Making Essence Loss not matter for mundanes?, Some thought experiments here. Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because it's a fiddly fucking pain in the ass for everyone involved, that's what. "Hey, you know all those neat powers you invested in? Here, enjoy a blanket -4 penalty to them, because reasons."

Background counts are like rape. Sure, they're an everyday part of the setting, but as far as the player characters are concerned, it shouldn't come up often, and when it does, it should be impactful. They lose their meaning if they're just a blanket rain of drek constantly falling on the Awakened characters.

So, I just assume that any Awakened character who lives in an urban environment has adapted their spellcasting innately to compensate for general bullshit city background counts. If it's something particularly strong (the site of a furious riot triggered by anti-metahuman hatred, before the street-cleaners have gotten to power-washing the blood away,) or unusual (a peace & love hippy retreat,) then it will affect them.

And yet, if you design with Background Count in mind, it is generally impactful, but not a pain in the ass. And every mage in Shadowrun should be mindful of Background Counts. We have been using it for years to balance out mages and their uberness, ands it works well. I have yet to hear a player (other than those here) complain about it in any meaningful way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In my house rules (beginning of gear part) I've introduced the concept of "investment". Basically, the characters can invest karma into their gear (gear bought at chargen is already considered as investment) to make it sort of "permanent". They'll then always be able to easily find cheap replacement/repairs during downtime. This way, a rigger player will not have to retire his character because he lost his best drone.

Are you telling me that your Riggers are not stealing their best drones? Easiest way to acquire them, and you don't really care if they get broke. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Teulisch]

a small side-point- in cyberpunk 2020, implants reduce one of your social attributes when you get them, but you can also buy treatment to restore that attribute. ergo, by paying twice you can get implants without any real penalty.

shadowrun, by comparison, has no such thing- lost essence is simply lost. if we were to simply add a way to keep an implant while healing essence (and there is a way technically to heal essence when implants are removed already in the system), then we would have a way for those with the cash to get a LOT of ware. as this would not really help the mages any (magic loss when essence loss) the system stays balanced. its just a question of spending even more money to get ware.

and as for riggers stealing drones- i almost never see it happen in-game. the one time i did see it happen, my decker hacked and stole a drone (and then used it to shoot the original owner in the seat of his pants with his own ammo) and the van the drone arrived in. a lot of people seem to just not think about how the system/setting really works, sadly.

[Neraph]

Because it's a fiddly fucking pain in the ass for everyone involved, that's what. "Hey, you know all those neat powers you invested in? Here, enjoy a blanket -4 penalty to them, because reasons."

Background counts are like rape. Sure, they're an everyday part of the setting, but as far as the player characters are concerned, it shouldn't come up often, and when it does, it should be impactful. They lose their meaning if they're just a blanket rain of drek constantly falling on the Awakened characters.

So, I just assume that any Awakened character who lives in an urban environment has adapted their spellcasting innately to compensate for general bullshit city background counts. If it's something particularly strong (the site of a furious riot triggered by anti-metahuman hatred, before the street-cleaners have gotten to power-washing the blood away,) or unusual (a peace & love hippy retreat,) then it will affect them.

That said, this was not intended as a "I wanna make Awakened characters suck more" measure, it was an "I want augmentations to be more awesome" measure. Specifically, I think that you should have been able to go full Jensen on someone without the arbitrary game balance limit causing their soul to fall off.

Funny thing - I specifically took Astral Hazing on my most powerful mage just so I could learn to cope with BC and I knew basically no magical opposition would be prepared for me.

The way I see it, there should never be a metagame of "I can buy this at chargen, using chargen resources, but it's easy to lose, or I can buy this, which I can't in any practical scenarios lose."

The way I see things, invested points (build points or Karma,) are "insured." If some in-character thing happens that means there's no way to explain you not losing them, then you get those points back to spend however you see fit.

Basically, a player should never be put in the position of trying to decide whether they want to continue playing their current character, or just get rid of them and introduce a new one, because their current one has become so mechanically disadvantaged that a new character is an appealing option from a strictly crunch perspective. (Expendables, like grenades and Edge, are not subject to this, nor is anything purchased with (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) acquired in-game.)

Carebear.

