Why play a Street Samurai?, Are any mundane builds comparable to Magic/Resonance builds? Options

[Neraph]

SR4. Unwired, page 55, Slaving, first paragraph, second sentence: "... slaved node does not accept any Matrix connections... and instantly forwards any connection attempts to the master." So yes, apparently. Except: Unwired, page 54, Routing, first paragraph, second sentence: "Due to the mesh-network nature of the Matrix, every wireless node can function as a router and will do so if not in passive or hidden mode (see PAN modes, p. 211, SR4)." Emphasis mine.

Which is why all important nodes are Hidden and Slaved. Theoretically you can just use the mesh to reroute to get to the Master node, but it's still hidden, remember? I'd rule (though I couldn't prove it in the rules without more research) that you would have to do a separate Search function to find the Master remotely like that.

[2XS]

Awesome, tyvm. That makes perfect sense, when you include the "hidden mode means not a router" qualifier.

[Neraph]

I've been out of the game for nearly three years, but it's good to see I innately remember how things work even if it takes me a little resource consultation to brush off exactly why it works.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Changing what the drone does shouldn't cost another task; changing what the Sprite does will. And while I agree that "Pilot this node" is nebulous and open ended, it seems within the bounds of the rules as written. It doesn't get really cheesy until you realize that all the drones clustered like that count as one node, and the Sprite counts as "in" all of the drones simultaneously, and all that that implies.

Also, the fact that only Awakened can disrupt spells and only TMs can hack TMs again lends itself to the whole "mundanes get the short end of the stick" thing I started this thread with. Mages aren't OP, as long as there's a Mage around to disrupt his buffs. TMs aren't OP, as long as there's a TM handy to Decompile his Sprites and hack his Bionode. Street Samurai, well... no special immunities there.

Case in point: if you come across a group of a Mage, TM with at least one combat drone, and a Street Samurai, who would you focus on last? Pretty sure it'd be the Street Samurai.

To be honest, we have had little issues with Mundane dealing with Awakened/Emergent characters more often than not. They both are highly susceptible to high-speed projectiles.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Every 3rd dice roll is a success.

Actually, you Buy 1 Hit for 4 Dice. This was what Neraph was talking about when he indicated 1 hit per 4 dice. Even in 5th Edition. See "Buying Hits" SR5, Page 45.

And yes, Serbitar, Elemental Damage does work against Spirits. It has an effect upon ARMOR (just as all AP has an effect), which aids in punching through it. Also, when you check for Immunity and adjudicate the Damage, you also have to take into account the AP of the weapon doing Damage. So that Force 6 Spirit with 12 Armor impacted by a Weapon with -5 AP reduces that Armor to 7. Half of 7 is just 3.5 (rounded down). So that Spirit now only has 3 levels of automatic Reduced damage rather than 6.

And please note, Serbitar, Spirits on a Remote Service still count as your One Unbound Spirit. They are not released until after the Service Is Completed. In other words, if you summon a spirit and give it a remote service, you cannot summon another one (for your unbound slot) until that service is completed.

[Sendaz]

To be honest, we have had little issues with Mundane dealing with Awakened/Emergent characters more often than not. They both are highly susceptible to high-speed projectiles.

I always liked the quote from the Vlad Taltos series:

“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.”
― Steven Brust

[Neraph]

I always liked the quote from the Vlad Taltos series:

“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.”
― Steven Brust

Words to live by.

[2XS]

My wife's Face has a poison gland in her mouth. She can kill people at dinner parties with her fork, and gives new meaning to "kiss of death."

[Neraph]

One of my friends played an ork with a chemical gland in her vagina that killed people when she had sex with them.

...

"You spent so much time wondering if you could that you didn't spend any time wondering if you should."

[2XS]

omfg that's awesome... But who does Ork chicks?? lol

[KCKitsune]

omfg that's awesome... But who does Ork chicks?? lol

Maybe she wears a paper bag over her head? just kidding Neraph! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Serbitar]

Actually, you Buy 1 Hit for 4 Dice. This was what Neraph was talking about when he indicated 1 hit per 4 dice. Even in 5th Edition. See "Buying Hits" SR5, Page 45.

And yes, Serbitar, Elemental Damage does work against Spirits. It has an effect upon ARMOR (just as all AP has an effect), which aids in punching through it. Also, when you check for Immunity and adjudicate the Damage, you also have to take into account the AP of the weapon doing Damage. So that Force 6 Spirit with 12 Armor impacted by a Weapon with -5 AP reduces that Armor to 7. Half of 7 is just 3.5 (rounded down). So that Spirit now only has 3 levels of automatic Reduced damage rather than 6.

And please note, Serbitar, Spirits on a Remote Service still count as your One Unbound Spirit. They are not released until after the Service Is Completed. In other words, if you summon a spirit and give it a remote service, you cannot summon another one (for your unbound slot) until that service is completed.

I know the buying hits rule. But when calculating average performance of actual dice rolls it's irrelevant.

