[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The problem being that this cripples any mundane character compared to awakened characters, since a lot of cyberware and equipment provides no meaningful effect without wireless. On the other hand, if you turn it on, there's no meaningful defense a character themselves can employ to protect against Matrix attacks. In the end, this makes mundane characters vastly less effective than awakened characters.


Indeed. In practice it became a very badly implemented, fluffwise ridiculous nerf bat for anyone mundane and augmented. For an edition that wanted to emphathise the cyberpunk element in Shadowrun, SR5 is very busy to nerf the Augmented, anyway (and is there even one new novel that doesn't have an awakened or emergent protagonist?)

Perhaps, but I have yet to actually see such a crippling of Mundane characters (though I guess it is possible) vs. the Awakened characters. Awakened characters have always outshined the Mundane in practice for the most part, so the wireless issues don't seem to be the issue here. And since you can now get an internal router, some of that complaint goes away (not that that excuses the potential problems). As to no meaningful effect, there is that. I agree that SR5 is working very hard to nerf Augmented/Technomantic builds. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Smash]

What breaks the rules? Particularly, if there are hidden icons in the vicinity, why should a matrix perception test give you more information than: "There are so-and-so number of hidden icons"?

The rules specifically state that each success on a perception test reveals one piece of information about that device. i.e Who owns it, what it is, what it's matrix mumbo jumbo is (Mac addresses or whatever). Having the device hidden just makes the chances of getting net successes harder. It doesn't make it impossible.

[Smash]

Thats the point where you use 1000 small stealth tags in silent mode. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

here's the thing with that. CLEARLY, the writers were not aiming for this to be a solution. They wouldn't cook up the wireless system to allow such a simple tactic to rend it utterly useless and it's not confirmed in the rules, it’s just assumed perhaps by an absence of rules.

And it has a myriad of drawbacks. For a start, they’re all in exactly the same place. So assuming that a decker/technomancer is within 100m of you and assuming that this completely renders their ability to find and hack your commlink redundant it still makes your location an obvious point of concern.

If I did a matrix search and found 1000 hidden icons that claim to all be commlinks in the same location, I’m probably sending the Red Samurai there to shoot first and to ask questions later.

What a more realistic use of the wrapper program is likely to be is for hiding in plain sight. Someone who can see your icon broadcasting is perhaps less likely to examine it if they are not suspicious of it.

[Blade]

here's the thing with that. CLEARLY, the writers were not aiming for this to be a solution. They wouldn't cook up the wireless system to allow such a simple tactic to rend it utterly useless and it's not confirmed in the rules, it’s just assumed perhaps by an absence of rules.

Yes, but the thing is that the rules allow it. So there's a disconnect between the setting (where this kind of tactics isn't supposed to be used) and the rules (where this tactics work). It can be easily solved by saying that for some reason this tactic doesn't work, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a problem in the rule.

[Glyph]

Someone who doesn't want to be wirelessly vulnerable has the even simpler tactic of turning their wireless off. Running silent and having a lot of dummy wireless devices also running silently is a valid tactic, though. And Matrix perception only lets you know there is an icon running silently out there; it doesn't light them all up.

[Smirnov]

And it has a myriad of drawbacks. For a start, they’re all in exactly the same place. So assuming that a decker/technomancer is within 100m of you and assuming that this completely renders their ability to find and hack your commlink redundant it still makes your location an obvious point of concern.

Only everyone is carrying 1000 tags. Because it costs like 100 bucks and protects you from any hacker. Do not only shadowrunner would do this, but also security teams and even common folk who don't want their datajack to be bricked.

[hermit]

Someone who doesn't want to be wirelessly vulnerable has the even simpler tactic of turning their wireless off.

Then better not even buy them in the first place, because SR5 is designed to punish you for that by having devices and cyberware contribute nothing in any way meaningful without WiFi boni. I suppose they thought this was some brilliant nudging.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Then better not even buy them in the first place, because SR5 is designed to punish you for that by having devices and cyberware contribute nothing in any way meaningful without WiFi boni. I suppose they thought this was some brilliant nudging.

The general +2 Limit is a boon (and you don't have to have active wireless for it), if you can use the Limit boosts. But I do agree with you for the most part. No need to Have wireless devices at all, save for the ubiquitous Comlink when one wants to actually look like a common man (Music, Pics, and you have to broadcast that SIN in certain areas don't you know). AS for Wireless enabled Cyberware? Epic Fail on all levels. *shakes head*

[SpellBinder]

Then better not even buy them in the first place, because SR5 is designed to punish you for that by having devices and cyberware contribute nothing in any way meaningful without WiFi boni. I suppose they thought this was some brilliant nudging.

