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#1
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 ![]() |
Topic is balancing in Shadowrun.
What is good balancing? When is something overpowered and why? Does something as 'overpowered' exist when each player and NPC has the option to use it? How does a system profit from good balance? Why is balance necessary? What has traditionally or in a given edition been overpowered? When is something gimped or nerfed? What has traditionally been nerfed in Shadowrun? I am currently tweaking my own rule system and am interested in other points of views. Thanks in advance for your input. |
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#2
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 ![]() |
There are a lot of things in Shadowrun that, in my opinion, get unfairly designated as "unbalanced". Shadowrunners don't have levels, but instead can either choose to be able to do a great many things, or to do less things but do them more proficiently. The main things that enforce balance are limited resources (you can only do so many things before being spread too thin; conversely, if you focus too much on being super-awesome in one area, you will be overly limited in other areas), and opportunity costs - yes, you can have this cool thing, but it means you can't have that cool thing. Things can be unbalanced, in my opinion, in three different ways:
1) The character does not mesh with either the GM's guidelines or the tacitly expected power level. Sure, you were only making normal, rational decisions for your pistols adept: elf with soft-maxed Agility, muscle toner: 4 bought with the restricted gear quality, cybereyes with a smartlink, and 3 levels of improved ability in pistols (a base skill of 6 with a specialization in semi-automatics). His stats make sense for someone who is supposed to be inhumanly good with a pistol, he can do other things than just shoot, and he has a killer background. But... if the GM said the game is a low-powered game set in the Barrens, or if the other players consider a dice pool of 14 to be high-powered, your guy rolling his 21 dice to shoot things might be disruptive to the game. 2) Sometimes people go beyond normal min-maxing and try to exploit the poorly worded or ambiguous areas of the rules to break the game. The only real solution to this is a GM who puts his foot down. "No, you can't use geomancy to aspect the background count of your astral hazing. No, you can't put gel packs on each individual piece of PPP." 3) Shadowrun is fairly balanced, in an apples and oranges way, in that there are multiple ways in which you can be a powerful character. Something can be unbalanced, though, when it is blatantly superior to other options that do the same thing, or gives too much of a bonus for too little cost. Some of this is intentional - smartlinks were intended to be a game staple, magic and augmentations in general give a cheap, easy boost befitting the game's transhumanist themes, and FFBA and PPP were blatantly put in to give everyone a bit more armor. A few things are more problematic, though. The SURGE quality of Metagenetic Improvement: Attribute was superior to Exceptional Attribute, giving you an actual Attribute bonus point on top of raising your maximum - for the same cost. Actually, due to how SURGE worked, it only cost 10 points, balanced by 10 points of negative SURGE qualities which didn't count against your NQ cap. Empathy software was unbalanced because it gave a comparatively cheap, disproportionately large bonus - up to 6 dice, which is the equivalent of max-rated Kinesics and max-rated tailored pheromones. Things can be unbalanced the other way, costing more or doing less than something similar. Oni, for example, cost an extra 5 points compared to orks, even though the only difference between them and orks was that oni had a negative quality. |
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#3
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,930 Joined: 9-April 05 From: Scandinavian Union Member No.: 7,310 ![]() |
My favourite standpoint on balancing is: "When everything is overpowered, nothing is"
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#4
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 ![]() |
Interesting points.
