Why play a Street Samurai?, Are any mundane builds comparable to Magic/Resonance builds? Options

[2XS]

It seems like magical and resonance characters can do pretty much everything a mundane can do, but better. Am I missing something?

Maybe I should've named this thread "why *wouldn't* you play a mage/tm?"

The issue I'm having revolves around my family joining me for a game. My son is playing a TM, my daughter is playing a Mage, and my wife is going with a Face sort of concept. I don't want to run another TM or Mage, because it would take away from my kids' characters, but I don't really know how to play a mundane, either. Everything I see makes it seem like Mages and TMs are just flat out better.

What can I do?

[bannockburn]

What can I do?

You could stop thinking about efficiency and start thinking what would be fun for you.

The gap isn't that wide in practice (even in SR5), and papersamuraiing doesn't really help.

To answer your thread question:
If you would enjoy playing someone with chrome and / or a street code of honor, the samurai is for you. If not, look elsewhere.

[Serbitar]

Maybe I should've named this thread "why *wouldn't* you play a mage/tm?"

Because you want to play a Sam.

A Sam still is OK in combat compared to a mage (as long as he doesnt summon Spirits, or sustains a lot of spells using sustaining foci, or uses mass control thoughts, then a mage is much better).
The mage however is better at anything else, except hacking.

[binarywraith]

If you're looking for Build Efficiency ™, just make an adept and take a few augs for the stuff that's cheaper as chrome than via PP.

If you're trying to make a character, make whatever you think would be fun to play.

If your table makes whatever you want to play not worth playing because they're monofocused on charop, you probably aren't going to have fun at that table, and may need to find another game. In either case have a long chat with your GM and other players and get a feel for everyone's expectations.

[Lionhearted]

Because razorgirl or gillette sounds so much better than psysad?

[Neraph]

(4th Ed) I actually just finished making a street sam last night for an upcoming game. My dude is a face, driver, drone support, matrix support, centralized TacNet, and he's got 14-ish dice for melee and ranged combat in addition to 7 Bod and 15/12 armor.

Oh, and because of the Calling rules and the fact that he has Arcana, he can fit in some limited astral support as well.

EDIT: Rating 2 MBW; R4 Cybereyes; R3 Cyberears; R2 Muscle Toner; R1 Muscle Aug; Cyber Forearm with datajack, spur, gyro stabalization. He can fire an Ares Alpha in burst both actions and not take recoil.

[KCKitsune]

It seems like magical and resonance characters can do pretty much everything a mundane can do, but better. Am I missing something?

Maybe I should've named this thread "why *wouldn't* you play a mage/tm?"

The issue I'm having revolves around my family joining me for a game. My son is playing a TM, my daughter is playing a Mage, and my wife is going with a Face sort of concept. I don't want to run another TM or Mage, because it would take away from my kids' characters, but I don't really know how to play a mundane, either. Everything I see makes it seem like Mages and TMs are just flat out better.

What can I do?

2XS, a properly built Sammy can be a melee combat / gun bunny / hacker / face / all-skills-man* in one person who's abilities are NOT affected by background count. It's the one reason I have a synaptic booster in my combat mage rather than using a sustaining foci. I know when crap hits the fan, I can count on my booster to give me the extra initiative passes that I need to survive. Now a Sammy can forget about the booster and start rocking Move By Wire. The level of boost of MBW is insane... and you get free skillwires on top of it

* == you need skillwires to pull this last one off.

[Beta]

Sure, a mage is powerful. If you are the only player, I’d say a mage is a good choice. A second mage is also going to be powerful, and there are some things where working together can be really effective. But, on the other hand, a lot of what mages are good at is empowering and enabling other characters, and mages would really rather put all their karma into improving and broadening their magic skills, not secondary competencies. And from experience, a melee troll or a gun-nut can put down raw damage that will impress even a mage, samurai can soak damage that would devastate a mage, and the combination of magic and someone with good infiltration skills is amazing for getting into places.

I guess what I’m saying is think not so much raw power as synergy. Especially when playing with family, where you might especially enjoy helping others’ characters shine.

