 a spirit's death, sams can't kill spirits. or can they? ;) |
  |
 May 12 2004, 12:11 AM
Post
#26
|
|
|
Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158  |
I still prefer a shotgun with rocksalt. :) That's a base Power of 10. Failing that, those water-filled capsule rounds are both cheap and very effective (as much as insectide-filled ones are against bug spirits).
|
 |
 
|
|
May 12 2004, 12:42 AM
Post
#27
|
|||||
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Um. Dude. No. BBB, p 188, top of right column.
As per the errata, that only works on spirits of force 4 or less. Force 5 and up are unaffected. (Yes, I don't always like it either.) Gamma-scopolamine can do the trick, but that's not cheap. The cheapest method for hurting spirits I've found is to use the most abnormal weapons possible. Toxic waste and acid will do the trick, usually. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
May 12 2004, 12:53 AM
Post
#28
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
Eh? Rocksalt should easily count as Elemental Earth, halving the benefits of Immunity to Normal Weapons (even against an Earth Elemental, oddly enough). Both that and water-filled (or dirt, or citric acid, or anything else) capsule rounds are a dime a dozen, and certainly cheaper than Gamma-Scopolamine. Not that I understand your reference to that to begin with, considering materialized spirits have a complete and total immunity to toxins and drugs (as well they should since they're not biological), nor is it elemental in nature.
And yes, I know I wasn't 100% accurate about the willpower thing. What I was trying to say is that it's not the only way to deal with a materialized spirit, but it is about the only way short of a dual-natured character to deal with an astral one. |
|
|
|
|
May 12 2004, 02:24 AM
Post
#29
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Think that's weird? A flame thrower will burn a fire elemental as well as an air elemental.
|
|
|
|
|
May 12 2004, 03:15 AM
Post
#30
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
I don't think that water-filled capsule rounds should do anything except mildly annoy fire elementals. The rocksalt shotgun is an old classic, though. Fun stuff.
|
|
|
|
|
May 12 2004, 03:28 AM
Post
#31
|
|||
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Um, why? Why should rock salt count as elemental earth, when lead doesn't? Water-filled capsule rounds provide the base damage code, so they don't affect the spirit's immunity. Now, if you use lead that's been converted into a Radical, I'd gladly say that counts as an abnormal weapon. But that's pricey. Bottom line-- it's not easy to get around a spirit's Immunity to Normal Weapons. It's entirely doable, but it's not nearly as easy as you suggest. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 12 2004, 03:35 AM
Post
#32
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
Rocksalt is far less processed than simple tap water or the fuel used in a flamethrower, yet both of those work just as well. As far as why bullets don't work, I have no clue; they should have left Metal out of the Elemental Effects category to avoid that inconsistency in the rules.
Likewise, a water-filled capsule round will work just as effectively as an insecticide-filled capsule round (or splash grenade for that matter) will against an insect spirit. The latter is definitely canonical, even though the insecticide-filled rounds should "provide the base damage code." And yes, it is easy to get around a spirit's Immunity to Normal Weapons. You just prefer not to. |
|
|
|
|
May 12 2004, 03:38 AM
Post
#33
|
|
|
Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I personally consider anything with an OR above 2 to be unnatural and thus unable to qualify as a natural element. Which is pretty much everything.
|
|
|
|
|
May 12 2004, 03:42 AM
Post
#34
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
So you're saying that a splash grenade filled with water will harm a spirit? Might as well just pee on them and save the trouble of getting a grenade. You could even assign extra damage if you had asparagus for dinner the night before. ;) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 12 2004, 03:52 AM
Post
#35
|
|||||
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
The fuel in a flamethrower does nothing to a spirit. It's the fire that it starts that causes damage. Tap water also doesn't hurt a spirit by itself-- it takes some form of high-pressure attack, like a firehose, to do damage. Natural wood weapons don't bypass the Immunity, even though those are less processed than rock salt. For that matter, some things that *do* hurt a spirit are very highly processed-- toxic waste, for one.
Insect spirits have a very specific Vulnerability to insecticide. And not a very powerful one at that. While I can see a case being made for fire elementals, please explain how throwing water at a river spirit will hurt it. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
May 12 2004, 04:57 AM
Post
#36
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I don't think he's suggesting that it makes sense. Just that the rules say you can do it with capsule rounds.
|
|
|
|
|
May 12 2004, 07:19 AM
Post
#37
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
If the spirit has a vulnerability to it, maybe (I don't think so myself, but I can see this as a candidate for lengthy debate). If the spirit doesn't have a vulnerability to water then those rules don't say anything about them.