I feel like my nose is being forcefully rubbed in it.

[hermit]

The general +2 Limit is a boon (and you don't have to have active wireless for it), if you can use the Limit boosts.

Yeah, but it's only interesting if you have a basic pool well beyond 15, and I don't see that being the rule in moderate-Karma characters.

[Blade]

IIRC, Wireless bonuses and cyberware that eats the soul are part of the "everything has a price" concept. Did they finally extend this concept to Awakeneds or not?

[hermit]

Not unless you consider "boundless opportunities and no limits" to be the price paid.

And yes, it was. This concept never extended well beyond them, with the exception of 'mancers, whose prie was being hit with the nerf bat really hard for existing.

[apple]

here's the thing with that. CLEARLY, the writers were not aiming for this to be a solution.

Thank you for pointing it out. Here is the issue: Bull explicitly stated that the new matrix is completely abstract. No realism whatsoever - game rules, not simulation rules, not story rules (I know only the German words for the well known holy trinity of rule design, not quite sure about the english words for "gamistisch").

And thats the problem: if you have a complete abstract rule system, which denies any resemblance with reality then you cannot argue with reality, when it comes to limits, possibilities and/or "realistic" actions. You only have the rules and the description of the world, nothing else, certainly you dont have "realistic" limits, because the designers explicitly stated that they wanted to move away from realism (which the SR4 matrix at least tried to balance (perhaps not very successful)).

So.

Fuck realism. More or less Jason Hardys and Bulls words from the development time of SR5 (which was now how many years ago?).

Good. So only rules and a vague world description. Because realism is not gritty and dark and only serves the awakened transhuman skinlink bullshit.

Are tags cheap? Yes they are.
Are tags small and lightweight? Yes they are.
Can you carry 1000 of them with you in a small box without any real size/weight/volume constraints? Yes you can.
Can you distribute 1k tag-packages all over the place with spirits, drones or minions just to lay down wrong hints for the physical location? Yes you can.
Do they give out a wifi / matrix signal which completely fucks up the matrix perception system, both ingame (where NPCs and agents and GODs have to scan) and out of game (where a frustrated GM throws away the dices)? Yes they do.

For that you have play- testers which seems to have failed en masse when it comes to SR5. I mean when the first version of the SR5 PDF went online, it took only several minutes before the broken speed rules were mentioned on English and German boards. It was one or two days later until the first German Player (I think it was Medicineman) connected tags and matrix perception rules together. Granted every edition had some game breakers. Some sometimes random rule combined with X from that book and Y from that run that created something horrible. Mnemoenhancers in SR3. Bloodzilla in SR4. But I have the feeling that it´s more glaring in SR5. I feel that his edition should be nicknamed the "if we only spent more than one combat round thinking about it" edition.

And thats one of the main problems of the current edition. Thinking two steps. Not only one. As in "lets improve mundanes and make them feel engaged by reducing their usable essence, bringing no real new concepts of enhancements into the game and increasing the price sometimes by a factor of 10". The sad thing is: I really believe that the authors and devs wanted to push mundane characters, to make them feel unique and powerful again as streetsams were in the second edition.

Oh hey, one attack only.

And because Wifi is so enganging and fun all our missio3n NPCs are running around with wifi off. You know, so that the PC hacker can have fun too. Or not.

For not having anything to brick besides the guy who is the enemy hacker who could be blackhammered since SR1.

Great design.

As Harlequin 2 with the recommendation to leave two of the most iconic cyberpunk archetypes at home.

PLAY MORE MAGIC; WE DONT HAVE ENOUGH AWESOMENESS FOR MAGIC!!!

BUT MAGIC HAS LIMITS

Yeah, nothing which cannot be solved with 25¥. And there is of course nooooo possible way a clever player could use reagents ... creatively.

That post may contain slight hints of sarcasm.

SYL

[hermit]

not quite sure about the english words for "gamistisch"

"gamist". It's actually an anglicism anyway.

For that you have play- testers which seems to have failed en masse when it comes to SR5.

Playtesting has failed. It's unfair to put all the blame on playtesters though, I'd say.