[BlackJaw]

There are still a variety of abilities that only Ware does well. Skillwires for a Jack of All Trades or Pretender character are especially interesting to me, and recent books have provided us with (in 5th) with a subscription system for being able to download a skill or language as needed. (But only one at a time.)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There are still a variety of abilities that only Ware does well. Skillwires for a Jack of All Trades or Pretender character are especially interesting to me, and recent books have provided us with (in 5th) with a subscription system for being able to download a skill or language as needed. (But only one at a time.)

They had Skillsoft Subscriptions in 4th Edition, too, located in the back of Unwired if I remember correctly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Serbitar]

There are still a variety of abilities that only Ware does well. Skillwires for a Jack of All Trades or Pretender character are especially interesting to me, and recent books have provided us with (in 5th) with a subscription system for being able to download a skill or language as needed. (But only one at a time.)

There are a number of spells that make anything a mundane does superfluous.

Examples:

Interrogation -> Mind Probe
Persuasion,deception -> Influence/Control Thoughts
Stealth -> Invisibility, Silence
Climbing, Jumpjng, Personal Transportation -> Levitation
Medics -> Heal
Disguise -> Physical Mask
Perception, Drone Exploration -> Clairvoyance
Finding somebody -> Search
not available to mundanes, maybe holo projectors -> illusions
not availabe -> shapechange
smoke grenades -> smoke spell
lots of cyberware -> increased reaction


some spells are bad:
armor, direct combat, barriers, duration of control thoughts, but the vast majority is much better than anything mundanes will ever do


Combat:
Spirits (nothing comes close, keep summoning level 6 fire elementals until the opposition is dead, or toss in other spirits with energy aura if they start to bring water, do so from the couch in your home)

Exploration:
Astral Space

Furthermore: Only magic can counter magic, but magic can also counter physical

The most effective 1 man runner team is a mage.
The most effective 2 man runner team is a mage and a hacker
The most effective 3 man runner team are 2 mages and a hacker
Only at 4 man runner teams, other roles start to make sense if you are about effectivity alone.

[Neraph]

There are a number of spells that make anything a mundane does superfluous.
(truncated)
Furthermore: Only magic can counter magic, but magic can also counter physical

The most effective 1 man runner team is a mage.
The most effective 2 man runner team is a mage and a hacker
The most effective 3 man runner team are 2 mages and a hacker
Only at 4 man runner teams, other roles start to make sense if you are about effectivity alone.

Inaccurate on many, many points. Personal experience and opinion does not equal fact. I mean, I'm the first one who'll espouse how powerful magic is in the setting - after all, I wrote a guide showing how powerful it truly was - but I've also explored the mundane and the Matrix and both are equally powerful. What matters are the circumstances. For example, each of those spells you listed would be significantly less effective versus AIs, while in BC, or against gnomes/fomori, or against spirits/other summoners.

As for "magic countering magic" - SnS rounds, ramming vehicles, grenades, and APDS tend to deal with most things magical. I have yet to see a mage that doesn't die when you shoot him enough, and I have yet to see a spirit that won't succumb to a gun-bunny who shoots it enough times. I mean, hell, my brother solo'd a F8 or F10 (I forget, it was years ago) Beast Spirit and the initiated mage who summoned it, and he was a fairly nondescript elven gillette.

[Beta]

I do agree that mage types have grown in power and flexibility massively over the editions. I played back in 1st, and one of the two characters I played was a shaman. I came back in 5th to run a game which has a shaman, and it is completely different.

Having said that, I've seen some of the limits of the shaman -- in part related to the fact that while a mage CAN be good at almost anything, none actually ARE good at everything, choices have to be made. But the point about a 2nd mage being the first choice of a third character ... I can see that argument.

Although as always, interesting, fun, characters >> raw power, IMO.

[Serbitar]

Inaccurate on many, many points. Personal experience and opinion does not equal fact. I mean, I'm the first one who'll espouse how powerful magic is in the setting - after all, I wrote a guide showing how powerful it truly was - but I've also explored the mundane and the Matrix and both are equally powerful. What matters are the circumstances. For example, each of those spells you listed would be significantly less effective versus AIs, while in BC, or against gnomes/fomori, or against spirits/other summoners.

