[X] My Assistant

[Lionhearted]

As I feel obliged to not leave the discussion I started here just hanging, but not wanting to disturb the topic of the thread I will continue here.
I tend to oppose people starting out being decked out in more chrome than god not so much from a gameplay perspective but rather from a thematic perspective.
Your average sammy will have wires, bone lacing, dermal plating, so on and so forth (maybe not specifically those, but in shortness ware that makes you more of a combat monster)
There is legit reasons to possess some of these augmentations outside of security or military details, but your average John on the street is not going to be decked out in that much chrome.
In a world where your average well adjusted ork can get pulled over for "looking wrong" sporting unauthorized hardware is going to meet a lot of scrutiny, sure he might have licenses for them... maybe his bone lacing is prescribed for fragile bone disease but at some point it adds up to being suspicious even at casual inspection.
Now in high society being heavily chromed would be frowned at outside of certain subcultures, surely you care more about your image than sporting that outmoded tech?
I know this tend to slate the power balanced towards awakened characters as they dont exactly wear tags saying mage on their shirt, but there is ways around that.
For one awakened characters are uniquely vurnable to astral threats, something you should remind them off, a spirit that harass an adept without any access to the astral? perfectly reasonable, being randomly pulled in because someone read your aura? totally normal. Dealing with background count and astral hazards, something mundanes never have to bother with, and of course nightmares of deep metaplanes.

What is your opinion on the matter? Do you enforce stigma and restrictions on chrome? or other things, do you run a Hong kong campaign where getting your hands on a gun is close to impossible perhaps?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, Awakened that don't interface with the Astral are no more vulnerable to it than a Mundane is, so there is that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And Ware is so ubiquitous that it barely raises an eyebrow (outside of a few specific pieces of 'ware).

I do agree that 'ware augmentations should be appropriate for the character and background. Beyond that, I do not tend to have many issues with it. I also believe that Blending In is far better than Standing Out. But that is a personal preference, I think.

MAD scanners tell if there is an anomaly, and can trigger for a lot of things not related to 'ware. Cyber scanners may be present, but not everyone is skilled in reading the data produced by such devices, and so I do not see them being that problematic, since any establishment would need to hire people to interpret the data. Some places will do so, to be sure, but I do not see it as being highly problematic in most commercial establishments, as they will not want a queue of people waiting outside their establishments, likened to airport security access, just to enter to purchase goods and services (more trouble than they are worth, and an active hindrance to commerce). As for Bioware scanners, they are completely out for the non-medical community, for the most part.

[Stahlseele]

No. Chrome is a point of SR culture. If you get rid of that, you may as well play D20 modern or Call of cthulhu or something.
It's bad enough with how magic active ones are treated preferably already. And heavily chromed does mean what exactly ?
Essence wise a certain number lost? That can be done with completely legal to own stuff already. Doesn't even have to be visible.
Highly visible chrome? That's basically a fashion trend with the youth and people who want to be "hip and with it!" in some cases.

[Lionhearted]

Well Stahl what do you expect to be considered normal?
Would John bloke look twice at a troll with a huge pneumatic arm? Do you expect to see that character in a management position or is that the guy you avoid in a seedy bar?
Would Jimmy rent-a-cop be suspicious to why you have wired reflexes while supposedly being a nobody on the street? (assuming he knows enough to spot someone with active wires)
What Im getting at that despite all skulking in the shadows polite society still carries on all around, sure no one gives a drek in the barrens what you look like, but in downtown?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well Stahl what do you expect to be considered normal?
Would John bloke look twice at a troll with a huge pneumatic arm? Do you expect to see that character in a management position or is that the guy you avoid in a seedy bar?
Would Jimmy rent-a-cop be suspicious to why you have wired reflexes while supposedly being a nobody on the street? (assuming he knows enough to spot someone with active wires)
What Im getting at that despite all skulking in the shadows polite society still carries on all around, sure no one gives a drek in the barrens what you look like, but in downtown?

95% of Cyberware is either totally accepted or not even visible to the masses (and things like Wires can be turned on and off, so there are few telltales that they are there). Only the Obvious Stuff MAY cause issues, but often, not even then. Yes, again, there are some things that may twig, and people are different; but overall, Cyberware has been accepted for the last 50 years or so.

