrun, but all RPGs have editing issues. I can't imagine CGL is able to single handedly solve all the issues of the entire hobby. Cut them some slack and discuss the problems and how to solve or interpret the issues rather than spew out vial that doesn't help anyone.

@DeathStrobe:

No offense but this is so much BS. I own more games then I can count and no game, NO GAME COMPANY, has as much editing issues as CGL. They are, by far and away, the worse at editing and proof reading that If I didnt know any better and covered up the name on the game and manufacturer, that it almost come across as an indie game in the editing, proofreading, and incorporating errata.

No, they get no slack on this. They need to do better. Period. This issue has been done to death, but your handwaving it away as "unable to single handly solve all the issues of the hobby" is just BS. We dont want them to solve the issues of the hobby, we want CGL to get their act together and produce something that reads like its professionally done. Because frankly its alot of basic mistakes, whether in process or lack there of.

Their Battletech line has their house in order and process in order. They need to follow suit on the Shadowrun side.

[carmachu]

so yeah, the new fluff contradicts some obscure book from the previous edition that is long out of print, big fragging deal, no one who matters will notice. Professionalism is about being paid for your work, not about maintaining any standards or anything.

I think your wrong there. It is big deal in so much that folks who bought those books aren't buying them because you contradict what was once part of the game. because that thing you insulted just now ends up driving off or driving away customers.

Don't believe me? Recall the dungeons and dragons 4e rollout where game designers did piss on what came before in there roll out. And look what that got them. a fan base thay ended up divided and an edition that got cut short.

[Stumps]

Haha!

Indeed; SR's editing and organization is notorious - and that's absolutely not a Dumpshock fashion or zeitgeist perspective.
Back when I first started SR, our GM had already played SR in the past and warned immediately of this issue.
In fact, the books (SR2 at the time) were littered with stickies and cross references.
This was back on dial-up and only slightly after the manual IP address entering days (you know; the "yellow pages of the internet" days), so definitely before Dumpshock.

My personal joke is that SR reads as if dictated by Jeff Goldblum trying to give a work-tour of a Nuclear Power Plant after a hang-over.
I used to call 3-ring-bindering SR core books (where you just slice up the book and rearrange it and cut parts out and paste them yourself where they all flow together more easily) "Jeffersoning", referring to the the Jefferson Bible - because by the time you get done doing that, you have sliced about as much out as Jefferson sliced out of the Bible in making his version of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Nostalgia has me enjoying all of this, but indeed - SR taught me how to organize material by being a great example of what doesn't work.
In fact, I use many of those lessons several times a year in documentation for training information at our company, so - in a way - thank you SR! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Also - a general philosophy in regards to information dispersion:
If a bunch of people continue over time to be confused by the presentation of the information, then there is a problem in the presentation of the information and not a problem with the receivers of the information.

I deal with this every day (working in a tech support department).
If we have a known issue, place it on the message prompt for folks calling in, and folks still are ringing through in spite of the message prompt, then regardless how straight-forward we may think that message is - it has to be changed to something different until we get something that folks can easily understand and follow.

The simplest test is what I call the Greenhorn-Time test (I use this with training material for employees).
That means you:
1: Take your material as it will be presented
2: Grab someone who does not normally interact with that material
3: Give them a specific problem to look for a solution for
4: Time how long it takes them to find that solution
5: Keep track of whether they found the correct solution in full (but don't tell them; just note it down)

If your end result is something like 10 minutes at 50-60% accuracy (for a book), then I'd say you need to remap the text for better clarity.

And yes, it is entirely possible to get this right. In writing technical documents and indexing them, I can guarantee that it is entirely possible to get folks to find a solution to a problem in manual texts within under 2 minutes with at least 90% accuracy without any familiarity with the material.
Heck; our Field Manuals in the Army were easier to thumb through than SR, and those manuals were far larger and for entire switch trucks with a massive amount of electronic gear to turn on and operate correctly...and if the government can do it...I have faith that SR could easily do so...but you need to actually "bug test" your book as a reference book.

Cheers,
Stumps

[carmachu]

Shadowrun isn't about the epic battles of household names, but about unknown, unseen criminals who are either remember in obituaries, or retire to some quiet place and live out their days in relative comfort. It's my opinion that nothing the runners do should ever seriously alter the setting to the point that regular people would know.

honestly this. You've articulated what I have put my finger on. It's what's been lost with the huge plot arcs With large npcs masterminding everything. Less about crminals vs corps, What drew me in decades ago

[toturi]

I think it is about scale. The character can retire to some quiet place in comfort, if he is so motivated.