As for "magic countering magic" - SnS rounds, ramming vehicles, grenades, and APDS tend to deal with most things magical. I have yet to see a mage that doesn't die when you shoot him enough, and I have yet to see a spirit that won't succumb to a gun-bunny who shoots it enough times. I mean, hell, my brother solo'd a F8 or F10 (I forget, it was years ago) Beast Spirit and the initiated mage who summoned it, and he was a fairly nondescript elven gillette.

Please stop bringing up special cases to counter day to day realities.

Or are

AIs, while in BC, or against gnomes/fomori

what your average runs consist of?

Furthermore, there is no way anybody mundane can even remotely cope with a flood of force 6 spirits or even a single force 10 spirit.
If you think otherwise please post the math.

I start to feel insulted by your "bullets are not deadly - I know a case where somebody dodged one once" logic.

[Serbitar]

Although as always, interesting, fun, characters >> raw power, IMO.

Quoted for truth.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Please stop bringing up special cases to counter day to day realities.

Or are

what your average runs consist of?

Furthermore, there is no way anybody mundane can even remotely cope with a flood of force 6 spirits or even a single force 10 spirit.
If you think otherwise please post the math.

I start to feel insulted by your "bullets are not deadly - I know a case where somebody dodged one once" logic.

Background Count, and Wards, are a common occurrence in our games. And why, do you ask? Because they are one of the ways to balance out magic. You should routinely hit (in SR4A) Background counts of 1 to 2 on a fairly regular basis, and Wards even more often. Even in SR5 it is pretty damned common in our games, so I do not see why you think it should be rare. What is your basis for this position?

Having played the game since its inception, I can confidently say that there are counters to almost anything. I play a Non-Augmented, Non-Emergent, Non-Awakened Mercenary from time to time (SR4A), and he is totally awesome, even against mages and spirits. Are mages more powerful in some circumstances? Sure, but not all Circumstances. Same goes with Hackers as well.

It sounds like your table has different experiences, but please do not assume that all tables are identical to yours. Maybe you allow unrestricted summoning of spirits with no consequence? Maybe Magic is an I-Win button for your mages, but from my experience, I can say that it is definitely not. I know others that would say the same thing. No one is arguing that magic is not powerful, but then, so is a Dronomancer with good drones and a Sam with good equipment. It is all situational.

[Serbitar]

I agree on your assessment of wards. They are the only thing keeping mages in check. Background count not so much, as the effects of often occurring bc is small.

And yes there is a counter for everything, (except horde of force 6 fire spirits), but that's not the point.

From a player perspective a mage does most of the things better than the mundane. It is irrelevant that what he does can in principle be countered. The mundane stuff can also be countered and is on average much less effective.

You can't deny that a mage with the spells given above make lots of character concepts just bystanders,that hope a ward will pop up so they can contribute.

BTW at our table summoning was nerfed to take force minutes and only one bound and one unbound spirit per summoner. And still my mundane players complain about spirits being too strong. Did you do the math of a force 8 fire elemental in 5th edition lately? What do mundanes do against that? Carry water? Let alone against a number of force 6 fire elementals every complex action you get with standard rules out of the air no way to detect, avoid, or prevent with any security measures except shooting the mage outright before.

[2XS]

I think the root of my anxiety is that I was planning on playing a Dronomancer and gave it up so my son wouldn't feel gimped in meat-space. So now I'm looking for another niche to fill, when I was all excited about how awesome my dronomancer was going to be.

It's difficult for me to get excited about a street samurai when I keep comparing him and the cost of his chrome to the cost and effectiveness of my dronomancer's sprite-enhanced drones.

Thoughts?

[Neraph]

Please stop bringing up special cases to counter day to day realities.

Or are
"a flood of force 6 spirits or even a single force 10 spirit."
what your average runs consist of?

Take your own medicine before you prescribe it for me.

Furthermore, there is no way anybody mundane can even remotely cope with a flood of force 6 spirits or even a single force 10 spirit.
If you think otherwise please post the math.

Fair enough.

Assuming 4 dice are 1 success, for the sake of averages.
F6 Spirit has, on average:
6 Reaction = 1.5 successes.
ItNW 6. You need a DV of greater than 12 or some way to mitigate that otherwise they ignore the attack.
Body 6, plus unmitigated Armor from above for soaking damage.