However I was more thinking in ways like this: Conjuring or magic in general is overwpowered while (pure) adepts and technomancers are underpowered. Are costs of metatypes balanced? What about shapeshifters and the Infected? When are the 3 planes (physical, astral, matrix) balanced? Are they balanced right now? It not, what should one do, whith what goal? Do you agree or not? Why? Is there more? What is that? What should change? |
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#5
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
Interesting points. However I was more thinking in ways like this: Conjuring or magic in general is overwpowered while (pure) adepts and technomancers are underpowered. Are costs of metatypes balanced? What about shapeshifters and the Infected? When are the 3 planes (physical, astral, matrix) balanced? Are they balanced right now? It not, what should one do, whith what goal? Do you agree or not? Why? Is there more? What is that? What should change? The above statements are NOT a fact. They are Situational, at best. The Planes are equally important and get about the same amount of screen time in our games. I have been in situations where magic was irrelevant and the Mundane, Non-augmented character was King. I have also been in situations where you NEEDED to be a Mage or you were screwed. By the same token, I have seen the Technomancer come through where no one else had a chance. This can go on, yadda yadda yadda, etc. etc. etc. Balance tends to be an illusion that does not really matter. Shadowrun is good at providing you the tools to make the character you want, and the only thing that matters is the consensus at the table for the power level of your campaign. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As for AI's, Infected and Shapeshifters, we treat them as NPC's only, so who cares if they are balanced or not. They are not player options at our table. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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#6
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,088 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 ![]() |
Does something as 'overpowered' exist when each player and NPC has the option to use it? The problem is when things stop being an option and start being mandatory, because they are so blatantly OP that everybody who doesn't have it takes a back seat, or because they are so undercosted that not picking it up would be stupid. A good example would be MtG: Everybody has the option to play a given card, but when the Top 8 decks at a tournament all play the maximum allowed four copies of the same card, something is clearly amiss. You are supposed to build a deck of 60 cards, not 56 and four auto-includes. In RPGs it's analoguous, chargen is not supposed to start with ticking off things which are not really choices, before spreading the remaining points (or other resource) for some customization. |
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#7
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 ![]() |
The above statements are NOT a fact. They are Situational, at best. Sure, no facts at all. Just opinions and questions. However: There is always SOME situation where a given feature/ability/skill outshines all other. BUT this is worth nothing if this situation happens only ever 10 years in a given gaming environment. So my question about balancing is not about special situations but about the sum of all situations in an average gaming environment. I am quite sure balance DOES matter to a lot of people out there. Why play a character that is in 99% of the situations outclassed by all other in the group? But that's just my opinion. |
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#8
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 ![]() |
The biggest problem with Magic is not so much the power level, but:
1) No caps, when everything else in the game has a maximum. Even if the problem is one that will only come up in high-powered or extremely long-running games, Magic should still be consistent with the rest of the game world. 2) There are too many magical things that can only be countered by magic. Spirits, which are so difficult to affect with mundane weapons at high Force, are the main culprits here. With augmented adepts, I think it is the result of unintended consequences. They wanted adepts to be good at different things than street samurai. Unfortunately, this lets adepts take augmentations for the areas adepts are not as good at, getting the best of both worlds - getting muscle toner and synaptic boosters in lieu of the costlier adept powers used for improving Attributes or initiative, while taking things like killing hands, combat sense, or improved ability that are not available to the street samurai. Augmented adepts are also unbalanced in another way - often, adept powers and augmentations stack. The adept can get a reflex recorder, then add two levels of improved ability to it. Or get kinesics: 3 and tailored pheromones: 3. Or get critical strike and bone density augmentation. |
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#9
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
