[X] My Assistant

[Smash]

Blergh. Sounds like I'd be overall happier sticking to SR4 then. Still, I'm looking to join an SR5 game on this board. The increased cost to 'ware already bugs me cause I love my 'wares. I like the idea of bringing back Decks though.

Will have to see how things go, I guess.

The cosat of basic wares has gone up, but the upgrade path is affordable with Alpha-Delta multipliers being much more rational.

Don't listen to SR5 hate on Dumpshock. you'll miss something good if you do.

[Mikado]

Dumpshock is like the ISIS of Shadowrun forums. You're not going to get a balanced report on the new edition here. If you don't worship the Caliphate of SR4 you are an infidel!

SR5 is definately worth it.

Wow... I find that highly offensive. .. I have been lurking here for some time reading posts on 5th edition. Yes, there is a lot of vitriol for 5th (I for one don't like it) but the problems people have with it are real. From book layout, corrections not used, fluff and crunch mixed... Yes, 4th had those problems too but 5th seems to take them to a new level. Then you have the rules people don't like...

While you are calling us ISIS why don't you throw in Nazis too... ...

The cosat of basic wares has gone up, but the upgrade path is affordable with Alpha-Delta multipliers being much more rational.

Don't listen to SR5 hate on Dumpshock. you'll miss something good if you do.

You know... I had this discussion with my old GM... what's the problem with house ruling the reduced grade costs into 4th. What's wrong with using the skill levels of 5th in 4th.

Absolutely nothing... that's what. The OP asked what people thought of 5th so they responded. If he wants to base his/her opinion of 5th on what the people here say that's his choice. I for one am glad I didn't waste money on any part of 5th... I just wish I could get the few hours of my life back I spent reading the 5th ed book.

Now... I am perfectly OK getting a perma-ban for what I am about to write but...

Next time you want to spout off your mouth equating people to ISIS, or Nazis for that matter, shut the fuck up and keep it to yourself.

[Smash]

Wow... I find that highly offensive. ..

You're pretty easily offended then. It's called a metaphor. I'm saying that the opinions here are in the extreme, They should not be taken as the mainstream view. In fact, they're not even close. ISIS was used for gravitas, nothing more.

You know... I had this discussion with my old GM... what's the problem with house ruling the reduced grade costs into 4th. What's wrong with using the skill levels of 5th in 4th. Absolutely nothing... that's what.

Go nuts. I never said you couldn't.

The OP asked what people thought of 5th so they responded. If he wants to base his/her opinion of 5th on what the people here say that's his choice. I for one am glad I didn't waste money on any part of 5th... I just wish I could get the few hours of my life back I spent reading the 5th ed book.

As well as being easily offended, you are also hard of reading. He didn't ask for people's opinions on whether he should get the editiion but rather what the key differences were. What he got was basically a load of opinionated bollocks.

Here it is again for your benefit:

I've a fair amount of exp. playing SR4, and have never played SR5. I am currently working my way through the SR5 core book, albeit slowly due to time constraints. So perhaps, could someone here give me a super-brief primer on what the big changes (if any?) between the two editions are?

After about a page of hate the guy had already written off the edition. Just as well he didn't draw a picture of Jordan Weisman................

Now... I am perfectly OK getting a perma-ban for what I am about to write but...

Next time you want to spout off your mouth equating people to ISIS, or Nazis for that matter, shut the fuck up and keep it to yourself.

I hope you don't. I have a pretty thick skin.

[Smirnov]

Wanna mess with the spider? Buy 10 throwaway commlinks, and toss them out around you. Thats a thousand bucks, and it gives you 1 in 11 odds of being found immediately. If everybody in the group does that, then you just created a whole bunch of white noise to dig through.

So, the infinity mirror is back. So much for fixing the matrix. But I remember someone from design team saying that the way to fix this issue is to kick the player who tries stuff like that. So, I guess, problem solved.

[Smash]

So, the infinity mirror is back. So much for fixing the matrix. But I remember someone from design team saying that the way to fix this issue is to kick the player who tries stuff like that. So, I guess, problem solved.

This is again, not even an issue. If you make your matrix perception check each hit tells you something about the icon. Now admittedly this is a pretty vague rule that could have been easily tightened up but you can either interpret it as:

1) "Oh, there's 10 shite commlinks and 1 deck" as the result of the roll or:

2) "There's 11 unknowns" because we assume that people can make icons give whatever rubblish information they want which then breaks the rules.

I tend to go for the former.

