[X] My Assistant

[Medicineman]

The problem with SR5 is that it is not SR4, or SR3, or SR2, or SR1.

....

No ! The Problem ist SR5 IS SR4A (mostly except for the Matrix and some other slight differencies)
BUT it is SR4A in BAD and with Limits

with the same Dance
Medicineman

[hermit]

But I don't know why people think shadowrunners are supposed to be millionaires.

Given their price policy, CGL seems to think differently, or at least elements within CGL.

So starting characters with 18 or 20 dice are not "average" people. They are generally statistical outliers.

And Elite security are average people? Or, in more gamist terms, you think matching statistical outliers with average people is a worthy challenge? Sorry, that may be your way of rationalizing around some of SR5'S innate problems, but that doesn't mean it makes a whole lot of sense to others.

The problem with SR5 is that it is not SR4, or SR3, or SR2, or SR1.

SR5 is SR4 that wants to be SR3, but isn't very good at it.

Most security deckers will be operating on the Site Host. Not scanning the open Matrix Grid around the Site itself.

Why should they' There's ICE to do that job in the host. They're far more effective in the open Matrix.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, the the problem with that line of thinking is that the highest attainable base dicepool appears to hover around 18(6 in attribute, 12 in skill), not counting specilizations or gear. The most talented int he world may get 20 dice from attribute and skill, and augmentations can push that 4 higher. Thats the base line for "best in the world". So starting characters with 18 or 20 dice are not "average" people. They are generally statistical outliers.

You do realize that the Starting Character with 18 Dice is still just a Professional level Character, yes (Mine started with a Skill 6, Starting Attribute 6, Specialty, Quality for +2 and HotSim for 18 Dice)? An Elite Character has skills around 9-10 and stats above 6 (Character currently has skill 6, Attribute 8, several Specialties, Positive Quality for +2 in several skills and HotSim for 20 Dice - But still only Professional Level). So no, I do not see Average Corporate Deckers that have been doing their job for a while as "Average." I expect them to be at least in a starting PC's league. And Veteran Level is a Skill 7. And Yes, they also will enjoy many benefits a Shadowrunner will not, but that does not mean that you give them less ability than a starting Professional.

And that brings me to one of the big disconnects of SR5, for me at least. The Skill System (my other is Global Limits). While many people like that skills now go above SR4's Legendary 7, I am not one of them. Yes, in SR4, you can start out as best in the world, in one skill, and possibly even Legendary. In SR5, that level is now what we know as Professional/Veteran. Problem is that taking your character to Elite is now stupid expensive (Used to be a Skill 5, but is now 9-10), never mind Legendary. And while that appeals to some (I like it in some ways in theory, since my goal was always to start at Professional and improve, but execution is not equal to theory here) but it irritates people since they will likely never see Elite Status in their core skills, let alone support skills. Even 200 Karma in to our campaign, we have YET to see a skill 7, though we do have some working towards it (and mind, that is in a single skill to this point - yes, I know one could just pound Karma into raising skills to double digits, but that is rarely logical, nor does it generally represent a normal progression for people. Such skill and knowledge is garnered over many years of experience, not months, and is generally (successful or not) represented in game by training times). Many games do not go half that in Karma. So effectively you will never see Elite Status. And that sucks.

[Medicineman]

f.E.
the CGL Guys realized that a Skill Level of 6 (in 4A) is not enough, especially when a Char can start with Skills of 5 or 6
so they raised the Levels.
That is a superb Idea !
BUT (!)
A Skill Level of 12 is too high, it can hardly be achieved by Chars (especially because they reduced the Karma Rewards for Runs which is another minor Problem)
Now only the NPCs can make use of the higher skillrating and the higher pools,
You find average (Prof 3 ) NPCs with Pools of 12,15 or more Dice. Something a PC (and his Player) can only dream of !
A raising to 9 (10 with exceptional talent) would have been perfect,
for PCs there would still be room to grow but the "Top is in Reach"

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

that's what I think about the Subject of the new Skill Rating

HougH!
Medicineman

[hermit]

SR4's skills had low granularity, and an increase in that was necessary. 12 goes too high though; it already unbalances the game's core resolution mechanic (plus, Limits work against making high pools actually useful). I'd have preferred adding 3 levels unattainable by starting characters, with skills effectively one to 10 (and 7 a starting maximum, going by SR4 rules for all buying/increases).