And yet, if you design with Background Count in mind, it is generally impactful, but not a pain in the ass. And every mage in Shadowrun should be mindful of Background Counts. We have been using it for years to balance out mages and their uberness, ands it works well. I have yet to hear a player (other than those here) complain about it in any meaningful way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I actually used crippling BC in one of my games at a pivotal time for story reasons, and my players loved the fact that they all should have died because of it. That's what you get for taking a radiation mage on his home turf of a derelict hospital with a leaking nuclear reactor. All but two of a 6 person team were captured (because I didn't want to outright kill the players) and the remaining guys had to develop 300 BP mercs who were hired to help get their original characters back. The group LOVED it.

a small side-point- in cyberpunk 2020, implants reduce one of your social attributes when you get them, but you can also buy treatment to restore that attribute. ergo, by paying twice you can get implants without any real penalty.

shadowrun, by comparison, has no such thing- lost essence is simply lost. if we were to simply add a way to keep an implant while healing essence (and there is a way technically to heal essence when implants are removed already in the system), then we would have a way for those with the cash to get a LOT of ware. as this would not really help the mages any (magic loss when essence loss) the system stays balanced. its just a question of spending even more money to get ware.

and as for riggers stealing drones- i almost never see it happen in-game. the one time i did see it happen, my decker hacked and stole a drone (and then used it to shoot the original owner in the seat of his pants with his own ammo) and the van the drone arrived in. a lot of people seem to just not think about how the system/setting really works, sadly.

Due to some funny writing, Renfield from Running Wild can give you infinite Essence. Just saying.

[Blade]

Are you telling me that your Riggers are not stealing their best drones? Easiest way to acquire them, and you don't really care if they get broke. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Indeed, the rigger character I play has only one drone: a small rotodrone used to make sure he will have signal nearly everywhere. Every thing else is stolen on the fly.
But this is not the case of all players.

With my rules, if a character has invested into drones you can still use the fluff explanation that they're actually stolen drones. But players who prefer to play riggers who build their own drones can do so without being at a disadvantage. The end result will be the same, no matter the explanation behind it.

[binarywraith]

And yet, if you design with Background Count in mind, it is generally impactful, but not a pain in the ass. And every mage in Shadowrun should be mindful of Background Counts. We have been using it for years to balance out mages and their uberness, ands it works well. I have yet to hear a player (other than those here) complain about it in any meaningful way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, generally in my games, once the players are familiar with how background count works, they just plan to deal with it. Same way they plan to deal with not having their full firepower in upscale settings where it would attract attention, or not everything everywhere ever being on the Matrix.

[ShadowDragon8685]

In my house rules (beginning of gear part) I've introduced the concept of "investment". Basically, the characters can invest karma into their gear (gear bought at chargen is already considered as investment) to make it sort of "permanent". They'll then always be able to easily find cheap replacement/repairs during downtime. This way, a rigger player will not have to retire his character because he lost his best drone.

Hrm, yes. I very much like this idea, it's very congruent with what I did WRT character points/Rez invested into morphs and gear in Eclipse Phase. I'm not 100% in love with the way you worded it, but I hope you won't mind if I institute something to this effect.

a small side-point- in cyberpunk 2020, implants reduce one of your social attributes when you get them, but you can also buy treatment to restore that attribute. ergo, by paying twice you can get implants without any real penalty.

shadowrun, by comparison, has no such thing- lost essence is simply lost. if we were to simply add a way to keep an implant while healing essence (and there is a way technically to heal essence when implants are removed already in the system), then we would have a way for those with the cash to get a LOT of ware. as this would not really help the mages any (magic loss when essence loss) the system stays balanced. its just a question of spending even more money to get ware.

I treat magic as a permanent investment. If your maximum Magic score falls below your Magic score, you don't lose that point of Magic, you just lose access to it. IE, Billy Magician has Essence 6, Magic 6, and then Shiawase goes and gives him a surprise cyberarm, reducing his Essence to 5. Now he has Essence 5, Magic 6 (5), in standard "augmented" notation - IE, for all intents and purposes his Magic score is putting out at 5, but if his maximum Magic ever goes back up (IE, by getting the surprise cyberarm removed and having essence rejuvenation therapy, or by Initiating,) he can then use the point of Magic he already has, but which was locked away.

And as for riggers stealing drones- i almost never see it happen in-game. the one time i did see it happen, my decker hacked and stole a drone (and then used it to shoot the original owner in the seat of his pants with his own ammo) and the van the drone arrived in. a lot of people seem to just not think about how the system/setting really works, sadly.