[Glyph]

Smash, if you have a problem with any of the things that people have been saying about SR5's editing, wireless rules, martial arts rules, or anything else we've been talking about, then feel free to rebut any of it. But be specific. Just saying "They're a bunch of haters" doesn't really cut it. Say why we're supposedly being unfair.


Your last post was a good start. I would probably agree with you, assuming the icons were all within insta-spotting distance and not running hidden. The problem (for the hacker) arises when either the icons are running silently, or they are using the Wrapper program on their icons.

[apple]

You're pretty easily offended then. It's called a metaphor.

So we can call the SR5/WAR! authors/line developer and fans Nazis for the "Works bring freedom" chapter in WAR?

Just as a metaphor of course?

SYL

[Redjack]

Personal attacks, flaming, trolling, and baiting are prohibited. This includes any form of racism, sexism or religious intolerance.

The ISIS comment was way out of line. Stop trolling for a flame war or post somewhere else, it's that simple.

[Wothanoz]

This is again, not even an issue. If you make your matrix perception check each hit tells you something about the icon. Now admittedly this is a pretty vague rule that could have been easily tightened up but you can either interpret it as:

1) "Oh, there's 10 shite commlinks and 1 deck" as the result of the roll or:

2) "There's 11 unknowns" because we assume that people can make icons give whatever rubblish information they want which then breaks the rules.

I tend to go for the former.

What breaks the rules? Particularly, if there are hidden icons in the vicinity, why should a matrix perception test give you more information than: "There are so-and-so number of hidden icons"?

I find it so strange that one group of people take the position that "wireless is rubbish because its easily hackable, and you can't protect your wireless devices", without anything in the world to back them up.

Actual experience is that Commlinks are not easy to hack(anything less than a rating 4 is fairly easy, but rating 5 and better are pretty hard to hack), neither is anything else. Hacking pretty much requires top of the line equipment, and world class skills.

[Sternenwind]

Do you not need a Sleaze attribute to hide something? Doesn’t anything, not hidden/sleazed; in the matrix clearly say what it is and what it can?

[Glyph]

Sleaze is a Matrix Attribute, used as a limit for performing Matrix actions (such as hack on the fly) or to resist them (such as trace icon). Sleaze is typically used for tests involving hiding or making subtle probes or code alterations.

You don't need it to run silent, though (rules start on page 235). It is part of the test to defend against someone trying to perceive a hidden icon, so someone running a commlink would be rolling only Logic vs. the decker's Computer + Intuition (Data Processing) test. But (page 236) if there are multiple hidden icons, the decker has to randomly pick which one he is going to look at with this opposed test. That is where Wothanoz's tactic of carrying around 10 throwaway commlinks comes from - you are reducing your chances of being spotted right away to a bit less than 10%.

[Sternenwind]

He roll Logic [ - ] vs Computer + Intuitionm[Data Processing]. The silent running whatever has 0 successes, because he cannot have, use not more than 0 Successes. Whoever is looking pretty much find it/him by default. And at this point y can just run a level 1 Agent or Ice to look for stuff like that.

[apple]

Thats the point where you use 1000 small stealth tags in silent mode. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

SYL

[Moirdryd]

There is no Limit on the Logic + Sleaze roll Sternenwind so hits can be achieved without Sleaze, it's just less effective. The multiple Commlink thing is a decent idea although I tend to allow sorting of Silent Icons with Matrix Perception checks before picking which ones they want to start identifying properly (this actually makes Wrapper more useful) as I allow for the "Any Silent Running Icons within 100m/on host" and once that's established I allow hits to be used to filter by type (PANs, Commlinks, Weapons etc). Means diversion tactics can be used but it also allows Wrapper to apply more but prevents things from bogging down into the 1000 rfid tag tactic.

[Wothanoz]

There is no Limit on the Logic + Sleaze roll Sternenwind so hits can be achieved without Sleaze, it's just less effective. The multiple Commlink thing is a decent idea although I tend to allow sorting of Silent Icons with Matrix Perception checks before picking which ones they want to start identifying properly (this actually makes Wrapper more useful) as I allow for the "Any Silent Running Icons within 100m/on host" and once that's established I allow hits to be used to filter by type (PANs, Commlinks, Weapons etc). Means diversion tactics can be used but it also allows Wrapper to apply more but prevents things from bogging down into the 1000 rfid tag tactic.

I don't mind that interpretation. I dislike any interpretation that makes wireless a death sentence.