Limits, while not bad in theory, have weird effects in practice, like trolls being super ninjas due to their high physical limit, which comes from them being 3 meters tall and weighing in at about half a metric ton. Some ninja.

[Moirdryd]

Mostly because, despite the new Matrix environment, when you actually look at things like Hosts and the way they're talked about further in Data Trails, what you have is a fairly close Wireless Matrix to that of 3rd Edition. Most non-personal Devices will either be on or slaved to a Host. Security Spiders are just like the sec-deckers of the bygone age meaning that they're a limited/expensive talent pool (less so than magi but far more so than security guards) and a lot of Corps will most likely use One Host to serve Multiple Physical Sites, it's cheaper and more efficient. Because of this odds are that an actual Security Decker/Spider won't be anywhere near the physical location of a run unless the run is taking place on a rather significant building (MCT Tower in Downtown Seattle etc).

Now, what you're likely to get in terms of devices being located by onsite security is a "specialist" security guard who, odds are, will not be anywhere near as good as an actual security spider (elite teams or bad luck excepting) who can take a look around at the local Matrix and try to spot the Running Silent icons which could certainly alert the security team to an unwarranted intrusion assuming it's successful and the site in question doesn't have a bunch of Silent Icons there anyway. But at that juncture it's kind of like dodging security cameras and check points and there are methods to avoid this, jammers for one, slaving things to Cyberdecks for another (granted not being able to slave PANs to a deck makes this harder, but you can house rule like I have), implanting the RFID codes of your team's things into the manifests for the site's device log and so forth. There's also nothing that say's that you can an instant physical location when you spot a Device, you only know that it's within X meters (probably 100 since you go with the "Are there any Silent Icons within 100m of my position") You can certainly gain it's location but that's extra perception hits/ actions. Plus you can just turn the Commlink OFF if you so desire as with a few exceptions the Internal Router allows for Wireless Cyberware interface without actually being Wireless and likewise a cable from a DataJack or similar allows for SmartLink functionality and so forth.

I grant it;s not the most elegant thing in the world, but it's hardly insurmountable.

[AlyW]

Curious, as this is not something I've thought of before, is electronic warfare outside of the matrix (ie dealing with radio communications, sensor jamming and such) still a thing in the 2075s?

[Lionhearted]

Curious, as this is not something I've thought of before, is electronic warfare outside of the matrix (ie dealing with radio communications, sensor jamming and such) still a thing in the 2075s?

With how easy it is to cobble together an FM receiver its unlikely that this kind of tech will ever go out of style, yeah maybe in general urban settings... but Pirate radio, underground communities, survival situations, military expeditions looking for reliable and repairable tech? Yeah you will still find radio equipment...

[Glyph]

Riggers can use the electronic warfare skill for noise reduction, and anyone can use a jammer. There are still radio signals and such, but pretty much everything is on the Matrix. Micro-transceivers can have their wireless turned off, although they are only good for short-range communications then.

[AlyW]

Hrm, good to know. Considering cobbling together an EW specialist, wasnt sure if there was room for such in the setting

[AlyW]

Next question!

I haven't used Martial Arts in previous editions; I've been looking over Martial Arts in Run & Gun, and I'm a little confused on how to acquire them.

