[X] My Assistant

[Stahlseele]

... Nerd! *snickers* ^^

[Wakshaani]

... Nerd! *snickers* ^^

It's true.

Heck, if it wasn't for the age cap, I'd be trying out for King of the Nerds (on TBS) even now.

(But I'd wash out on the calculus. It's what stood between me and my Comp Sci degree! Harumph!)

[DireRadiant]

Dumpshock has absolutely no value to a freelancer.

Let's imagine you are a freelancer and you are writing a piece for CGL. From the moment you propose and submit you cannot discuss anything about what you are writing until the moment it is published. By the time it is published any feedback is useless for that piece of writing. The feedback is also effectively useless for any future feedback since none of it is worth the pain of reading.

Dumpshockers have two courses to give feedback. Stand up and be counted by contributing directly to the next piece of writing. Or you can review and discuss in a manner that encourages the freelancers to want to read and interact with you.

Everything else is just yelling into the dark.

[Grinder]

Just so you can Understand us Germans
Our Nazi Past is as disturbing to Us as 9-11 is to You.
Imagine how You would feel if someone wrote a similar "Run" in the Twin Towers (killing the Spirits of Firefighters and Office Workers that died there, etc.....)

with a final Dance concerning this Topic
(because I really don't want to talk about it anymore)
Medicineman

This is so wrong.

[Fatum]

Let's say from Storm Front, which closed the book on SR4 and opened up plots for SR5, onwards. We know editing's an issue and it's getting improved each time, but still a problem. Valid. Totally valid and being worked on, ut it's still not perfect. (But don't expect absolutely perfect. There's not a game produce made today without at LEAST a typo in it, no matter the company. Getting the number as close to zero as possible is the ultimate goal here.)

I'm not even sure if this is serious. I remember a rather solid thread with criticisms for pretty much every page of Storm Front. From dragon hordes to Red Anya being privy to what the Great Dragons discuss on their secret meetings, and runners being hired to loot an exiled Great's hoard. (I believe that was also the thread where the claims of "professionalism" meaning "paid for that work" were first thrown around in response to the criticism of such writing being simply unprofessional).

Furthermore, every consequent major release got a dumpshock discussion worth hundreds of posts. Has that lead to any improvement in... well, anything, even editing? Has the new ruleset become any less of a disappointment for that? Has the material being published become any more accommodating of existing fluff for that? Or is the counter-argument still "stop discussing War!", as if the newer releases are principally better?

Dumpshock discussions are by now, for all I see, indeed yelling into the dark. The publisher is not interested in pandering to the desires of some handful of grognards; that investment simply does not pay off for it, when even the stuff like Parazoology or Core Fifth is bought up.

[binarywraith]

Dumpshockers have two courses to give feedback. Stand up and be counted by contributing directly to the next piece of writing. Or you can review and discuss in a manner that encourages the freelancers to want to read and interact with you.

You say this as if 'contributing directly to the next piece of writing' is a matter of effort rather than employment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

If feedback on the quality of their work is demoralizing and discouraging to the freelancers then that says something about the quality of the products they are putting their names on. I don't mean to be a dick, but that's how it is. If you put out a product with your name on it, you need to be prepared for critical reception, especially if the product doesn't hold up to the hype.

Even if we limit our discussion to Storm Front forward, how does that absolve the nightmare proofing/editing state of SR5 core? Or that the core SR5 books have ended up with 4+ page errata documents full of things that were straight up left out?

SR5 : http://cdn.shadowruntabletop.com/wp-conten..._SR5-Errata.pdf
Street Grimoire : http://cdn.shadowruntabletop.com/wp-conten...rata.pdf?4713c7
Run & Gun : http://cdn.shadowruntabletop.com/wp-conten...rata.pdf?4713c7

That's just the official errata, there is an entire forum full of it over at the official forums. Run Faster's been out six months and hasn't yet had any published despite a growing thread of issues over on the official forums.

This is a clear and ongoing problem, and no amount of 'they'll get better' solves it.

[Jaid]

getting better is nice, inasmuch as it actually happens. getting better before asking us to pay for it would be a lot nicer.

they've had poor incorporation of basic proofreading for a while now; either they aren't listening, or aren't having it done, or should find different people to do it (and based on what we can observe, it's probably the first of those options).

so not only are they asking us to buy stuff before they get better at it, but they don't really seem to be getting particularly better at it.

and on a side note, while it certainly isn't worthwhile to get drowned in negativity, there are good things to be gained from coming here as well. it may not be good for those who don't have a (very) thick skin, but if you aren't too bothered by the negativity, it can actually be a good place to be.