[Stahlseele]

The bloke should only ask the question wether or not the Troll is on his side or not.
Of course the jimmy-no-stars cop would be suspicious IF he manages to spot wires.
a.) he should be unable to do so
b.) wires are not all the time active.
In the Barrens you show that YOU are the apex predator, not anybody else.
Outside the Barrens, you show that YOU are the apex predator, not anybody else.
Because you are LICENSED TO BE.
Bonelacing? Yeah, medical reasons either due to sickness(glass bones) or due to trauma([car?]accident). or due to line of work
Wired reflexes/MBW? cerebral palsy. Or due to line of work.
Cyber-Muscles? atrophy sickness of the muscles, very rare that. or due to line of work.
etc. etc. etc.
The only thing REALLY problematic is active offensive ware. Cyber-Weapons. NOTHING ELSE.
And you can still get a license for that. so line of work again.

[Pendaric]

I set the reaction according to the social out look of the individual involved at whatever time in the story they exist. Good or bad leaves the players feeling its fair.

I do dislike the complete chrome monster not because it isn't valid but I like to see characters evolve, in every way possible. The cost of chrome mean most sam's pack in the most they can at the start, rather than getting upgraded in game due to the down time healing takes and the sheer expense.

I therefore like to give enough cash and time/bargins to allow cyber and magic character to "level up" at mostly the same time.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I set the reaction according to the social out look of the individual involved at whatever time in the story they exist. Good or bad leaves the players feeling its fair.

I do dislike the complete chrome monster not because it isn't valid but I like to see characters evolve, in every way possible. The cost of chrome mean most sam's pack in the most they can at the start, rather than getting upgraded in game due to the down time healing takes and the sheer expense.

I therefore like to give enough cash and time/bargins to allow cyber and magic character to "level up" at mostly the same time.

Chrome Upgrades were far less problematic in 4th Edition (though Grade Differences were still overpriced, 5th Does this well).

[Pendaric]

I saw that cyber cost much less in SR4 but the pay out problem seemed to still exist. Glad to hear that did actually solve some of the issue in game.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I saw that cyber cost much less in SR4 but the pay out problem seemed to still exist. Glad to hear that did actually solve some of the issue in game.

They did not - Prices jumped up again in 5th Edition (to just under 3rd Edition Prices), but the Grade costs came down. If they had kept 4th Editions 'Ware Prices and 5th Editions Grade Costs, it would have been almost perfect. Sadly, Payouts for 5th got stupid.

[Lionhearted]

I therefore like to give enough cash and time/bargins to allow cyber and magic character to "level up" at mostly the same time.

I've been looking into making karma more valueable for mundane characters (raising skill caps) and money more valueable for magicial characters (removing/lowering karma cost for certain things like learning new spells or binding foci, but increasing the cost)

[Glyph]

Cyberware and bioware are, really, the main way for non-hacker/rigger mundanes to be effective, giving bonuses to Attributes, dice pool bonuses to skills or damage soaking, and enhanced senses, turning normal metahumans into exceptional ones, and exceptional ones into superhuman ones. Obvious chrome is thematically appropriate for the game, where the player characters are the outliers on the bleeding edge of transhumanism. If you are going to limit starting augmentations, you should also 1) increase payouts so that upgrading 'ware in-game becomes plausible, and 2) similarly limit starting Magic to rating: 2 or 3.

[Blade]

That's one of the reason why Shadowrun definitely needs to branch into/acknowledge three different settings:

- Technothriller: Some basic implants might be widespread in the general population, but most implanted are considered freaks or at least a bit weird (like tattooed people twenty years ago)
- 80s Cyberpunk: Implants are common, but full replacements or exotic implants are still something only freaks will have.
- Post-cyberpunk: Most people have implants, and in a big city no one will bat an eye if someone has an obvious non-human appearance.

[Pendaric]

Definitely on post cyberpunk.

[Lionhearted]

Of those I'd say I would fit squarely in the 80s camp, though skipping the aesthetic ^^
Not saying that 80s in the future isnt a wonderful thing, but you might aswell go full camp at that point... Its hard enough to sell the whole elf and dragons idea and keeping the setting dystopic

[KCKitsune]

Sadly, Payouts for 5th got stupid.

You might as well as play Grand Theft Auto Seattle 2072 for all the extra money it will give you as compared to a Shadowrun, and a hell of a lot less bullets trying to meet your face.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You might as well as play Grand Theft Auto Seattle 2072 for all the extra money it will give you as compared to a Shadowrun, and a hell of a lot less bullets trying to meet your face.

Yep - Our home game makes it work, because we do not use the stupid payout schema given in SR5. Of course, Payouts in SR have always been wonky and in need of altering to fit the table played at, so that is really nothing new.

[Blade]

Once again, given the way the Shadow economy works, the money a group of runners can get by playing FTA Seattle 2072 is exactly the same as the one it will get by doing Shadowruns, and the risk will probably be the same in both cases.