The problem with stealing good combat drones is that it almost requires a Run in and of itself, and it tends to get a lot of unhappy people looking out for any sign of that stolen drone. Thus, it can wind up completely distracting from the main point of the game.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The problem with stealing good combat drones is that it almost requires a Run in and of itself, and it tends to get a lot of unhappy people looking out for any sign of that stolen drone. Thus, it can wind up completely distracting from the main point of the game.

Greatly depends upon how good the Rigger/Hacker is, and how selective he is. I always went with a combination of Stolen Drones and Reconstructed drones, with an occasional purchased one for something specific I could not get any other way. Worked out well.

[Moirdryd]

On the note to Cyberpunk vs Shadowrun for Cyberware 'cost' Shadow has the same thing in a different way. Grades of 'ware. You pay more, it costs less essence, or you can get essence holes with upgrading the quality of your cyber.

We just finished Splintered State tonight with the team getting set up and ambushed (trying to avoid spoilers). My guys loved the threat of going down in this one (especially as the Street Sam went down early) and everyone was super jumpy when it looked like the Adept and the Mage were going to drop because of the Risk of Trauma patches and the Risk of hitting Overflow (we use my houserule/conversion from 3rd). They were getting the dice ready to resist magic loss every time I aimed an NPC at them and muttering "This time I know I'm screwed" with a grin on their faces. Was brilliant.

[Blade]

Hrm, yes. I very much like this idea, it's very congruent with what I did WRT character points/Rez invested into morphs and gear in Eclipse Phase. I'm not 100% in love with the way you worded it, but I hope you won't mind if I institute something to this effect.

No problem ang I'd be interested in knowing how you used/changed it.

[ShadowDragon8685]

No problem ang I'd be interested in knowing how you used/changed it.

Here is the (currently very WIP) document I'm using.

[ShadowDragon8685]

No problem ang I'd be interested in knowing how you used/changed it.

Here is the (currently very WIP) document I'm using.

Danmit, you joined as Anonymous Nyancat, reminding me of the existence of Nyancat, and now I have to listen to Nyancat.

Link, because now all of you have been reminded of the existence of Nyancat.

[KCKitsune]

So . . Deckers do not lose thier Decks, Riggers do not lose Drones, Samurai do not lose hugely expensive equipment like full Powered Armor or Military Grade Weapons either then?
Because that's what's been happening. Everybody else took losses while the mages somehow got a free ride because it'd hurt their karma too much . .

The biggest difference between the rigger and the Samurai loosing gear is that they can replace it. Sure might take a little bit, but they CAN replace it. SR5 deckers and the cyberdeck... the price tag for that crap is WAY, WAY, WAY too expensive for a 'Runner to have. I still like the idea that you can get a case and put in like 5 or 6 decent commlinks and make a cyberdeck, but no CGL made the "brilliant" decision to make cyberdecks out of gold and diamonds.

[ShadowDragon8685]

The biggest difference between the rigger and the Samurai loosing gear is that they can replace it. Sure might take a little bit, but they CAN replace it. SR5 deckers and the cyberdeck... the price tag for that crap is WAY, WAY, WAY too expensive for a 'Runner to have. I still like the idea that you can get a case and put in like 5 or 6 decent commlinks and make a cyberdeck, but no CGL made the "brilliant" decision to make cyberdecks out of gold and diamonds.

Why do people keep talking about SR5 in this thread? I did remember the SR4 tag, didn't I?

Yes, yes I did.

That said, even at SR4 prices, the replacement cost for a Sammy's guns and a hacker's commlink, are literally orders of magnitude apart, especially if the hacker was a dumbshit and didn't have his programs backed up elsewhere. It's just as bad if not worse for the rigger.

A Sammy who loses his "Vera" is probably out, at most, 10K, unless his Vera was one of those apeshit redonkulous guns with high-end commlinks crammed into them for absolutely no discernible reason whatsoever, or was a Thunderstrike Gauss Rifle or something equally crazy.

He can also get himself back up to about 88% combat effectiveness by grabbing a cheap-as-fuck Colt M23 and slapping on a 300 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) overbarrel smartgun system. Throw in about 2-3 mags of APDS and SnS, and he's back up and running up under 2 grand.

2 grand worth of Commlink does not buy you much commlink. Maybe enough to penetrate a Stuffer Shack, if you're literally FastJack. 2 grand is even less drone, that's in the territory of "spydrones only."