[Wounded Ronin]

This is so wrong.

Sounds like the plot to a bad 80s Japanese video game.

[PraetorGradivus]

In the case of War!'s issues, generally 'It's stupid' is the kindest criticism available. <snip>

This is what I was talking about. "It's stupid' isn't a constructive criticism, it's a subset of the Red Herring Fallacy.
It has no place in a conversation other than to inflame the person/people who don't hold your viewpoint.
It also doesn't help the game developer improve upon errors he made.
And let's face it- is it more important to humiliate the game developer or is it more important he recieve constructive critism that he can use to improve his products in the future.

PS I apologize to those of you who are offended at my use of him as a neutral pronoun- it's how I learned it, and it's how I'm comfortable writing.

[sk8bcn]

DireRadiant made me think about one point:

Why no communication about the next books beeing worked on?

This puzzles me strategically.

For exemple, Red Brick always stated pretty explicitely what they would work on, on it generated excitation. This is a good thing for the upcomming release, a chance for the autor to grab ideas and a good way to get of feel of the communities expectations.


So what's the point of that politic?

[Critias]

Speaking only for myself, I don't talk about what I'm working on because even if I thought I'd get a positive reception, NDAs say I can't talk about stuff until official channels talk about it, and because if I decided to talk about it earlier, anyways, I still couldn't/wouldn't use any ideas that I might find on the internet somewhere.

[toturi]

This is what I was talking about. "It's stupid' isn't a constructive criticism, it's a subset of the Red Herring Fallacy.
It has no place in a conversation other than to inflame the person/people who don't hold your viewpoint.
It also doesn't help the game developer improve upon errors he made.
And let's face it- is it more important to humiliate the game developer or is it more important he recieve constructive critism that he can use to improve his products in the future.

PS I apologize to those of you who are offended at my use of him as a neutral pronoun- it's how I learned it, and it's how I'm comfortable writing.

When you feel strongly about something, it can be difficult to quantify precisely what you are upset about.

If you do not feel strongly about something, it is less likely that you would be posting about it.

So in effect, you are looking for the sweet spot where you are pissed enough to do something about it but not so pissed as to be incoherent or capable of only venting.

From the amount of vitriol, you can gauge the depth and scale of the screw up. You won't know where or how you did so. But eventually someone will calm down enough and be rational enough to post a list of constructive criticisms.

As far as I am concerned, what the writer needs to do is look for these nuggets and scale them up to fit the size of the crowd's reaction. As an example: I EPIC fail at music. So I am one of those people that all I can do to criticise lousy music is to say that it SUXXORS. Someone who is better at music can come along and articulate my complaints better.

[Umidori]

So Dumpshock doesn't allow images, but I'm sure many of you are familiar of the animated .gif of Michael Jackson eatting popcorn.

That's me right now - just picture it in your mind.

~Umi

[binarywraith]

DireRadiant made me think about one point:

Why no communication about the next books beeing worked on?

This puzzles me strategically.

For exemple, Red Brick always stated pretty explicitely what they would work on, on it generated excitation. This is a good thing for the upcomming release, a chance for the autor to grab ideas and a good way to get of feel of the communities expectations.


So what's the point of that politic?

I suspect they stopped publishing previews because people were tearing apart the errors in them and then being appalled that they persisted into published versions.

[apple]

This is what I was talking about. "It's stupid' isn't a constructive criticism, it's a subset of the Red Herring Fallacy.

Valid point.

However it should be added that the negative points of WAR! were already discussed to death, with full details and interpretatoin for literally every sentence in the book. Even on the German official forum there was 26 page Discussion. So if you want to talk about WAR! you will find every argument and counter argument known to men in the archives of dumpshock, Pegaus, rpg.net, SR4forums, SR Nexus etc. And it can be assumend that those who participate in the disccuion *know* these arguments. After all both sides (those defending that Bogoto can be escaped vie sub and those who don´t like the Ausschwitz Adventure Park Raiding idea, how amusing it may sound as a dungeon crawl) talked about them in full details for the last years.

After such a long time with hundreds of pages of discussion everywhere it can be understandable if someone shortens the discussion to a "one sentence statement". You would be right of course if we would discuss Boston Lockdown (AFAIK the latest of the books) and would only have the point "Its Bullshit" or "It´s chocolate cookie in paper form" and nothing else.

