IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Jackpoint vs Shadowlands
carmachu
post Sep 8 2015, 01:28 AM
Post #1


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 23-December 12
Member No.: 66,164



I can honestly say, while I'm enjoying Lockdown as a product, I've discovered that I truely and deeply HATE jackpoint and most of its users. Especially when I look upin older products Shadowlands discussions. Maybe its the old grognard shadowrunner in me, but Jackpoint in this comes off as the antithesis of everything Shadowland was. Shadowland was about getting information out. Jackpoint isnt- once I read Netcat's post, I started discovering I really didnt like Jackpoint or any of its posters much(well, other then Kane, becuase he's old fun). Reading page 78-79, and saying its better to keep everything underwraps, and keep the information underwraps and they were ok with it, it reminds me how different jackpoint is from the old Shadowlands when Bug city quarantine came down and they HAD to get the information out.

Captain Chaos's eghost has to be rolling somewhere in the matrix right about now.

(Of course maybe that was always suppose to be that way and I missed it, but here in Lockdown is where I've seen it most)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KnightAries
post Sep 8 2015, 02:39 AM
Post #2


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 243
Joined: 15-July 12
From: Everywhere that's in the middle of nowhere.
Member No.: 53,043



QUOTE (carmachu @ Sep 7 2015, 06:28 PM) *
Captain Chaos's eghost has to be rolling somewhere in the matrix right about now.

(Of course maybe that was always suppose to be that way and I missed it, but here in Lockdown is where I've seen it most)


With FastJacks soon to follow.... If he hasn't already... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
binarywraith
post Sep 8 2015, 02:58 AM
Post #3


Shooting Target
****

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,973
Joined: 4-June 10
Member No.: 18,659



Nah. Jack'll be fine.

They know how to fix headcases now, and ten to one he's got most of his brain mapped in optical chips somewhere anyway.

Honestly, though, I think this is a direct result of the direction the writing took in 4e. They decided to drop the neo-anarchist underpinnings, and that means no more 'information desires to be free' and everyone trying to stick it to the man rather than just get paid.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KnightAries
post Sep 8 2015, 11:18 AM
Post #4


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 243
Joined: 15-July 12
From: Everywhere that's in the middle of nowhere.
Member No.: 53,043



QUOTE (binarywraith @ Sep 7 2015, 07:58 PM) *
Nah. Jack'll be fine.

They know how to fix headcases now, and ten to one he's got most of his brain mapped in optical chips somewhere anyway.


I agree he may become a ghost in the machine..... Oh gawd that sounds so cliche'

QUOTE (binarywraith @ Sep 7 2015, 07:58 PM) *
Honestly, though, I think this is a direct result of the direction the writing took in 4e. They decided to drop the neo-anarchist underpinnings, and that means no more 'information desires to be free' and everyone trying to stick it to the man rather than just get paid.

Yea, there has been a serious decline in quality of story for awhile now...

What always gets me (and part of the reason I really don't prefer D&D anymore) is why these companies have to go and completely rewrite their systems when it isn't needed when they can just go and fix what is needed. Then they could continue making their money through supplements and other things.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
carmachu
post Sep 8 2015, 01:09 PM
Post #5


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 23-December 12
Member No.: 66,164



QUOTE (KnightAries @ Sep 8 2015, 06:18 AM) *
Yea, there has been a serious decline in quality of story for awhile now...

What always gets me (and part of the reason I really don't prefer D&D anymore) is why these companies have to go and completely rewrite their systems when it isn't needed when they can just go and fix what is needed. Then they could continue making their money through supplements and other things.


Decline in story is another matter(although I agree a bit). But in this instance its more in character items I'm reading and seeing a very different attitude then what i was use to. Perhaps it was always there, but never this blatant that I noticed before. Not quite happy with it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Blade
post Sep 8 2015, 01:46 PM
Post #6


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,009
Joined: 25-September 06
From: Paris, France
Member No.: 9,466



The official explanation for the change was that it was difficult to keep track of the Shadowtalkers both for writers and readers. A smaller group of Jackpointers with clearly defined identities was supposed to make it easier to understand where each one came from and their angle on the points they talked about.