To attack this we need
Agi 7
Weapon Skill (Specialized) 7
Smartlink 2
TacNet 2
Total of 18 = 4.5 successes.

These stats are easily achievable. I built an ork sammy/face/driver/rigger yesterday who just happens to have these stats - they aren't special.

That turns into 3 net successes for a basic taser, turning that into a 9 DV, -1/2 AP attack. -1/2 AP means it bypasses ItNW, leaving the spirit with 6 armor and 6 body to soak 9S(e) damage. That averages to 3 successes, droping it from 9S to 6S, more than filling up half it's Stun track. By some readings of RAW the spirit is still subject to the electricity's secondary effects. Assuming that's true, then the Spirit then needs to do a Bod + Wil (3) Test or fall unconscious, immediately disrupting. With its 12 dice it should be able to pass.

If you do not believe it's subject to that rule, or if it does not disrupt from electricity, then you simply shoot it again. It will end up with (on average) another 6S damage, placing its total at 12 while its Stun track only goes up to 11. Disrupted spirit with easily achievable stats and using only a taser or any other weapon loaded with SnS rounds.

F10? Ok.
10 Rea = 2.5 successes.
ItNW 10. Adjusted damage value greater than adjusted 20 armor.
Bod 10 plus unmodified armor from above.

This will require a little more specificity, but still achievable within 400 BP, and certainly achievable afterwards.

Agi 9
Weapon skill (Specialised) 8
+1 Reflex Recorder
+2 Smartlink
+4 TacNet
Total of 24 = 6 successes.

That's 4 net successes, leaving you just shy of being able to pull the same maneuver with a taser/SnS. But what of other weapons? At my table, sniper rifles are really admired weapons. A Barett Model 121 loaded with APDS rounds (acquired easily enough after game start) is tossing 9P with -8 AP. Using that we have 13P versus a modified armor of 12, which gets through. That's 22 dice (avg 5.5) to reduce 13P, which results in 8P - spirit is still up. But yeah, that's one Simple Action. Next is another round and the spirit pops.

Both above instances are without Edge being spent on either side. It gets easier if your players spend Edge and the spirit doesn't, obviously. Hell, with Edge you can pop a F10 spirit with a taser.

But I didn't only mention firearms. There's also hitting the big scary spirit with a car, a perfectly rational response. If you hit with a vehicle between 21 and 60 meters/CT (most vehicle's Accel speeds for tactical combat) then you're doing an attack of Body P damage, -1/2 AP. If you choose a real car and not a commuter, you're looking at a base of no less than 10. If you're using a GM Bulldog that's a freaking base damage of 16. At this point the only problem is hitting the spirit, as they use Rea + Dodge to avoid being hit as opposed to just Rea like a gun. If you can hit them, though, it's almost a guaranteed disruption, especially using a van against a F10 spirit. That's not even using a Ramming plate, which allows you to do that with a motorcycle. There's a reason I have something saved in my files titled "Murdercycle."

I start to feel insulted by your "bullets are not deadly - I know a case where somebody dodged one once" logic.

There's something I've heard about responding to people who are feeling insulted, but I choose instead to remain civil. Suffice it to say I don't care what your emotional state is when your arguments are broken on the altar of RAW.

[Neraph]

I agree on your assessment of wards. They are the only thing keeping mages in check. Background count not so much, as the effects of often occurring bc is small.

And yes there is a counter for everything, (except horde of force 6 fire spirits), but that's not the point.

If you're not experiencing BC often, like the rulebooks actually state, but you're encountering hordes of F6 spirits... You and I are not only at different tables, but apparently playing different games also.

From a player perspective a mage does most of the things better than the mundane. It is irrelevant that what he does can in principle be countered. The mundane stuff can also be countered and is on average much less effective.

You can't deny that a mage with the spells given above make lots of character concepts just bystanders,that hope a ward will pop up so they can contribute.

Not only can I but I did.

BTW at our table summoning was nerfed to take force minutes and only one bound and one unbound spirit per summoner. And still my mundane players complain about spirits being too strong. Did you do the math of a force 8 fire elemental in 5th edition lately? What do mundanes do against that? Carry water?