########################################

Why no Paizo system? Public available full beta previews where the community can comment and improve the books from the beginning? Of course the line developer from Paizi incorporates feedback from the community, playtesters and authors back into the original document, unlike in some other RPGs.

SYL

[Critias]

After all both sides (those defending that Bogoto can be escaped vie sub)...

Really?

[apple]

Deadly Waves IIRC.

SYL

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Really?

Didn't you get the last Telephone call Critias? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
But yes, Deadly Waves.

[Draco18s]

Slow, the spell.
There. Have a the word 100% valid complaint about War! Because nothing about it makes a lick of sense.
Can we move on now?

Great, thanks.

Now back to "not installing a firewall on my office network because I know jack and all about how to do so, but my boss is too cheap to hire somebody who does and I'm 'close enough.'" I told him I don't know what I'm doing and the instructions that came with it aren't working as expected and he told me he didn't like my attitude (note: the Internet has been down for 24 hours now and we haven't been able to do much actual work).

[Sengir]

This is what I was talking about. "It's stupid' isn't a constructive criticism, it's a subset of the Red Herring Fallacy.

Calling the book we don't want to discuss but somehow still do horrible isn't a red herring, "it's horrible" is the mutually agreed-upon starting point. Even by the authors, Bulls complaint about the Auschwitz chapter being blown out of proportion still included the obligate "War is a terrible book".
Naming that book in a discussion about SR5 releases on the other hand might qualify, because for all the problems they have, they just don't compare to War! (in a positive sense).

[PraetorGradivus]

Calling the book we don't want to discuss but somehow still do horrible isn't a red herring, "it's horrible" is the mutually agreed-upon starting point. Even by the authors, Bulls complaint about the Auschwitz chapter being blown out of proportion still included the obligate "War is a terrible book".
Naming that book in a discussion about SR5 releases on the other hand might qualify, because for all the problems they have, they just don't compare to War! (in a positive sense).

You are entitled as anyone is to your opinion- and if you think calling something stupid is appropriate, so be it. I don't.
However, I minored in Philosophy and got perfect grades in every class associated with it. Starting an argument with its stupid or he's stupid is a subset of the Red Herring Fallacy.

But if we were going to discount every single argument that is technically a formal or informal fallacy on this site we would have to dicount most of the threads.

Now, if I could only have gotten perfect grades in typing and spelling that might be more useful to me now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Adam]

Why no communication about the next books beeing worked on?

This puzzles me strategically.

For exemple, Red Brick always stated pretty explicitely what they would work on, on it generated excitation. This is a good thing for the upcomming release, a chance for the autor to grab ideas and a good way to get of feel of the communities expectations.

So what's the point of that politic?

Every single announcement you make creates a set of expectations and stresses. I wrote about it a bunch here: http://adamjury.com/2013/making-announceme...falls-products/

[Wakshaani]

I'm not even sure if this is serious. I remember a rather solid thread with criticisms for pretty much every page of Storm Front. From dragon hordes to Red Anya being privy to what the Great Dragons discuss on their secret meetings, and runners being hired to loot an exiled Great's hoard. (I believe that was also the thread where the claims of "professionalism" meaning "paid for that work" were first thrown around in response to the criticism of such writing being simply unprofessional).

Of course its serious.

(Interesting that the three examples all come from the same chapter, but, that's no biggie ... I was in the threads earlier and I know my stuff got grumbled about as well. Some of which was valid, some of which I disagreed with, and some of which was a matter of editing.)

I don't remember Storm Front being blasted that badly, in general, but one or two chapters didn't land as well as I'd have liked. Still, that's a topic that's chewable.

Furthermore, every consequent major release got a dumpshock discussion worth hundreds of posts. Has that lead to any improvement in... well, anything, even editing? Has the new ruleset become any less of a disappointment for that? Has the material being published become any more accommodating of existing fluff for that? Or is the counter-argument still "stop discussing War!", as if the newer releases are principally better?

Editing's getting better each time, and writing's improving. Is it, say, the Return of Nigel Findley? Not yet, but new writers have been brought in and are digging in, older writers are helping where able, and the art continues to kick ass.

As for fluff, there are several of us who go through and try to double-check things for clashes. One or two things get through, but I can't think of anything huge off the top of my head that made it through. (There's one thing I didn't -agree- with, but it wasn't my call, not my writing, and not my job to say otherwise.)

However, here's a great place for you to chime in with any direct fluff issues since Storm Front. The ones I know about, I'll chime in as best I can. One or two might be tied in with NDA stuff, but where something was changed, or where we screw up, I'll let it be known if I can. I'm still ticked at myself for a hiccup with some corporate fluff I made. It happens, and I have to be more careful in the future.