But that doesn't mean I support the payouts for 5th. Actually I support a system where permanent augmentations (be they implants, better guns, better drones or even bigger piles of cash on hand) are bought with karma instead of nuyens. This way you there's only one currency for PC augmentations (better to keep the balance between awakened and mundanes), and nuyens can be spent only for single-use boosts and fluff spendings. And you can have runners equipped with the latest cyberware but who'll still need to take a new job because they need a drink, a lot of life insurance, vacation and a home in the country and all they have is a trenchcoat, a cyberarm and a gun.

[Neraph]

That's a really detailed GM-style response for why the GM wants a group to take actual jobs, but that isn't exactly supported by the costs and values in the books.

[ShadowDragon8685]

That's a really detailed GM-style response for why the GM wants a group to take actual jobs, but that isn't exactly supported by the costs and values in the books.

In fact, it's literally the exact opposite of the rules as supported by the rules.

Basically, GMs like him are trying to have it both ways: They're using the listed payouts in the books as a reason for paying you absurdly low prices like 2,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to hit an Ares research facility and steal a prototype next-gen laser weapon, but when you point out that you can make better than 2,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) by selling poorly-defended but expensive SUVs to a chop shop, suddenly they become masterful economists pointing out all the reasons why "it doesn't work that way."

That's the point at which you should begin negotiating with the hardback copy of the rulebook.

[Sengir]

In a world where your average well adjusted ork can get pulled over for "looking wrong"

Not wrong, different. At least basic cyberware (eyes, ears, datajacks) are supposed to be extremely common, so discriminating people simply based on the fact that they have any cyberware won't really float.

[Glyph]

In my opinion, the rules already have too many problematic areas that can make it all but impossible for various game options (augmented characters, awakened characters, trolls, changelings, etc.) to actually be able to plausibly function in the context of the rules and the game setting. Gamemasters don't need to make anything more stringent - they need to play up things like fractured databases, a glut of information, Johnsons willing to pay in 'ware upgrades, bribeable security officers, and anything else that is needed so that shadowrunners can function in the game.

Instead of saying "Well, with those extensive bodily modifications, they won't let you into that upscale establishment. I guess you have to sit out this part of the game," you could say "Okay, places like this, about half of the minor celebs and corporate execs will have a security detail. Your guy already has a bodyguard license as part of his fake SIN and fake licenses. So if you rent a tux and hover around the face, you'll blend in with all of the other thugs in ill-fitting suits."

Not everyone's game will match the default setting - that's fine, just be sure to let people know ahead of time if your setting has awakened characters as either indentured servants or lab rats, or if anything more than the most basic augmentations or a heavy pistol will get the SWAT team called out.

[hermit]

What is your opinion on the matter? Do you enforce stigma and restrictions on chrome? or other things, do you run a Hong kong campaign where getting your hands on a gun is close to impossible perhaps?

Sure, because making sure every cyberware-bearing character in a cyberpun game has no chance of participating is fun. It's about as fun as all the other fun additions SR5 added, such as being without meaningful defense against decker attacks without a decker of your own constantly in babysit mode (preventing the decker from doing anything meaningful), the ditching of tallying bioware and cyberware seperatly and adding the lower for the total essence cost, making augmentations more essence intensive, reintroducing ridiculous prices that, with official run payout rules mean it'll take next to forever to scrape enough money together to pay for any meaningful cyberware upgrade, and no more essence holes, meaning upgrading cyberware is practically impossible. Yeah, I can totally see the need to take cybered characters down a peg, because compared to mages and adepts, they are just getting showered with gifts in SR5.

In other words, wee I to play SR5, cyberware would require a small rulebook of my own in house rules, and I'd definitly not enforce the cyberware stigma - or that ridiculous fluff about cyberware requiring immunosuppressants (which would give any cybered character the weakened immune system quality), for that matter.

[Tias]

95% of Cyberware is either totally accepted or not even visible to the masses (and things like Wires can be turned on and off, so there are few telltales that they are there). Only the Obvious Stuff MAY cause issues, but often, not even then. Yes, again, there are some things that may twig, and people are different; but overall, Cyberware has been accepted for the last 50 years or so.

Well, Augmentation specifically mentions that visible ware nets you unwanted attention. Specifically, Hard Exit says that she "cannot count the number of times I've gotten extra attention for driving/walking/breathing while chromed".

[Medicineman]

It totally depends upon what Kind of 'Ware You're showing.
Its definitive Canon that Cybereyes and a Datajack (maybe also Cyberears) are common sight for more than 50 Years now in 2075
in Lower Lifestyles even an occasional Cyberarm or Cyberleg are a common sight .
Everything else ( Raptor Legs, a Chrome Skull or Balance Tail, unretracted Spurs f.E) may be reason for a Freak factor.
if visible / obvious !!

with an obvious Dance
Medicineman