The biggest problem with Magic is not so much the power level, but: 1) No caps, when everything else in the game has a maximum. Even if the problem is one that will only come up in high-powered or extremely long-running games, Magic should still be consistent with the rest of the game world. 2) There are too many magical things that can only be countered by magic. Spirits, which are so difficult to affect with mundane weapons at high Force, are the main culprits here. With augmented adepts, I think it is the result of unintended consequences. They wanted adepts to be good at different things than street samurai. Unfortunately, this lets adepts take augmentations for the areas adepts are not as good at, getting the best of both worlds - getting muscle toner and synaptic boosters in lieu of the costlier adept powers used for improving Attributes or initiative, while taking things like killing hands, combat sense, or improved ability that are not available to the street samurai. Augmented adepts are also unbalanced in another way - often, adept powers and augmentations stack. The adept can get a reflex recorder, then add two levels of improved ability to it. Or get kinesics: 3 and tailored pheromones: 3. Or get critical strike and bone density augmentation. Uhh... 1) If you have the HUNDREDS of karma to raise your Magic from 6 to 10, then there's other things going on also. Remember, it's an expensive Initiation that preceeds a prohibitive Stat increase. And raising just your Magic rating means you're not doing other things like increasing skills and learning new spells. 2) It's like people completely forget about elemental effects. A SnS round is the perfect counter to nearly all spirits, up to Force 10. A F6 spirit only requires 1 net success to deal damage to with a SnS round. Magic is Shadowrun's version of sharks. Everyone thinks they are far more dangerous than they are. You're more likely to die to a carcrash or explosion in Shadowrun than a high force spirit or mage. EDIT: Edited for further arguments. 1) You admit yourself this is only an issue in long-running campaigns. How is Magic supposed to be "consistent with the rest of the game world" when the rest of that world isn't exactly consistent either. Ex: Troll body versus Human body. There's a massive difference between a 6 and a 15, you know. In a world where a hacker human is tossing 10 dice to reduce damage and a troll is slinging 23, I don't think the unlikely situation where someone gets their Magic to an 8 is really an issue. 2) Further weapons that should be available by the time you're facing high Force spirits: Sniper rifle with APDS rounds, assault rifle with APDS.... hell, any firearm with ADPS. Lasers. Thunderstruch Gauss. Ramming them with a car. Grenades. Technically, toxins still work, so even a Super Squirt with Pepper Punch can take out a moderately-Forced spirit completely by RAW and still be street legal. Don't get upset that something appears powerful when the real issue at hand is your inability to cope with it. |
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#10
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,973 Joined: 4-June 10 Member No.: 18,659 ![]() |
My favourite standpoint on balancing is: "When everything is overpowered, nothing is" This leads to just playing Exalted. That's a bad road, man. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Uhh... 1) If you have the HUNDREDS of karma to raise your Magic from 6 to 10, then there's other things going on also. Remember, it's an expensive Initiation that preceeds a prohibitive Stat increase. And raising just your Magic rating means you're not doing other things like increasing skills and learning new spells. 2) It's like people completely forget about elemental effects. A SnS round is the perfect counter to nearly all spirits, up to Force 10. A F6 spirit only requires 1 net success to deal damage to with a SnS round. Magic is Shadowrun's version of sharks. Everyone thinks they are far more dangerous than they are. You're more likely to die to a carcrash or explosion in Shadowrun than a high force spirit or mage. EDIT: Edited for further arguments. 1) You admit yourself this is only an issue in long-running campaigns. How is Magic supposed to be "consistent with the rest of the game world" when the rest of that world isn't exactly consistent either. Ex: Troll body versus Human body. There's a massive difference between a 6 and a 15, you know. In a world where a hacker human is tossing 10 dice to reduce damage and a troll is slinging 23, I don't think the unlikely situation where someone gets their Magic to an 8 is really an issue. 