Dumpshock discussions are by now, for all I see, indeed yelling into the dark. The publisher is not interested in pandering to the desires of some handful of grognards; that investment simply does not pay off for it, when even the stuff like Parazoology or Core Fifth is bought up.

There's, like, what, five of us writers in this very thread? Six? You'll forgive me if I don't match my view of shouting into the dark with yours, I hope.

An errata -does- keep rolling out, due to, you know, feedback, which comes from here, the official boards, and other places. It's slow, and a tad tricky since it's asking people to do work for free, but it -does- keep rolling out.

I'd love for a day to come along where a book is perfect at launch, but I don't know of *any* RPG book ever made that hits that level, so I can just hope for a continuing reduction in mistakes. Those who want to help can, of course, ask to be proofreaders.

Speaking only for myself, I don't talk about what I'm working on because even if I thought I'd get a positive reception, NDAs say I can't talk about stuff until official channels talk about it, and because if I decided to talk about it earlier, anyways, I still couldn't/wouldn't use any ideas that I might find on the internet somewhere.

And then there's this. I, for one, don't want to go up against anything legal. This is why you see me use Currrent Project or Future Product on a regular basis, rather than, say, "Book of Totally Awesome Guns!" or whatever. Until the people above say otherwise, it's radio silence and I ain't about to be the one to break it.

And, yeah, using ideas that are on a forum that you read is all KINDS of legal knot issues that I, for one, don't want to get involved with. Noooo thank you. So, would I like to bounce ideas of you guys to see where X or Y could be improved? Hell yeah! But, not allowed. Heck, I've had to bail out of several threads that I'd have loved to read because it's been too similar to something I've got on teh way, or am currently working on, and I can't risk cross-polination.

And that makes for a Sad Panda.

[binarywraith]

Editing's getting better each time, and writing's improving.

This is a statement that requires support. Run Faster still has the same off page references, spelling errors, misplaced charts, and references to qualities not yet published anywhere that have been a plague on the SR5 line. We are 5 core rulebooks and two full years into this edition, and basic editing is still lacking. I personally think we're well past the point where 'it's a little better' is acceptable quality from products that CGL wants $50 a pop for.

[nezumi]

Dumpshock has absolutely no value to a freelancer.

Let's imagine you are a freelancer and you are writing a piece for CGL. From the moment you propose and submit you cannot discuss anything about what you are writing until the moment it is published. By the time it is published any feedback is useless for that piece of writing. The feedback is also effectively useless for any future feedback since none of it is worth the pain of reading.

Dumpshockers have two courses to give feedback. Stand up and be counted by contributing directly to the next piece of writing. Or you can review and discuss in a manner that encourages the freelancers to want to read and interact with you.

Everything else is just yelling into the dark.

I disagree with this pretty aggressively.

If I'm writing something, there are three major reasons I hit the forum. For this example, let's say I'm writing a location book. (Note: I do NOT write for CGL in any capacity, and all of my Shadowrun work involves drop bears, but I do sometimes get paid for words.)

1) Basic research. Shadowrun as a setting goes back for like a million years. I've been around for a long time, but not THAT long. What has already been written? What's established canon, and what's head-canon? Dumpshock knows. Someone has asked about that location, and with a little searching, I can find those discussions. That gives me references, clarifications, issues. Yes, I still need to do my own footwork and follow up on those leads, but DS tells me what some of those leads are.

2) Problems that need fixing/fan things that are really cool. I'm writing a setting book, so what settings questions do people have issues with? They're asking where all these Native Americans came from? well maybe I can look into that. They want to know how modern industry survives in an environment rife with paracritters? Alright, let's make sure we talk about how that works out. Someone found out about this awesome cult that lives in the middle of the area I'm researching? Yoink! A lot of people want more dark and gritty, or more epic, or more whatever. Let me see if I can work some of those plot hooks in there.

3) Post-publication do-betters. Apparently people don't like that I write it "ShadowRun" instead of Shadowrun. The editor didn't catch that, but there it is. So now I know for next time. People Really enjoyed my side bars, or felt my chapter was too dry. Next time, I'll do better.

None of this involves my posting at all, and therefore, it doesn't violate any NDAs.

Sure, dumpshock can't force freelancers to read and integrate comments. For a freelance who refuses to visit, yeah, we're shouting in the dark. But do freelancers benefit from visiting? Absolutely.