[Isath]

Saying playtest failed, would be implying that it was up to the playtesters. Also it is a question of knowing what the playtests actually prevented. Whatever the case, at the end of the day it is the job of QA and ultimately the Line-Developer to make decisions. The playtesters of shadowrun usually are volunteers that provide data. What has failed is CGL. I gahter it is a mixture of actually liking some of the crap so much, that they pull it through anyway, not caring enough about other crap to do it right and ultimately, not really knowing what they are doing.

That being said, I do not need SR or any P&P to be completely unexploitable, there us a GM after all and a good GM is no slave to RAW. Still, SR5 is far too flawed and incoherent. While there are good authors at work, the core is rotten.

[Smash]

And Matrix perception only lets you know there is an icon running silently out there; it doesn't light them all up.

Why doesn't it?

I get 2 net hits. I choose to know the location of the device and what the device is.

[Smash]

Good. So only rules and a vague world description. Because realism is not gritty and dark and only serves the awakened transhuman skinlink bullshit.

Are tags cheap? Yes they are.
Are tags small and lightweight? Yes they are.
Can you carry 1000 of them with you in a small box without any real size/weight/volume constraints? Yes you can.
Can you distribute 1k tag-packages all over the place with spirits, drones or minions just to lay down wrong hints for the physical location? Yes you can.
Do they give out a wifi / matrix signal which completely fucks up the matrix perception system, both ingame (where NPCs and agents and GODs have to scan) and out of game (where a frustrated GM throws away the dices)? Yes they do.

So why don't 2 net hits on a perception test totally remove that tactic from validity? Particularly since you can't slave 1000 tags and they're rating 1. They're not going to to be able to stealth very well and so the threshold just can't be that high.

So I get my 2 successes, I detect 1001 icons, 1 of which is a comlink, 1000 others that are stealth tags. I just simply ignore the stealth tags and attack the comlink (given that my 2nd hit gives me the location.

[Glyph]

Why doesn't it?

I get 2 net hits. I choose to know the location of the device and what the device is.

What I meant was, it just tells you there is at least one hidden icon. Yes, you can use your additional Matrix perception tests to get more information about the randomly selected icon you found. But you don't know whether there are 2, 10, or 100 more hidden icons out there. You would think so, but nope. Truth be told, I've never liked the Matrix perception rules, in any edition.

[apple]

Exactly.

SYL

[apple]

Saying playtest failed, would be implying that it was up to the playtesters.

Point taken. Let me precise it: somewhere in the chain between playtesters, authors and dev something went really wrong. Since we all know what Jason Hardy counts as quality work ...

SYL

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Why doesn't it?

I get 2 net hits. I choose to know the location of the device and what the device is.

ONE DEVICE, of 1000 Hidden RFID's per Shadowrunner on the run, not counting other hidden distractions. So using your logic, you would need 1000 Rolls (of 2 net hits) to debug all those RFID's and you likely STILL did not see the hidden Comlink in the morass of signals generated (because, you know, you only get to identify ONE RANDOM SIGNAL per Net Hit). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[SpellBinder]

ONE DEVICE, of 1000 Hidden RFID's per Shadowrunner on the run, not counting other hidden distractions. So using your logic, you would need 1000 Rolls (of 2 net hits) to debug all those RFID's and you likely STILL did not see the hidden Comlink in the morass of signals generated (because, you know, you only get to identify ONE RANDOM SIGNAL per Net Hit). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Just wait for the HERF gun and EMP grenades...

Oh, wait, that'll totally gimp the hackers that whined that they had nothing to do in SR4 and before.

[apple]

They will probably only work with wifi bonus. Probably "Wifi off: makes funny sounds / Wifi on: you can project an EM ray on one active item because to create an EMP ray takes too much computer power which cannot be delivered by an 800k cyberdeck. If you do that however you will fry your own devices and cyberware as well. Because, well, you are not as awesome as an Awakened".

SYL

[Isath]

Point taken. Let me precise it: somewhere in the chain between playtesters, authors and dev something went really wrong. Since we all know what Jason Hardy counts as quality work ...

Agreed.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Just wait for the HERF gun and EMP grenades...

Oh, wait, that'll totally gimp the hackers that whined that they had nothing to do in SR4 and before.

Indeed... Not sure who those Hackers were, though. If they had nothing to do, they were not trying hard enough. My Cyberlogician was always inundated with tasks in SR4, and nary an attack on cyberware was there to be seen on that list...