2) Further weapons that should be available by the time you're facing high Force spirits: Sniper rifle with APDS rounds, assault rifle with APDS.... hell, any firearm with ADPS. Lasers. Thunderstruch Gauss. Ramming them with a car. Grenades. Technically, toxins still work, so even a Super Squirt with Pepper Punch can take out a moderately-Forced spirit completely by RAW and still be street legal. Don't get upset that something appears powerful when the real issue at hand is your inability to cope with it. Stick and shock does not do what you think it does in 5e. It is not a magical effect, and Immunity To Normal Weapons is specifically only bypassed by magical effects. Just because it is elemental typed damage does not make it elemental magic. QUOTE ("SR5") IMMUNITY Type: P Action: Auto Range: Self Duration: Always A critter with Immunity has an enhanced resistance to a certain type of attack or affliction. Effectively, the critter has a Hardened Armor rating equal to twice its Essence against that particular kind of damage (see Hardened Armor, p. 397). This means that if the modified Damage Value of the attack does not exceed the Immunity’s rating, then the attack automatically does no damage. If the modified DV exceeds the Immunity rating, perform a Damage Resistance test as normal, adding the Immunity rating to the dice pool for this test. Additionally, half (rounded up) of the Immunity rating counts as automatic hits on this test. Some Immunities function slightly differently, because the attack they protect against doesn’t do damage, per se. Immunity to Age: Some things don’t get old. Literally. Beings with this Immunity neither age nor suffer the effects of aging. Immunity to Normal Weapons: This applies to all attacks that are not magical in nature; weapon foci, spells, and adept or critter powers function normally. If the critter also has the Allergy weakness, then the Immunity does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen. HARDENED ARMOR Type: P Action: Auto Range: Self Duration: Always There’s Armor, and then there’s Armor. This is the latter. This power provides its rating in Armor, and functions just like the Armor power. It differs from the Armor power as follows. If the modified Damage Value of an attack is less than the Hardened Armor rating (modified by AP), the attack does no damage. Don’t make a Damage Resistance test for the critter; it might not even notice the attack was made in the first place. If the modified Damage Value of an attack is greater than the Hardened Armor rating (modified by AP), then perform a Damage Resistance test for the critter as normal. Additionally, half of the Hardened Armor rating (modified by AP, rounded up) counts as automatic extra hits on this test. So yes, S&S's silly -5 AP rating is nice, even though it replaces the gun's rather than stacking, but it's not going to auto-bypass the inherent hardened armor of spirits too far into any campaign. Even for the smaller ones. with Force/2 automatic successes on the damage resistance test the -2S damage code on that Stick-N-Shock is going to make it very, very hard to be effective. They aren't the 'so obviously great that you're a fool not to use them' cheeseballs they were in 4e. As a GM, I'd never let the squirt work, either. Unless you're hitting a spirit with something they have a weakness to inherently, like hosing down a fire elemental, they're not biological creatures even when manifest. Thus chemical irritants intended to interfere with carbon-based biologicals aren't going to do anything useful to them. |
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#11
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 ![]() |
To add something to the discussion:
Unbalanced: - Edge. Hackers basically run on Edge. As long as you have Edge, everything is a cakewalk, if its out, you have a serious problem. - Full defense. Does anybody ever hit anybody else if full defense is used? How long do you combats last? - Modifiers. The maximum number you seem to get from any one source is -4. That really does not interest anybody who rolls 14+ dice (aka Shadowrunners). Healing in a quagmire? Shooting at extreme range? Perceiving something without IR or LowLight in near darkness? Cakewalk! Overpowered: - Mages (Does anybody EVER get drain in 5E? 4th as well. Forgot about earlier ones) - Spirits (A starting Mage can summon Force 6 Spirits, that are the combat equivalent of a whole streetsam all day. Spirits can now even be Task Spirits and could always have innate spells. Basically a Mage can do everything by himself now). If he wants fun, he buys a summoning focus and specializes in a spirit class and summons force 10 spirits. If drain is too high he tosses in some edge if needed. And there is Spirit-Summoner Link. You cant even take it down silently with a one-shot. - Astral Space for free (at least you cant hear in Astral space since 4th). Kills all physical sneaking attempts. - Grenades, although some problems have been fixed in 5e. No idea why grenades are so lethal in Shadowrun, especially against armor. - Neurostun/Narcojet (Insane! Why is not everybody using it all the time? In any edition.) - SnS in 4th, Gel in any edition before 5th Underpowered: - Technomancers (do I need to say more?) - Shapeshifters (self evident) - Pure physical adepts, although this got much better in 4th and 5th - Dual Natured (what do ghouls do against mages flying in astral space and controll thoughting/stunbolting them to oblivion? Want some money, go ghoul hunting) - Cyberdecks (want to hack? better be rich! Although they shoehorned some cheap hacking capabilities in with these module things) |
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#12
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
I disagree, almost wholesale.