And really, if that worked then the water would be superfluous; you could leave out the water and shoot empty "elemental air" rounds. You could also just hit them with a nice air-filled wiffle bat so it breaks upon impact and spills its damaging air-payload all over the hapless spirit. Although it would be pretty funny watching hardened street samurai wrap balloon-animals around their uberkatanas so they burst on a successful strike. :wobble: |
|
|
|
|
May 12 2004, 09:00 AM
Post
#38
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
I think that if a fire hose can constitute an elemental attack, then so too can shotguns using Water/Ice rounds. I think I would allow Rock Salt too.
One problem with firing abnormal ammunition at the spirits is that the power might be reduced. Oddly enough, as the immunity to normal weapons works on the base power rather than modifications from ammunition type, I think that could lead to 0 power getting through the immunity, but it still being effective. Obviously high-force spirits aren't going to care much about 0-power attacks, but modify that by burst or full-auto and most spirits are in danger again. |
|
|
|
|
May 12 2004, 10:39 AM
Post
#39
|
|
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
DMSO-Laes. If the spirit is freshly summoned, it will forget who its summoner is! And there is no damage so Immunity goes right out of the window.
|
|
|
|
|
May 12 2004, 10:57 AM
Post
#40
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Any GM who allows toxins and pathogens to have full effects (or any effects at all) on spirits needs to get his head examined.
|
|
|
|
|
May 12 2004, 11:05 AM
Post
#41
|
|
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
But that's Canon. :D
|
|
|
|
|
May 12 2004, 11:06 AM
Post
#42
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Regardless.
|
|
|
|
|
May 12 2004, 11:26 AM
Post
#43
|
|
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
If you don't play by the rules, then what are you playing?
|
|
|
|
|
May 12 2004, 11:30 AM
Post
#44
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 665 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,834 |
Air isn't an elemental effect. The elemental effects are: Acid, Blast, Fire, Ice, Light, Lightning, Metal, Sand, Smoke, and Water. So elemental Air attacks won't work but it is peculiar that bullets aren't elemental metal.
|
|
|
|
|
May 12 2004, 11:30 AM
Post
#45
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I'm playing my own game by my own rules. People from FanPro haven't come over to sue me yet.
We discussed iron bullets in an earlier thread. Aside from the water and acid bullets already mentioned, you could fill a capsule round with smoke or sand, neither of which is particularly expensive. Obviously, all of those would be absolutely horrible as small-arm projectiles. Any bullet constructed of materials with a density close to that of water will only be effective to a fraction of the range of normal bullets, probably around 10%. With similar powder charges/pressures, the bullet would leave the barrel at an insane speed and then slow to a halt quickly. A capsule round filled with air fired from a pistol would probably be effective and accurate at the same kind of ranges as a low-powered airsoft gun. Anyone got an effective range quote for RL rubber bullets for any firearm? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 12 2004, 11:35 AM
Post
#46
|
|||
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Which makes it difficult and very different to have a discussion with. After all, you are talking about your game with your own rules, where I'm just going by the book. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 12 2004, 11:43 AM
Post
#47
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
And that's why you need to get your head examined. I dread the possibility of you finding a bible or quran or similar literary work...
It is worth noting that I always mention when I'm using logic or referring to house rules instead of quoting the rulebooks. [Edit]Back to what got this started: Would you allow Laes to be effective against materialized spirits in your games, then? Seriously, if it came up, would you allow that to happen? How about some nice CS/Tear Gas? Pepper spray to get rid of that nasty Fire Elemental, maybe?[/Edit] |
|
|
|
|
May 12 2004, 11:47 AM
Post
#48
|
|||
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You mean you have an alternative interpretation of Thou Shalt Not Kill/Steal/etc. It is also worth noting that I always follow the rulebooks on rules questions. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 12 2004, 11:50 AM
Post
#49
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Nope, but I have an alternative interpretation of rabbits chewing their cud.
And bats being birds. And four-legged insects. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: May 12 2004, 11:51 AM |
|
|
|
|
May 12 2004, 11:53 AM
Post
#50
|
|||
|
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Those are "shadowtalk", not rules... :D *apologies for the slightly blasphemous statement* |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 28th September 2025 - 11:22 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.