But the thing about epic scale runs with world shaking plot arcs is that the runners can be part of that. But it isn't going to be likely that they are going to be remembered for the epic battle of household names.

If they survive, they may boast of it. Some people will say they don't believe it, because there's no proof (which can be precisely the point). Or they can low key it and few people really know what happened and the people in charge can spin whatever story they want to explain what happened.

[KarmaInferno]

It took me this long to notice it, but...

What the heck is a "dumphock"?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


-k

[Glyph]

honestly this. You've articulated what I have put my finger on. It's what's been lost with the huge plot arcs With large npcs masterminding everything. Less about crminals vs corps, What drew me in decades ago

They have just about always had huge mega-arcs going on, though. Nostalgia aside, I think that is one area that has actually improved a bit - they have mega-events, but focus more on getting the characters involved in the factions and double-dealing, rather than gushing over their overpowered author-Sue great dragons and immortal elves. Mostly.

[Wothanoz]

@DeathStrobe:

No offense but this is so much BS. I own more games then I can count and no game, NO GAME COMPANY, has as much editing issues as CGL. They are, by far and away, the worse at editing and proof reading that If I didnt know any better and covered up the name on the game and manufacturer, that it almost come across as an indie game in the editing, proofreading, and incorporating errata.

No, they get no slack on this. They need to do better. Period. This issue has been done to death, but your handwaving it away as "unable to single handly solve all the issues of the hobby" is just BS. We dont want them to solve the issues of the hobby, we want CGL to get their act together and produce something that reads like its professionally done. Because frankly its alot of basic mistakes, whether in process or lack there of.

Their Battletech line has their house in order and process in order. They need to follow suit on the Shadowrun side.

I will point towards Privateer press and their popular IKRPG game. It's... uh. Well, it's comparable to SR in terms of contradictory rules, rules that might be rules or might be flavor text, and just terrible layout. It's actually got a very similar feel to it.

Granted, not excusing bad editing and layout, just saying it's not uncommon.

[sk8bcn]

I think your wrong there. It is big deal in so much that folks who bought those books aren't buying them because you contradict what was once part of the game. because that thing you insulted just now ends up driving off or driving away customers.

Don't believe me? Recall the dungeons and dragons 4e rollout where game designers did piss on what came before in there roll out. And look what that got them. a fan base thay ended up divided and an edition that got cut short.

Agrees. I don't like that at all.


But I don't think it's the vast majority. I didn't like Heroes because of the inconsistency ofthe characters (1 season a baddy, one season a good guy...).

[Stumps]

I will point towards Privateer press and their popular IKRPG game. It's... uh. Well, it's comparable to SR in terms of contradictory rules, rules that might be rules or might be flavor text, and just terrible layout. It's actually got a very similar feel to it.

Granted, not excusing bad editing and layout, just saying it's not uncommon.

Why wouldn't any reference manual for game play, which will be used during game play, be crafted with expedience and clarity as the principle governing direction?

Or perhaps better phrased; why would anyone with the awareness of the use of the text, who is also involved in the creation of that text, want for less than this?

I've long wondered, aside from cost factors, why the texts aren't written in two forms: A) Standard text B) In-Game text?

(A) is employed to deliver the setting, mood, background, and at-length discussions of rules in a casually drifting format.
(B) is employed as a field-manual style of text which is efficiently designed to very cleanly list the rules and cross reference the rules, and is formatted for the easiest means of notation, memorization, and/or referencing.

For (B), think of a standard Bible with Book, Chapter, and Verse format and central columns which indicate cross references to other Books, Chapters, and Verses which a nearby listed verse in the current page relates to.
You could even use various colors of text to indicate various levels of information priority (just as the Bible uses red to indicate the priority importance of its divine characters speaking; i.e. more important information).

Take this image, and replace it with SR related words and subject material.
http://biblebuyingguide.com/wp-content/upl...ble-ESV-008.jpg

...would be nice.

[Wothanoz]

Why wouldn't any reference manual for game play, which will be used during game play, be crafted with expedience and clarity as the principle governing direction?

Or perhaps better phrased; why would anyone with the awareness of the use of the text, who is also involved in the creation of that text, want for less than this?