2 grand worth of vehicle is generally "stolen, with the cops still looking for it."

[KCKitsune]

Why do people keep talking about SR5 in this thread? I did remember the SR4 tag, didn't I?

My apologies. My position is even easier to justify then.

Sure replacing a commlink is expensive, but unless you have to have absolutely the bleeding edge of tech you can replace the commlink with a Signal6 / Response 6 custom commlink for 11,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) using off the shelf components. If you can cook your own chips, then you can spend 16,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for a commlink with Response 6, Signal 6, Simsense Accelerator, Response Enhancer 6, Armor Case 10, and Hardening 6. Expensive as frak in the best of times, nasty in the worst, but doable.

The above does NOT apply if you're wanting a military grade commlink. My personal opinion is that a military grade commlink should be a cybercommlink and put in a cyberleg (full or lower, doesn't matter) with a armor upgrade. People don't shoot for the leg and your hand can get sliced off pretty easy. You also can put armor on top of the cyberleg to make it even harder to damage the commlink.

[Neraph]

I've never understood why people upgrade Signal. Get a SatCom and put a fiber optic cable connecting it to your commlink - BAM! Signal 8 for 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .

[ShadowDragon8685]

My apologies. My position is even easier to justify then.

Sure replacing a commlink is expensive, but unless you have to have absolutely the bleeding edge of tech you can replace the commlink with a Signal6 / Response 6 custom commlink for 11,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) using off the shelf components. If you can cook your own chips, then you can spend 16,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for a commlink with Response 6, Signal 6, Simsense Accelerator, Response Enhancer 6, Armor Case 10, and Hardening 6. Expensive as frak in the best of times, nasty in the worst, but doable.

That's literally more than the Shadowrun guidelines suggest as the entire team's payment for a whole run which sees you having shoot-outs with vampires, hostile Runners, company men, and if you're really unlucky, Knight Errant.

So that's basically the entire Team writing off a whole run and dipping into the beer money fund, just to get one member of the group back in shape to do their actual job. That's mental, and that's assuming that the hacker has backups of all his high-rating programs.

And the worst part is that, in a lot of cases, the hacker having a white-hot commlink is a boolean pass/fail for your objectives. If the Sammy misses a shot, but doesn't get geeked, he can shoot again next turn, but in a lot of cases, if the hacker triggers an active alert because hi commlink isn't up to snuff (say, because he's being forced to make do with an R3 commlink,) that's it, game over, the system goes on high alert, security spiders start patrolling, the stuff he was trying to hack gets locked down/erased/removed from matrix access.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I've never understood why people upgrade Signal. Get a SatCom and put a fiber optic cable connecting it to your commlink - BAM! Signal 8 for 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .

Because putting a SatCom on your Helmet looks silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

Because putting a SatCom on your Helmet looks silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Nowhere does it say it needs to be positioned A) somewhere where it doesn't move, or B) somewhere with clear LoS. I mean, do you really think you need this attached to a helmet for it to work?

EDIT: And I mean, if that's the way your GM really wants to run it, simply get a 1,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) Shiawase Kanmushi and put a 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) SatCom in that, then place it in your pocket turned on.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Nowhere does it say it needs to be positioned A) somewhere where it doesn't move, or B) somewhere with clear LoS. I mean, do you really think you need this attached to a helmet for it to work?

EDIT: And I mean, if that's the way your GM really wants to run it, simply get a 1,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) Shiawase Kanmushi and put a 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) SatCom in that, then place it in your pocket turned on.

Have you actually looked at the description of what the Sat-Link Looks Like?

Includes a Portable Satellite Dish. It would not include it if it was not a requirement. Vehicles (and yes, a Drone is a Vehicle) have different constraints for such things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Besides, why do you need the Kanmushi in your pocket? Just link to it wirelessly (which happens automatically if you are in the Mesh and it is in range of the Mesh) and you have a Satellite capable transmission. For that matter, you are almost always in the proximity of a Satellite Dish in any City you happen to be in (again, thanks to the Mesh), so it would automatically route that way anyways. You are going through a lot of effort to have world wide communications when you already have such things. The ONLY time you may need a Satellite Uplink is when you are in the middle of a no-mans land (think remote desert/wilderness area) and have need of contacting someone further than your Signal 4-6 Comlink can communicate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

Have you actually looked at the description of what the Sat-Link Looks Like?