If I spend points in the Unarmed Combat skill, how do I then get to the martial arts form and technique? My *guess* is that they are separate purchases, since it seems like the various techniques modify basic combat abilities (such as Chin Na giving a +2 bonus to Physical Limits on subdue attacks). So how many skill ranks one has in unarmed combat is irrelevant. Am I correct in this?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Next question!

I haven't used Martial Arts in previous editions; I've been looking over Martial Arts in Run & Gun, and I'm a little confused on how to acquire them.

If I spend points in the Unarmed Combat skill, how do I then get to the martial arts form and technique? My *guess* is that they are separate purchases, since it seems like the various techniques modify basic combat abilities (such as Chin Na giving a +2 bonus to Physical Limits on subdue attacks). So how many skill ranks one has in unarmed combat is irrelevant. Am I correct in this?

Martial Arts are purchased separately from the Unarmed Combat Skill. It takes 7 Karma points to gain access to the Martial art (and you receive one of the 6 Maneuvers listed in the Martial Art as well, your choice). Additional Maneuvers cost an additional 5 Karma. So a total Martial Art will cost the character 32 Karma to master. Also, as far as I can tell, there is no restriction of skill placed on the purchase of the martial art maneuvers, as there was in earlier Editions (3rd IIRC); So yes, Skill rank is mostly irrelevant in the purchasing of the martial art.

[Glyph]

The whole section on combat maneuvers is a grating pain to scan through. Some of the martial arts-only techniques are mixed in with the general actions earlier, there are way too damn many actions (they really should have pared down the rules bloat), and, especially for the martial arts, they give many of them a lameass name like "leaping mantis" or "monkey climb" instead of something more descriptive of what that maneuver does.

They have a lot more martial arts styles, including ones for guns and melee weapons, but they are less distinctive, since martial arts styles don't give specific bonuses, just a different list of 6 maneuvers for each one. You can learn the same maneuver twice from two different styles, letting you turn a piddly +1 bonus to a piddly +2 bonus, so you are better off learning more than one style rather than mastering one style (this may sound a bit disparaging, but actually, this is better than SR4, where the martial arts rules were overpowered). You can only have one style at character creation, though. There is one special technique, Neijia, which can be learned by any character that knows a martial arts style - it is basically the Attack of Will that mundanes use to attack spirits.

Martial arts is also available as a specialization (it doesn't explicitly say, but I assume you need the quality before you can take the specialization). Despite the glut of martial arts stuff, how to determine when a martial arts specialization applies is still vague. There is a quality called One Trick Pony, which lets you use a single martial arts quality without knowing a martial art. It costs 7 Karma, the same as learning a martial arts style (which includes a martial arts maneuver...), so it doesn't save you anything; only take it if you want a one trick pony. There is also Lucky Move, where you spend a point of Edge to use a martial arts technique that you have not been trained in; there are usually better ways to spend Edge, in my opinion.

[AlyW]

That last paragraph could be a concern, since the character I am working on did take a martial arts specialization to unarmed combat (along with paying some karma to get the form and a couple of techniques)

[Glyph]

If you bought both a martial art and the specialization, you don't really have anything to be concerned over. Maybe it's confusing that I called martial arts styles "qualities", although I guess they aren't explicitly referred to as such. All I was saying was, it is logical to expect a character to know the karate style before taking an unarmed specialization in karate.

[Medicineman]

All I was saying was, it is logical to expect a character to know the karate style before taking an unarmed specialization in karate.

For me its the other way round. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
First You learn generic unarmed Combat, than You specialise in Karate THAN you learn the Karate Style and the Maneuvers.
Knowing a Style is for me the equivalent of being a Black Belt. And specializing is ...any colored Belt.

but To Topic.
There's lots of People that say that with a specialisation( and a +2 Bonus) in Martial Art there also comes a +2 Bonus for all the Maneuvers if you also Learn the Style.
I like that thought and use it at my tables too

with a Dance on a Table
Medicineman

[Isath]

To me it is rather odd, to seperate unarmed combat from martial arts as RAW has it. But that directly ties in to the point of weird skillweighting and something hilarious I have read in this thread about SR5 being fairly balanced.