Your interpretation of hardened Armor concerning auto hits and penetration is contradicted by the wording in the Immunity Power section. But yes it's contradicting the wording in Hardened Armor section (but you round up instead of down).
5th edition rules are contradictory crap.
That leave you (with the favourable interpretation) with:
Taser 9/-5 = 10 - 4 - 14/3 = 1.33 damage
IF you hit him!

My simple point is: For a complex action and 0-1 drain (on average) you get the power of a street sam (dont you think that with the stats the F6 fire elemental has he has about the power of a starting street sam? 14 dice attacking, 16 dice defending, lots of armor, 12p/-6 damage) that does not have to sneak in and does not have to hide his weapon while going in and can be summoned again if dead.
Whats your thinking here? Isnt that a valid point?
And as I said for 1-2 points of edge (the second for drain resistance if the drain was too high) you can get force 10 and then the game is over. Again with a complex action, again without having to sneak the big obvious weapon into the facility first.
I am always hearing that some specifics are wrong, but what about the bigger picture? Why do I need a combat character if I can just take a mage and spend some points on summoning?
Are other character concepts fun and playable? Hell yes, but why the heck does a mage get so much in one package? Levitation costs 5 karma to learn and then you can basically fly (with laughable drain). An adept has to spend points and points to just run 4 meters up a wall!

In 5th,there is no limit on unbound spirits. There is some vague wording that you can only summon one at a time (they either mean summon only 1 at the the same time, in which case you can summon more later, or have summoned only one at the same time, in which case you cant bind, crappy rules). But as I said you just wait till its dead and get a new one then. At some point the opposition will go down.

[Neraph]

omfg that's awesome... But who does Ork chicks?? lol

Have you seen the 4th Ed Gun Adept pic? She's surprisingly cute. That's not even taking into consideration whatever fetishes abound in the 2070's. Troll-on-dwarf porn was a running gag at my tables.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Have you seen the 4th Ed Gun Adept pic? She's surprisingly cute. That's not even taking into consideration whatever fetishes abound in the 2070's. Troll-on-dwarf porn was a running gag at my tables.

You haven't seen anything until you have seen a Blue Mage into Pixies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KnightAries]

Lets see.... Why play a street Sammie?.?.?..
Because you can or want to. That's all there is to it.
I've been hearing back and forth arguments about mages superior mundains inferior. Well, partly true. I find bullets are the great equalizer.
So mage summons level 10 spirit; bullet finds mage; spirit goes away... Bullet the great equalizer.

The next thing; most of the arguments I'm hearing sounds like an argument about PC's....
Who the hell cares if you ally summons a level 10 spirit *just pray he keeps control, doesn't go unconscious; drain doesn't kill him*. All bad guys now focus on spirit (if they don't see the mage and put a bullet in his head *Bullet again equalizing* and street sammie starts putting bullets in bad guy heads *again with the equalizing*

Now I have no problem throwing a little magic in the way of players (even if they don't have a mage) but I would never (as a GM) in my right frackn mind throw a level 6 force spirit let alone a level 10 force spirit at a new party if the didn't have the means to kill it.

It is the responsibility of the GM to have things balanced at his/her table so all players have fun. I love SR and have played every edition up to 4a (working on reading up on 5 so I can run a new party). one of the things I love about it is I can do so many things and this alone has the potential of making the game unbalanced augmented, mage, Techie or none of the above. Why, because with all the rules the balance is all in how you play the game.

I played where I've had characters die and ran games where I've killed characters (both intentionally and unintentionally). We all should have; I find it one of the reasons I like the game. The characters can die just as easily in the beginning as they can in the end and usually from a careless mistake or unlucky circumstance and usually from a bullet *Damn equalizer*

Just remember if the game is unbalanced; it's the GM's fault (not RAW).
So with all of that in mind.... What the hell is everyone arguing about??????

MY 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
*now that I'm broke*
Mr J, What do you have for runs?

[binarywraith]

I know the buying hits rule. But when calculating average performance of actual dice rolls it's irrelevant.

Your interpretation of hardened Armor concerning auto hits and penetration is contradicted by the wording in the Immunity Power section. But yes it's contradicting the wording in Hardened Armor section (but you round up instead of down).
5th edition rules are contradictory crap.
That leave you (with the favourable interpretation) with:
Taser 9/-5 = 10 - 4 - 14/3 = 1.33 damage
IF you hit him!

My simple point is: For a complex action and 0-1 drain (on average) you get the power of a street sam (dont you think that with the stats the F6 fire elemental has he has about the power of a starting street sam? 14 dice attacking, 16 dice defending, lots of armor, 12p/-6 damage) that does not have to sneak in and does not have to hide his weapon while going in and can be summoned again if dead.
Whats your thinking here? Isnt that a valid point?
And as I said for 1-2 points of edge (the second for drain resistance if the drain was too high) you can get force 10 and then the game is over. Again with a complex action, again without having to sneak the big obvious weapon into the facility first.
I am always hearing that some specifics are wrong, but what about the bigger picture? Why do I need a combat character if I can just take a mage and spend some points on summoning?
Are other character concepts fun and playable? Hell yes, but why the heck does a mage get so much in one package? Levitation costs 5 karma to learn and then you can basically fly (with laughable drain). An adept has to spend points and points to just run 4 meters up a wall!