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#13
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 ![]() |
I disagree, almost wholesale. Well, your disagreement in itself is only a small piece of information. Would you elaborate? Specifics: Why do you not agree with a given point? Do you have other points? Do you think Shadowrun is balanced to a satisfactory degree in a sense that all options you have at character creation and during gameplay are, averaged over all gaming situations, equal or correctly prized (opportunity cost, karma, nuyen, ...)? Are you more narrativist, simulationsit or gamist? (If you could divide 10 points on the 3 game styles how would you classify yourself?) |
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#14
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 702 Joined: 21-August 08 From: France Member No.: 16,265 ![]() |
Topic is balancing in Shadowrun. What is good balancing? When is something overpowered and why? Does something as 'overpowered' exist when each player and NPC has the option to use it? How does a system profit from good balance? Why is balance necessary? What has traditionally or in a given edition been overpowered? When is something gimped or nerfed? What has traditionally been nerfed in Shadowrun? I am currently tweaking my own rule system and am interested in other points of views. Thanks in advance for your input. To me, it's perfectly valid to create a character weaker than the rest of the table. This has nothing to do with the gamebalance. But that should be voluntary. About Overpowerness and gamebalance, I'd say there are 3 topics: > Gamebalance revolves around the balance of archetypes. Every profile should give you the same average level of strengthes and weaknesses. Those should be mesured around the field covered by your speciality, your strength in this field and the overall all-aroundness of the profil. To give a simple exemple: if a cybered samourai grants you a high fighting prowess but remains limited in his options of developpement while an adept gives you more long-term strength but a weaker start, or if an adept simply grants a bit more all-aroundness, that can be seen as ok. Now, if you're mage is a high burst character and jack-of-all-trades, he would though needs very strong weaknesses to compensate his power and all aroundness. Maybe a low access to his ressources (meaning that the drain should be high). Or a strong counter effect (background counts encountered often enough to be a drawback). If you had to spend all your character creation ressources to profil that would be an elite driver, the field would be too narrow (which is not SR's case because the rigger has a bigger field than only driving). > Overpowerness: this is when one option is simply too strong in comparison to other options It's when a decker is just plain and simple better as a technomancer. It's when a spell deals same damage as another one but doesn't have the restrictions the other one has. it's a cyberlimb that grants a few dump-stat bonuses when some gives Initiative Passes. > The character creation flaw: this is when not having min-maxed at character generation is hard to erase during the game. Like you did build an all arounder. Your munchkin friend maxed out his attributes using the 1:1 character generation system. While you struggle to raise up your stats, he simply raises up his very low attributes and get way better than you. |
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#15
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 587 Joined: 27-January 07 From: United States Member No.: 10,812 ![]() |
Are costs of metatypes balanced? Not much comment on this one yet. Yes metatypes are balanced, but they are balanced assuming all stats have equal value (which is to say poorly). It is also worth noting that only humans and elves have stat bonuses without having a penalty. Humans can be partially excused for that because they are also the only metatype without special vision. Strength is useful almost exclusively for melee combat. Agility is useful for stealth (in a stealth game) and every physical combat action, including melee. With a monowhip, you can even ignore strength. Agility is clearly more useful, but is valued equally to strength for balancing. Having a skill group for each stat would at least mean every stat has a use for one part of the game, and having one non-skill non-combat use (for example, memory tests for mental stats) keeps them interesting for everyone. Limits in SR5 look like they were an attempt at improving this, but...that has been discussed heavily elsewhere. Money is also difficult to balance the way the setting intends. Runners who have to fight to pay for their next meal getting hundreds of thousands of nuyen in equipment doesn't make sense if they're paid in cash. Fluff says they also get paid in stocks, favors, equipment, and corp script, but then provides no rules or guidelines for such payments or converting one to the other. Poor balance with money means karma-based characters improve at a different (higher or lower, depending on the campaign) rate than money-based characters. Maybe the lesson here is if you intend something to be a balancing factor, make and test rules for it? Also, choice and balance seem to be frequently at odds with each other. The easiest way to balance everything is to make everything equal, but that's boring. Shadowrun has balance issues mostly because it offers a huge number of options. There are a lot of things to be good or bad at, and several ways to be good or bad at them (skills, stats, equipment, magic, etc.). |
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#16
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,973 Joined: 4-June 10 Member No.: 18,659 ![]() |
Also, a vast amount of the balance depends on your GM knowing the rules and setting better than the players. If they just handwave something like background count or Noise, it hugely throws the balance.