Maybe if you encountered BC and enforced the inherent limitations on Bound and Unbound spirits you wouldn't have to make such a house rule. Even allowing Cha number of spirits isn't an end-all - you gank the mage and the spirits don't care anymore.

Let alone against a number of force 6 fire elementals every complex action you get with standard rules out of the air no way to detect, avoid, or prevent with any security measures except shooting the mage outright before.

(emphasis mine)
You can't detect spirits in 5th Ed? I think I found your problem - invisible spirits making attacks that are unavoidable are your problem, and likely a result of misreading the rules.

I think the root of my anxiety is that I was planning on playing a Dronomancer and gave it up so my son wouldn't feel gimped in meat-space. So now I'm looking for another niche to fill, when I was all excited about how awesome my dronomancer was going to be.

It's difficult for me to get excited about a street samurai when I keep comparing him and the cost of his chrome to the cost and effectiveness of my dronomancer's sprite-enhanced drones.

Thoughts?

If you're only comparing cost-efficiency you'll never be happy. Try looking beyond that. For example, your sprite-enhanced drones may be a lot cooler than an average Sammy, but that sammy can be woken out of a dead sleep and be able to perform whereas your TM needs all the setup of registering sprites and allocating tasks. Also, your TM may be able to field a number of drones, but keep in mind those are technically NPCs on the field. I'll take a mandalorian over a squad of CIS drone troops any day.

[2XS]

You can cluster, say, 3 combat drones together, and prior to starting the run compile 4 rating 12 machine sprites. Yeah, the Fading is physical and hellacious, but you have time, fading can be healed with magic (unlike drain) and you only need 1 service each. 3 sprites you command to operate your drones, the 4th one sustains Diagnostics on the cluster.

12 pilot, 12 targeting autosoft (and 3 more autosofts of your choice, one for each full 3 rating worth of your sprite) plus the minimum 6 dice bonus for Diagnostics, and you've got some cheapish, *very* deadly drones.

Without magic or resonance, essence-focused characters seem like little more than really expensive drones that are difficult to mod. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

With magic, you could do the same thing with Spirits, though you'd have to bind them for more services. Of course that's what Spirit foci are for. But then you get ItNW in there for good measure, plus powers that do Force (12!) DV.

And that's before Initiation/Submergence, which mundanes have no analogue for, unless you look at Delta-grade ware in a certain light.

I feel like I'm missing something.

[2XS]

Maybe.. a melee focused character with assloads of reaction, dodge, and MBW to the point of being able to just about side-step bullets. Melee to get the NPCs attention on me and away from my wife and kids, then go full-defense to keep from getting shot. If they switch targets away from me or run out of IPs, cut them in half with a monofilament chainsaw...

I don't know if he'd be that powerful per se, but running fuckers down with a chainsaw sounds funny as *hell.* lol, force a composure test on the enemy by having a screaming lunatic with a chainsaw come charging at them. The more I think about this, the more I like it.

Okay, so the daddy (me) is gonna tank, sort of. Suggestions? I'm thinking MBW, monofilament chainsaw, and/or loud, scary guns, like LMGs or grenade launchers as attention-getters. Fully-automatic shotgun with an under-barrel chainsaw... WEEEE!

Again, just "thinking out loud" as it were, this would probably go really well with my family's sense of humor and help draw them into the game. What do you guys think? What else could I add? I don't want to load up on armor too much, as all the bulk kind of defeats the "American Psycho" vibe I'm getting right now. Light and fast, float-like-a-butterfly, sting like a chainsaw wielding maniac...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I agree on your assessment of wards. They are the only thing keeping mages in check. Background count not so much, as the effects of often occurring bc is small.

And yes there is a counter for everything, (except horde of force 6 fire spirits), but that's not the point.

From a player perspective a mage does most of the things better than the mundane. It is irrelevant that what he does can in principle be countered. The mundane stuff can also be countered and is on average much less effective.

You can't deny that a mage with the spells given above make lots of character concepts just bystanders,that hope a ward will pop up so they can contribute.

BTW at our table summoning was nerfed to take force minutes and only one bound and one unbound spirit per summoner. And still my mundane players complain about spirits being too strong. Did you do the math of a force 8 fire elemental in 5th edition lately? What do mundanes do against that? Carry water? Let alone against a number of force 6 fire elementals every complex action you get with standard rules out of the air no way to detect, avoid, or prevent with any security measures except shooting the mage outright before.