In 5th,there is no limit on unbound spirits. There is some vague wording that you can only summon one at a time (they either mean summon only 1 at the the same time, in which case you can summon more later, or have summoned only one at the same time, in which case you cant bind, crappy rules). But as I said you just wait till its dead and get a new one then. At some point the opposition will go down.

You forgot the most important part of having spirits over being a sam. Spirits get their own initiative passes, so in theory you can be rocking up to 10 passes a round with 3 force 6 elementals and one for yourself.

[Sendaz]

omfg that's awesome... But who does Ork chicks?? lol

Hey, once you go Ork that's all you'll pork. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[KnightAries]

Hey, once you go Ork that's all you'll pork. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

MMMmmm... Pork, it's what's for dinner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lick.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[2XS]

MMMmmm... Pork, it's what's for dinner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lick.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

"Orc: the other, other, *other* white meat."

[tisoz]

I am curious what causes background count in SR5. In the edition I play, summoning a F6 spirit is going to generate a BC which affects future summoning AND Drain tests. On the confrontation end, I am assuming having a F6 spirit attack is going to cause BC count or there is already a BC from an ongoing fight. The presence of a F6 or greater spirit of itself could cause a BC or add to an existing BC due to the emotion of a fight or violence. Depending on the actual location, there may be an existing BC to which violence, or magic adds.

I also wonder how the Conjurer is directing the spirits to the fight? I can understand if it is a conjurer tasked with sending spirit support to a known location, such as a corp Security Mage to a corp facility, but I am wondering how a PC is directing these endless spirits to the fight? Even an astral traveler needs landmarks and can not travel in 'quick time' when trying to locate landmarks, then on to the 'next left at the big rock'. If it is 'find my fellow PC', it is going to take time. And how is the Summoner directing the spirit to attack when there are friends or neutral parties at the location? Spirits are NPCs, so a GM has every right to interpret the Mages directions as well as they are given. I guess after the first Fire spirit gets there it may simply be, "Look for the burning building." Which brings up the next observation, that most modern buildings have fire suppression systems that are going to get triggered when the spirit appears. I guess I'm missing something, but directing spirits remotely seems much more difficult than I've seen accounted for. If the Conjurer has some magical way to guide it to the fight, can't the opponents use the magic link to backtrack to the conjurers not so safe house?

Are there no Noticing Magic Use rules in 5th? It was TN4 + Magic Att - Force. not too hard to notice a Magic 6 character doing F6 magic.

As to the OP figuring Magic or TM can do everything a mundane can plus...perhaps, but not to start. Every time I go to build one of those, I wind up with a character with minimal attributes and the majority of skills dedicated to their specialty, in short, they can do that one thing and barely function in other areas. Yes there are spells that can substitute for mundane means, but there are never enough spell points to do hardly any after taking a few must have spells. And they are karma sinks, so even during play, they are going to be a long time gaining the karma to get all those spells and get decent attributes, then by the time they are getting some of the skills mundanes started with, the mundanes retire their PC and the campaign ends.

[Glyph]

Magic is versatile, but that post seemed a bit hyperbolic to me. Mind probe doesn't replace a skilled interrogator or legwork - you need to nab someone who has the information, and know what questions to ask. Mental manipulations don't replace a face at negotiations - in fact, using them too often or too carelessly can have disastrous consequences. And invisibility combined with stealth won't turn a mage into a covert ops specialist - there are still pressure pads, ultrasound, locked doors...

I'm not saying mages with a good selection of spells aren't versatile, but they don't render mundane skills superfluous.

But spirits are a bit OP in SR5. It is slightly easier to damage them if you hit them, but with higher dodging pools and automatic successes resisting damage, you won't damage them a lot.

Despite the many nerfs to mundanes, though, it is still possible to make a nice, sneaky break-in specialist, a lethal street samurai, or a character with a mix of social, stealth, and combat skills.

[KarmaInferno]

You can overcome any level of magic or resonance with a sufficient quantity of explosives.

If you are having difficulties, use more.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



-k

[Neraph]

Thor cannons don't care about ItNW either - if you hit, everything in X radius is simply dead. Lasers also do wonders against ItNW.

[tisoz]

Thor cannons don't care about ItNW either - if you hit, everything in X radius is simply dead. Lasers also do wonders against ItNW.

Was that sarcasm?

I can't recall either being used in a serious way, only as a joke. But back then Lasers were pretty much mythical and Thor shots were cows falling from the sky.

[PraetorGradivus]

Hey, once you go Ork that's all you'll pork. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

In real life life there are guys who have a thing for midgets, or like xxxxxl sized women, or like women so skinny you can't figure out how they haven't died from starvation... to each his own.

So why is it far fetched that instead of having the hots for the steroid laden human female bodybuilder, someone has the hots for an orc that has them muscles naturally.