I've long wondered, aside from cost factors, why the texts aren't written in two forms: A) Standard text B) In-Game text?

(A) is employed to deliver the setting, mood, background, and at-length discussions of rules in a casually drifting format.
(B) is employed as a field-manual style of text which is efficiently designed to very cleanly list the rules and cross reference the rules, and is formatted for the easiest means of notation, memorization, and/or referencing.

For (B), think of a standard Bible with Book, Chapter, and Verse format and central columns which indicate cross references to other Books, Chapters, and Verses which a nearby listed verse in the current page relates to.
You could even use various colors of text to indicate various levels of information priority (just as the Bible uses red to indicate the priority importance of its divine characters speaking; i.e. more important information).

Take this image, and replace it with SR related words and subject material.
http://biblebuyingguide.com/wp-content/upl...ble-ESV-008.jpg

...would be nice.

Hey man, not everyone is Steve Jackson. That's a company who I have the greatest trust that their products will generally make sense and be fairly easy to read and understand, and fairly solid.

[Stumps]

Hey Wothanoz,

Why wouldn't it be possible for SR to follow suit?


Also...I wonder if anyone has taken it upon themselves to rewrite any of the books before...

Cheers,
Stumps

[Sendaz]

It took me this long to notice it, but...

What the heck is a "dumphock"?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


-k

Same thing as a PooPawn?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[nezumi]

It took me this long to notice it, but...

What the heck is a "dumphock"?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


-k

Funny, I almost jumped on you to explain how any old player should know what dumpshock is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) I guess you beatt me.

[Draco18s]

I deal with this every day (working in a tech support department).
If we have a known issue, place it on the message prompt for folks calling in, and folks still are ringing through in spite of the message prompt, then regardless how straight-forward we may think that message is - it has to be changed to something different until we get something that folks can easily understand and follow.

The simplest test is what I call the Greenhorn-Time test (I use this with training material for employees).

If your end result is something like 10 minutes at 50-60% accuracy (for a book), then I'd say you need to remap the text for better clarity.

And yes, it is entirely possible to get this right. In writing technical documents and indexing them, I can guarantee that it is entirely possible to get folks to find a solution to a problem in manual texts within under 2 minutes with at least 90% accuracy without any familiarity with the material.

I'll admit that the board game I helped create and Kickstart had some problems with the rulebook. We didn't realize how painful it was to look up a specific question until after it had shipped. And it mostly had to do with the rules starting with the basics, and progressing through the turn order in detail. So the stuff that happened first got detailed first. The failing was that there were specific questions which we didn't know would be asked and when the mind goes "ok, what section of the game is that under, oh this portion" and you'd look there and the answer wouldn't be there, because it had been addressed earlier.

Hell, I was running a demo of the game at a convention, had one table ask me a clarifying question (for which I was able to supply the answer), but I was looking it up in the rule book just to prove that it was actually in the rule book and I couldn't find it. The rule book was only a dozen pages long and there was no index, so we'd mostly made sure that every rule was in it and that it was laid out without running onto an extra page (and thus cost more to produce, because the minimum number of pages you can add to a center-fold-stapled booklet is four). We'd tried to organize it as best we could, but we had no experience doing it before.

There were also weird one-off coincidences where Card A and Card B would combine to have a unexpected detrimental effect that we hadn't seen come up prior ("So if you draw one card as a zombie, but this card says you draw one less, how many do I draw?" Uh...first FAQ question! You draw one! Because, um, ah, the zombie says "your card draw is set to 1" that trumps the other modifiers, whew). That one made it into the rulebook (and got a little sidebar), but there've been a few others since release.

TL;DR:
Sometimes there's only so much you can do, but a company like CGL ought to know the right way to do it, and they consistently show that they do with Battletech.

[Wothanoz]

Hey Wothanoz,

Why wouldn't it be possible for SR to follow suit?


Also...I wonder if anyone has taken it upon themselves to rewrite any of the books before...

Cheers,
Stumps

I suppose there's nothing stopping them. However, SJgames has a very successful flagship(and it's not gurps. It's Munchkin) line that brings in the cash for it. And extremely high standards for contribution.

[carmachu]

I will point towards Privateer press and their popular IKRPG game. It's... uh. Well, it's comparable to SR in terms of contradictory rules, rules that might be rules or might be flavor text, and just terrible layout. It's actually got a very similar feel to it.