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#17
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
Well, your disagreement in itself is only a small piece of information. Would you elaborate? Specifics: Why do you not agree with a given point? Do you have other points? Do you think Shadowrun is balanced to a satisfactory degree in a sense that all options you have at character creation and during gameplay are, averaged over all gaming situations, equal or correctly prized (opportunity cost, karma, nuyen, ...)? Are you more narrativist, simulationsit or gamist? (If you could divide 10 points on the 3 game styles how would you classify yourself?) I could point-by-point counter every argument you made. I don't think I'm suited for a discussion in here since I do not really see overbalanced options. All I see are varying degrees of optimization. I mean, for less than the 50 BP in just cash you can walk away with 200+ armor - the real questions are how much do you want and how much are you willing to get. Not all character options are applicable for all character types, but each quality has its own merits and can work for specific characters. "Game balance" is not so much a mechanical difference as it is a spoken or unspoken agreement by all parties involved to what they are trying to get out of playing the game. It has as much to do with playing a Pink Mohawk vs. Mirror Shades character as it does choosing an Ares Alpha over an AK-97. |
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#18
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 ![]() |
@Iduno:
Good points. However: An option is only an option of another option is not completely or in practice completely better than another option. Is Shadowrun still full of options under this definition? @binarywraith: Sure. Also worth mentioning in this department are not only the crunch-setting rules you mentioned, but also the setting fluff. A large portion of the drawbacks of a Troll depends on how the GM empasizes the typical Troll problems (Trolls are just obvious at heck and kill most social sneaking attempts because they do not fit socially for most roles). @Neraph: Well, if you think everything is balanced and if not can be straightened out by player consensus, this discussion is not for you. However: If a character is, by making a style choice, like playing a certain character type, constantly feeling that he is not contributing anything, because another character is better than he is in practically all respects, he might come to the conclusion that more balance is needed. Shadowrun is much more gamistic and simulationistic than other RPGs. And the questions: "Can I contribute? Can I shine in my specialty?" are not unimportant and mostly depend on balance. Of course you can agree to "not do this and that although I could to make the guy next to me happy" but that is fixing problems the rules should fix for you. |
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#19
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 243 Joined: 15-July 12 From: Everywhere that's in the middle of nowhere. Member No.: 53,043 ![]() |
@Iduno: Good points. However: An option is only an option of another option is not completely or in practice completely better than another option. Is Shadowrun still full of options under this definition? @binarywraith: Sure. Also worth mentioning in this department are not only the crunch-setting rules you mentioned, but also the setting fluff. A large portion of the drawbacks of a Troll depends on how the GM empasizes the typical Troll problems (Trolls are just obvious at heck and kill most social sneaking attempts because they do not fit socially for most roles). @Neraph: Well, if you think everything is balanced and if not can be straightened out by player consensus, this discussion is not for you. However: If a character is, by making a style choice, like playing a certain character type, constantly feeling that he is not contributing anything, because another character is better than he is in practically all respects, he might come to the conclusion that more balance is needed. Shadowrun is much more gamistic and simulationistic than other RPGs. And the questions: "Can I contribute? Can I shine in my specialty?" are not unimportant and mostly depend on balance. Of course you can agree to "not do this and that although I could to make the guy next to me happy" but that is fixing problems the rules should fix for you. I'm with Neraph on most points but one thing I have my 2¢ out as well. Some players are rules lawyers as are some Game Masters (I have a tenancy toward this for better or worst as player and as GM, in my/party favor or against it) but as a GM my job is to make sure my players are having fun (I will suspend rule for the sake of fun or story and that doesn't mean I'm not willing to kill characters as I intentionally killed 2 in 1 run for a stupid decision they made 6 runs prior). I had players have fun by slipping rules past me, other had fun by making plots I didn't know about (I tend to nix these actions only if they have issues with the story board and I let the players know this), but when there is a character/player that is feeling useless; it's my job as a GM to see why. Sometimes the character was built very poorly like being built for too specific of situations or built to cover too many situation but they are all covered by other characters with a better skill tends to be the 2 I see the most (Over specialize = you're dead; Under specialize = you're dead). These are usually seen in new players. This leads me to my next points: 1) Why a new player was building a character without talking to the GM in the first place. 2) Why isn't the GM reviewing all the characters to avoid some of these situations 3) why isn't the GM setting up his scenarios to give all the players a chance at something (May not happen every run but the player should have something and as close to evenly distributed as possible) If you can't tell I'm of the mindset that the GM is in charge of the game with fun for everyone (including the GM) being the rule of the day. If a player isn't having fun then the GM is failing. you may have that troll that can throw 23 dice for his check for body but how min of the security guards are shooting at him 2 or 3 minimum S/He's a fucking troll with one hand ready to crush your head and a panther cannon in the other hand ready to blow your head off... Big and looks intimidating [maybe he's the decker though and there's the possibility that he could hit the broad side of the barn from the inside] but the small person behind him is the real threat because their shooting skill is so high they can fire 1 bullet and take 2 heads off but can be killed by a damn BB. Balance is a relative term. The characters have to be compared to the rest of the characters in the party and the only time there is a lack of balance is if a character doesn't have his/her place and/or the GM is ignoring them. There are game systems that I wont play because I don't see much balance. |