Also, for real fun: have a Technomancer and Decker team up. It's amazing what a Decker can do when a Technomancer is helping him.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Also, for real fun: have a Technomancer and Decker team up. It's amazing what a Decker can do when a Technomancer is helping him.

A Technomancer should not have to team up with a Decker to be effective. One of the biggest complaints of Technomancer players in SR5. They should be viable by themselves. They are, but you need to design for that, and designing to be the Buffer of the Decker messes with that design choice.

As for wireless being a death sentence, that is the price you pay to be wireless in SR5. Best way to avoid it is to turn off wireless. It is not necessary. May make things a bit more difficult, but it is definitely not something that you need to deal with. If the Decker is protecting a team from opposition hackers (Matrix Bodyguard) he is not performing his job of Matrix Intrusion Specialist. Action economy and all that.

[apple]

I dislike any interpretation that makes wireless a death sentence.

But ... it is the explicit goal of wifi in SR5 to be detectable and attackable. That is, according to the line developer Jason Hardy the explicit reason why wifi exists in the first place. And since you are usually playing a game of cat and mouse (or evil corp soldiers vs brave runners) being detected by an enemy who can throw Thor hammers at you is usually a death sentence only stopped when you bribe the game master with sex or chocolate.

It's amazing what a Decker can do when a Technomancer is helping him.

Yes, we all know that the current generation of SR authors would love to see the TM reduced being a pet for the real hacker.

SYL

[Sendaz]

Yes, we all know that the current generation of SR authors would love to see the TM reduced being a pet for the real hacker.

*has images of Slamm-O! telling Netcat that and the ensuing graphic violence that would ensue.*

Heh

[Deckbeard]

*has images of Slamm-O! telling Netcat that and the ensuing graphic violence that would ensue.*

Heh

'Domestically Disturbed' is my all time favorite SR short fiction.

[Medicineman]

As for wireless being a death sentence, that is the price you pay to be wireless in SR5. Best way to avoid it is to turn off wireless

or play a Mage/Mystic Adept who doesn't rely on /doesn't need WiFi

with a magical Dance
Medicineman

[Sendaz]

or play a Mage/Mystic Adept who doesn't rely on /doesn't need WiFi

with a magical Dance
Medicineman

At least until they introduce WizFi for 6th Ed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Because you know 6th approaches as foretold by the omen of the coming of the Rigger Handbook

The only core expansion books left are the rigger and technomancer handbooks,

[Glyph]

Mages already have the equivalent of going wireless - astral perception. Using it lets you see magical security features or analyze things by their aura, but it also leaves you vulnerable to astral threats. If they had put as much thought into wireless, it would have been better received. Because that is the main problem people had with wireless - its slipshod implementation. Wireless bonuses should have been for communications, remote-controlled things, or thing that could plausibly benefit from being connected to the Matrix's database.

Instead it was an illogical mess that left no one happy. Street samurai had to worry about an undetectable attack that could leave them blind or crippled, turning them away from previously-iconic augmentations like smartlinks. Deckers, the ones who supposedly benefited from this by having an "attack" they could do, found that actually pulling it off was difficult (and frustrating). And in addition to that, they got stuck with babysitting duty, tasked with defending their teammates from hacking attacks.

[hermit]

Best way to avoid it is to turn off wireless. It is not necessary.

The problem being that this cripples any mundane character compared to awakened characters, since a lot of cyberware and equipment provides no meaningful effect without wireless. On the other hand, if you turn it on, there's no meaningful defense a character themselves can employ to protect against Matrix attacks. In the end, this makes mundane characters vastly less effective than awakened characters.

Because that is the main problem people had with wireless - its slipshod implementation. Wireless bonuses should have been for communications, remote-controlled things, or thing that could plausibly benefit from being connected to the Matrix's database.

Indeed. In practice it became a very badly implemented, fluffwise ridiculous nerf bat for anyone mundane and augmented. For an edition that wanted to emphathise the cyberpunk element in Shadowrun, SR5 is very busy to nerf the Augmented, anyway (and is there even one new novel that doesn't have an awakened or emergent protagonist?)

[Moirdryd]

Two simple fixes...
1) Make the stuff work like in previous editions. This is not hard.
or, for an Official fix
2) Use the Internal Router from Chrome Flesh.

Granted 1 should have been in place from the get go but at least 2 is an official fix.

[hermit]

I wouldn't call it a fix (spend a lot of Essence so that cyberware maybe does what it's supposed to do), but it's a step in the right direction. Also, it is, according to the author, "highly controversial" among authors. Make of that what you will.