Granted, not excusing bad editing and layout, just saying it's not uncommon.

So......one other thats fairly bad in the industry. OK. Hell I'll even throw in Games Workshop for free.

Still not anywhere near what deathstrobe claimed as a industry wide problem. Not on the scale that was claimed across the board.

[carmachu]

They have just about always had huge mega-arcs going on, though. Nostalgia aside, I think that is one area that has actually improved a bit - they have mega-events, but focus more on getting the characters involved in the factions and double-dealing, rather than gushing over their overpowered author-Sue great dragons and immortal elves. Mostly.

In the background. Looking over my shelf alot of it prior to 4th was much much more localized plots and such. seattle, denver, and areas around NA. Not really like it is now world wide. Globe spanning plots and places.

But it could also be the grognard in me too.

[Stahlseele]

I suppose there's nothing stopping them. However, SJgames has a very successful flagship(and it's not gurps. It's Munchkin) line that brings in the cash for it. And extremely high standards for contribution.

Yes, and for CGL it IS Shadowrun actually . . Compared to Battletech it makes much more money, if i remember correctly.
Battletech used to be subsidized by Shadowrun because Battletech, for the longest time, still wasn't self sufficient in terms of money.
And they still treat the leech that is Battletech better than the cash cow Shadowrun for some fucked up reason i can't quite understand.

[Fatum]

So......one other thats fairly bad in the industry. OK. Hell I'll even throw in Games Workshop for free.

I've read a few codices of theirs; and they're nowhere as bad.
Oh, and errata and clarifications don't take a year to arrive.

[binarywraith]

Hey Wothanoz,

Why wouldn't it be possible for SR to follow suit?


Also...I wonder if anyone has taken it upon themselves to rewrite any of the books before...

Cheers,
Stumps

Because that's a ton of work with zero chance of compensation. If you're going to that much effort, it's honestly a better idea to just roll something of your own you can sell on kickstarter or drivethrurpg and at least maybe recoup some of your time.

[Stumps]

Because that's a ton of work with zero chance of compensation. If you're going to that much effort, it's honestly a better idea to just roll something of your own you can sell on kickstarter or drivethrurpg and at least maybe recoup some of your time.

hmm...
http://archerfansite.com/wp-content/upload...6/DrKrieger.jpg

[DeathStrobe]

So......one other thats fairly bad in the industry. OK. Hell I'll even throw in Games Workshop for free.

Still not anywhere near what deathstrobe claimed as a industry wide problem. Not on the scale that was claimed across the board.

Oh yeah? Ever play a Fantasy Flight board game or card game? Or how about the Mage Knight board game? Or how about the biggest RPG in the industry, where is the errata for D&D5?

I don't know what games you play, but it seems like everytime I pick up a new game there is a few dozen or more problems with the rules depending on how complex they are. And to be fair, Shadowrun is pretty damn complex.

Name me one rule system that is as complex as SR and has no errors, typos, contradictory rules, etc, or at the least fewer.

[Stumps]

And to be fair, Shadowrun is pretty damn complex.

Name me one rule system that is as complex as SR and has no errors, typos, contradictory rules, etc, or at the least fewer.

Which should be motivation to have even better clarity.

The most disorganized book I can think of is the Bible and we've managed to figure out a way to organize it.
I have faith that Shadowrun could be organized a tad better than its track record.

I'm not stating that the various teams involved over time have miserably failed, or are some manner of degraded in respect for the issue, but it would definitely be nice if it were one of the higher levels of priority for such a complicated game.

I think the issue may be even further pressed with the expectation of expedience persistent inherently in Western culture now in the advent of impulsive information grabbing and wiki-culture.
It's a bit hard to run a boolean search or hit ctrl+f on a piece of paper (which is why I get, or make, a PDF copy of every one of my books and use that 90% of the time...it's far easier to find things in SR texts this way).

[Medicineman]

And to be fair, Shadowrun is pretty damn complex.

Yes thats for Sure not only the Rules but the Game world too ! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Name me one rule system that is as complex as SR and has no errors, typos, contradictory rules, etc, or at the least fewer.

1 Hero Systems
2 Palladium Rifts ( the Rules are Wrong and unbalanced and lead to Powergaming Extreme, but they're not contradictory)

No System is perfect ,that for sure, but lots of systems are either better more clarified ( But I don't know that many systems as well as Shadowrun to judge/compare them in profound)

HokaHey
Medicineman