Shadowrun as such is not balanced. While it would be hell to go and try to balance it, it is even less balanced than it could or should be. Still Shadowrun is not much about actual classes and balance is highly linked to context. One games uber-build may easily be another games "mostly useless" one. People time and again try to explain the balance of Shadowrun, by simply summing up points, igonring what they mean and how context changes their worth.

Shadowrun has never been and still is not balanced. SR5 simply adressed some issues and worsened quite a few aswell. Further more this is getting worse with almost every book they throw out there. Shadowrun should not be balanced but reasonable. It should be somewhat consitent and coherent. Yet we have multiple versions of the same thing, that rulewise work quite differently (be it powers, implants or whatnot). There are such huge differences in how the crunch is approached in different chapers of one and the same book (and over different books) that I sometimes wonder if it is still the same system or world from a few pages ago. There is no such thing as a line there (even though there appears to be a line developer).

Fluffwise it may still be shadowrunny, but I think that CGL even failed the fluff on many accounts. In all honesty I do not think that CGL is treating SR well.

Shadowrun always had problems and no edition was flawless, SR5 (while still profiting from what SR4 achieved) is the worst so far.

The sentiment that SR5 is SR4 trying to be SR3 has been mine from the first moments on, asmuch as the fact that does so badly and that the idea it self is rather bad. Again and again I really try and infact I actively play SR5, but this edition is lost.

So as for the question, which way to go... stick with the latest version of SR4 (or SR4a as some say) and if you like patch in some of the better features of SR5. Although the best thing to do would likely be to make up your own edition anyway.

[Blade]

I agree that balance in Shadowrun is different from balance in many other games (unless you play Shadowrun: Dungeon Crawl) but I don't think that it's not a concern.

It is a problem if the mage (or adept, or cyber-adpet, or rigger, or whatever) can out-face the face, out-gun the sam/adept and out-stealth the infiltration specialist (especially if he can do it at the same time).
It is a problem if one augmentation path (cyber, adept or combination of both) is consistently better than the other. If someone can create a build that will have the exact same stat as another one but with higher scores, there's a problem

So while it's illusory to search for perfect balance, it's still a good idea to try to make sure that all valid character concepts can bring something interesting to the party.

[Isath]

So while it's illusory to search for perfect balance, it's still a good idea to try to make sure that all valid character concepts can bring something interesting to the party.

True, but SR5 is not doing too well in that sector either. Then again, Shadorun probably never did.

[hermit]

It didn't but it did do better than currently.

I don't think that's by design, though; it's more the unforeseen consequence of a range of design decisions, miscommunications and differences on the idea what "everything has a price" is supposed to mean. And no line direction of note, of course, but that was par for the course in late SR4 already and isn't an SR5 exclusive problem. I do hope the ChromeFlesh PDF did not go to the printers like this, though.

[Isath]

Hermit I am right with you there. While it is a very noticable SR5 problem, I would link it more to CGL, than the edition alone. "No line-direction of note" still hits it on the spot.

[hermit]

Unfortunatly so, yes.

[Sternenwind]

Will there be a ChromedFlesh PDF version with a usable "table of content"? ^^

[SpellBinder]

Will there be a ChromedFlesh PDF version with a usable "table of content"? ^^

*shakes the magic 8-ball* "Don't Hold Your Breath"

[Smash]

No love for SR5 I see, god I barely touched my SR4 books in years but its good knowing its not worth dolling out for the new edition.
Did they improve karma gen btw? after playing SRR and Dragonfall (the reason I returned to this board really) I find the SR4 system needlessly restrictive and overly costly

Dumpshock is like the ISIS of Shadowrun forums. You're not going to get a balanced report on the new edition here. If you don't worship the Caliphate of SR4 you are an infidel!

SR5 is definately worth it.