Even a BGC of 2 screws with Mages if they did not plan for it; and if they did, they deserve their power. Yes, Spells are awesome, but rarely do the Mages I see have all those spells. The best Mages, in my book, Have a Magic of about 4 and more spells than they can count. Problem is that all those spells cost a lot of Karma, and that is generally why you do not see mages with a ton of spells. Generally I see about 10-14 spells on a mage, and they are often the same spells, for the most part. One of My favorite characters of SR4A eventually attained a Magic 5, 4 Initiate Grades and 65 Spells (Spells alone cost 290 Karma, I started with 8 spells - But I still could not cover everything, I had a list of another 50 Spells I was purchasing and learning as the Karma Flowed). But he was not a solo runner. He definitely needed the other team mates to complete runs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

See, we compensate for Spirits by them resisting both Summoning and Binding (All Spirits at Forces above 3) with Edge Expenditure. REALLY cuts back on the Power level of Spirits when summoning them can kill you. 5th Edition cuts back on that a bit, but not all that much, and Spirits now only have Half Force in Edge, so they cannot be extreme powerhouses any longer. Saw a Force 5 Spirit deal 20 DV to a Mage cause it got really lucky with its resistance. And that damned Force 4 Viscera (Water) Spirit my necromancer kept trying to summon almost killed him each and every time. Was awesome. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

(stuffs)

First off, like I said, if you have the massive amounts of time and resources available for getting one service to be used on the drones, good news to you. You can't do that on the fly, and you certainly can't sustain that through the entirety of a 'run. The sammy can.

On chainsaw-ness?

Lancer

[ Spoiler ]

Colt M23 (6P; -2 AP; SA/BF/FA; 0 RC; 40©; 5R) [5R, 750]
[3 Slots] Underbarrel Weapon (Monofilament Chainsaw: 1 Reach; 5P; -2 AP) [4, 300]
[2 Slots] Gas Vent 3 [6R, 400]
[1 Slot] Smartgun System [6R, 750]
Av: 6R
Cost: 2,200
Plus Model: (On Chainsaw)
[1 Slot] Personalized Grip [2, 100]
[1 Slot] Flashlight [-, 25]
[1 Slot] Low-Light Flashlight [-, 25]
[1 Slot] Thermographic Flashlight [-, 25]
Barrel Mounted Laser Sight [2, 100]
Shock Pad [2, 50]
Av: 6R
Cost: 2,525

Chainsword

[ Spoiler ]

Monofilament Chainsaw (1 Reach; 5P; -2 AP) [4, 350]
[1 Slot] R1 Custom Look (Sword) [2, 100]
[1 Slot] Personalized Grip [2, 100]
[1 Slot] Reduced Weight [6, 350]
[1 Slot] Gecko Grip [6, 100] (+6 Str vs. Disarm)
[1 Slot] Skinlink [6, 50]
[- Slots] Lanyard [10] (+4 Str vs. Disarm)
Av: 6
Cost: 1,060
Notes: Because of the custom look (sword) and reduced weight, the -2 penalty on attack rolls and parry tests should be negated.

See, we compensate for Spirits by them resisting both Summoning and Binding (All Spirits at Forces above 3) with Edge Expenditure. REALLY cuts back on the Power level of Spirits when summoning them can kill you. 5th Edition cuts back on that a bit, but not all that much, and Spirits now only have Half Force in Edge, so they cannot be extreme powerhouses any longer. Saw a Force 5 Spirit deal 20 DV to a Mage cause it got really lucky with its resistance. And that damned Force 4 Viscera (Water) Spirit my necromancer kept trying to summon almost killed him each and every time. Was awesome. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

YMMV, definitely. I hate the concept of automatically having spirits spend Edge to resist being summoned, but hey, it works for your table.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

YMMV, definitely. I hate the concept of automatically having spirits spend Edge to resist being summoned, but hey, it works for your table.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Yeah, I know.
There are ways to mitigate it, and they take effort, but it works for us. And any mage that cares works at it... those who do not keep to the lower Forces... Cannot tell you how many times a Force 2-3 Spirit made the critical Difference. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)