Includes a Portable Satellite Dish. It would not include it if it was not a requirement. Vehicles (and yes, a Drone is a Vehicle) have different constraints for such things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Besides, why do you need the Kanmushi in your pocket? Just link to it wirelessly (which happens automatically if you are in the Mesh and it is in range of the Mesh) and you have a Satellite capable transmission. For that matter, you are almost always in the proximity of a Satellite Dish in any City you happen to be in (again, thanks to the Mesh), so it would automatically route that way anyways. You are going through a lot of effort to have world wide communications when you already have such things. The ONLY time you may need a Satellite Uplink is when you are in the middle of a no-mans land (think remote desert/wilderness area) and have need of contacting someone further than your Signal 4-6 Comlink can communicate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I find descriptions of gear to be secondary to their function, most times - especially when we currently have superior gear with fewer restrictions.

That said: I try never to use the Mesh when at all possible. Everything is done on Hidden mode, encrypted, and direct link. Anything else is far too easy to intercept. That's why I go for signal 8, and that's why I'm directly connected to it and it is encrypted, hidden, and otherwise secure.

Being hacked: ain't nobody got time for that.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I find descriptions of gear to be secondary to their function, most times - especially when we currently have superior gear with fewer restrictions.

That said: I try never to use the Mesh when at all possible. Everything is done on Hidden mode, encrypted, and direct link. Anything else is far too easy to intercept. That's why I go for signal 8, and that's why I'm directly connected to it and it is encrypted, hidden, and otherwise secure.

Being hacked: ain't nobody got time for that.

Modern Real Life makes no nevermind for Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You can't not use the mesh... If you interact with the Matrix at all, you are using the Mesh, in one form or another. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My Cyberlogician (SR4A) Can't even remember the last time he was actually, successfully, hacked. Happened once or twice, to be sure, but secure measures (Milspec hardware and programs) ensure that the rabble stays out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

You can't not use the mesh... If you interact with the Matrix at all, you are using the Mesh, in one form or another. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Wrong. Or at least, not entirely accurate.

SR4A, page 218, Matrix Topology, second paragraph, first sentence:

When a wireless device needs to pass information to another device in mutual Signal range, it simply sends the data.

So you can in fact have direct contact with your own devices without any interaction with the Mesh, and through encryption and using Hidden settings essentially create a miniature matrix just for your unit.

Which is what I do. Because privacy and OpSec.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wrong. Or at least, not entirely accurate.

SR4A, page 218, Matrix Topology, second paragraph, first sentence:
So you can in fact have direct contact with your own devices without any interaction with the Mesh, and through encryption and using Hidden settings essentially create a miniature matrix just for your unit.

Which is what I do. Because privacy and OpSec.

Yes, you can have direct contact, however, even a Signal 8 only gives you 100km range (Reality notwithstanding), so anything you are communicating with outside that range (and face it, in Shadowrun, there are a lot of things outside that range that are routinely used, such as Data Searches) must needs be part of the mesh (whether wired or wireless) at some point. Just because you can communicate Point to Point does not mean that your signals do not propagate through the Matrix via the Mesh; you just also happen to communicate point to point as well. You can take steps to minimize that (non-standard Links, Directional Antennae, Super Advanced Encryption Schemes, etc.), but it never eliminates it - after all, even non-standard Links propagate through the Matrix as a whole, otherwise you would never be able to communicate with the Matrix through them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Opsec is a nice dream, but is never 100% effective. As a Marine, you should understand this. Best laid plans and all that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KCKitsune]

That's literally more than the Shadowrun guidelines suggest as the entire team's payment for a whole run which sees you having shoot-outs with vampires, hostile Runners, company men, and if you're really unlucky, Knight Errant.

When you're rocking that kind of hardware, then you're worth more than the gang bangers some Johnson would hire to create a distraction. The idea that you would get less than 10,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for a 'Run that a Johnson NEEDS people of the skill level that your characters represent is ludicrous. I mean lets take it from a BEGINNING street sammy. 400 BP (or 750 Karma) gets you someone who is rocking AT LEAST 150,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) in augmentation alone. Hell, my combat medic MAGE is rocking 170,450 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) in augmentation* and people are saying that someone like him is going to work for a mere 5,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ? Are you kidding me? No, people that good are working for some serious cash.


* == to be fair, my combat medic has a a lot of cyber for a mage and that damn Synaptic Booster is expensive!