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#20
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 ![]() |
Also, choice and balance seem to be frequently at odds with each other. The easiest way to balance everything is to make everything equal, but that's boring. Shadowrun has balance issues mostly because it offers a huge number of options. There are a lot of things to be good or bad at, and several ways to be good or bad at them (skills, stats, equipment, magic, etc.). This is a key problem when there is a game with a glut of options such as Shadowrun. My attitude is, if there are multiple ways of doing something, it is fine if some of those ways are suboptimal, as long as there is more than one good way of doing something, and as long as one way is not blatantly superior to the others. Also, while some suboptimal choices are fine, it can be unbalanced if making a choice feels like you are getting dinged a tax for it (like my example of the oni cost). Shadowrun has so many ways to optimize, even within roles such as face or combat specialist, that there are really only a few egregious examples that stand out, and I talked about most of them. I think while there are some overpowered options out there, most game balance problems come from groups where expectations about the power level are not discussed beforehand. It is so easy to make a powerful character, and so easy to make a weak one. Even disparate power levels don't have to result in an unbalanced game. You can have a detective who does a bit of face, a bit of stealth, and a bit of bang-bang hanging out with a troll changeling augmented death machine ex-pit fighter turned bodyguard. As long as they each have something to do, and get some spotlight time, and get along together, it should be fine. That's another way that the GM can affect the game's power level - what things are important (or not), which things get glossed over, which modifiers are sacrificed for game speed. Depending on the game, things like information gathering, social skills, sneaking, and combat can become more "important" to a game. In a way, this can balance itself out, as the group makes new characters with this meta-knowledge in mind. The GM going over his expectations before the campaign starts is a better way, though. |
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#21
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,598 Joined: 24-May 03 Member No.: 4,629 ![]() |
My quick-n-dirty is this:
If something's an auto-pick, "EVeryone takes X. It's so dang good!" then it's probably not balanced. You need to nerf the stuff that's too good for the price while boosting teh stuff that no one takes, until things equal out. (SR5's armor situation, for instance, needs fixing. Right now, there's pretty much one armor ... Armored Jacket if you only have the core book, or Sleeping Tiger otherwise. That's not good.) |
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#22
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,973 Joined: 4-June 10 Member No.: 18,659 ![]() |
Honestly, I only adjust at the table.
'x is overpowered, everyone takes x!' is generally an Internet Rules Theory argument more than what my players bring to the table. I only bother to adjust things if someone at the table wants to do a thing and finds it doesn't work mechanically the way it should. I run with pretty concept-heavy gamers, though, so they're more likely to take what fits their character's look and style than what's mechanically best. |
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#23
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
Honestly, I only adjust at the table. 'x is overpowered, everyone takes x!' is generally an Internet Rules Theory argument more than what my players bring to the table. I only bother to adjust things if someone at the table wants to do a thing and finds it doesn't work mechanically the way it should. I run with pretty concept-heavy gamers, though, so they're more likely to take what fits their character's look and style than what's mechanically best. Thank you. This is exactly what I was trying to say also. |
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#24
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
(SR5's armor situation, for instance, needs fixing. Right now, there's pretty much one armor ... Armored Jacket if you only have the core book, or Sleeping Tiger otherwise. That's not good.) See, this I do not agree with. Armored Jacket is WAY TOO OBVIOUS (most of the time), and is only good when you want to be obvious. I prefer the various Business Suits (may have to look up Sleeping Tiger, have no idea what that is), of various qualities. They provide pretty decent Protection and provide the ability to blend in, which is King in my opinion. Yes, when you wanna go loud, the Armored Jacket is nice (assuming you cannot get hold of Security or Military grade armors). |
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#25
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
Honestly, I only adjust at the table. 'x is overpowered, everyone takes x!' is generally an Internet Rules Theory argument more than what my players bring to the table. I only bother to adjust things if someone at the table wants to do a thing and finds it doesn't work mechanically the way it should. I run with pretty concept-heavy gamers, though, so they're more likely to take what fits their character's look and style than what's mechanically best. Agreed, I think we would fall into this category as well. Take what fits, not what is mechanically superior. |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 29th May 2025 - 11:16 AM |
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