The loss of the (neo)-anarchist voice isn't exactly linked to the change from Shadowlands to Jackpoint. This change was done when Rob Boyle was still Line Dev, and he was probably the most anarchist Line Dev SR ever had.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Larsine
post Sep 8 2015, 02:58 PM
Post #7


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 647
Joined: 9-September 03
From: Sorø, Denmark
Member No.: 5,604



QUOTE (KnightAries @ Sep 8 2015, 01:18 PM) *
What always gets me (and part of the reason I really don't prefer D&D anymore) is why these companies have to go and completely rewrite their systems when it isn't needed when they can just go and fix what is needed. Then they could continue making their money through supplements and other things.

Core rulebook sell well, supplements and adventures don't sell nearly enough for an RPG company to survive.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sk8bcn
post Sep 8 2015, 03:20 PM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 702
Joined: 21-August 08
From: France
Member No.: 16,265



Edition changes are a requierement to bring some new blood in the Customer base. So I do think that it is a good thing to do, no matter which game, every x years.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KnightAries
post Sep 8 2015, 06:29 PM
Post #9


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 243
Joined: 15-July 12
From: Everywhere that's in the middle of nowhere.
Member No.: 53,043



QUOTE (sk8bcn @ Sep 8 2015, 08:20 AM) *
Edition changes are a requierement to bring some new blood in the Customer base. So I do think that it is a good thing to do, no matter which game, every x years.


Ok, true...
But they can still try actually fixing things...
i.e. Deckers weren't really usable effectively until 3rd because Matrix rules were garbage then they go and do away with decks so bad that I didn't need a decker (or hacker) in 4th as I could do everything with a small set of chained commlinks and a few agents as decks were gone. It looks like the 5th may have fixed some of this.

I think I'll go through all the rules and see if I can piece things together....

Aahh who am I kidding... I'm to lazy to find the time to do this so I'll just keep posting negative comments about the game I prefer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
lokii
post Sep 8 2015, 08:54 PM
Post #10


Keeper of the Timeline Maps
**

Group: Members
Posts: 410
Joined: 21-December 10
Member No.: 19,243



I might be mistaken but I don't think that the fact that Jackpoint was conceived as a closed user group changed a lot about the way information was presented. To me the problem lies in how much the Jackpointers began to inject themselves into world (metaplot) affairs. Everything from artifact hunting and dragon politics to matrix whole system rewrites and curing technoviral infections there is someone from Jackpoint involved. Sure, on a few occasions Shadowland also played a important role for the metaplot but usually confined to matrix affairs where it's principals were close to the cutting edge.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KnightAries
post Sep 8 2015, 09:16 PM
Post #11


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 243
Joined: 15-July 12
From: Everywhere that's in the middle of nowhere.
Member No.: 53,043



QUOTE (lokii @ Sep 8 2015, 01:54 PM) *
I might be mistaken but I don't think that the fact that Jackpoint was conceived as a closed user group changed a lot about the way information was presented. To me the problem lies in how much the Jackpointers began to inject themselves into world (metaplot) affairs. Everything from artifact hunting and dragon politics to matrix whole system rewrites and curing technoviral infections there is someone from Jackpoint involved. Sure, on a few occasions Shadowland also played a important role for the metaplot but usually confined to matrix affairs where it's principals were close to the cutting edge.

Yea, on shadowlands we only had to worry about deckers making comments on Grade "A" Bang Bangs because someone had to (FastJack)

Naaa....

The differences I saw was in 1st and 2nd ed there was more down to earth comments because most of the resource books were setup like shopping guides and a little synopsis at the beginning of the chapter followed by comments under each item.

I think at the end of 2nd and into 3rd it moved away from that. It's been getting more "worldly" after the loss of Capt Chaos. But if I follow how it's been going it's because some of the main characters (i.e. fastjack) has been getting older and showing more concern for the world itself and less about which bang bang is better (miss-ya hatchetman)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sn00py
post Sep 9 2015, 01:00 AM
Post #12


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: 4-August 15
Member No.: 196,679



I really miss the "shopping guide" set up for the gear books. Made it a lot more immersive, as players could browse through them and be seeing what their characters would see in game.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KnightAries
post Sep 9 2015, 02:32 AM
Post #13


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 243
Joined: 15-July 12
From: Everywhere that's in the middle of nowhere.
Member No.: 53,043



QUOTE (Sn00py @ Sep 8 2015, 06:00 PM) *
I really miss the "shopping guide" set up for the gear books. Made it a lot more immersive, as players could browse through them and be seeing what their characters would see in game.


Yea, me to...
That was my original put off for 3rd ed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
lokii
post Sep 9 2015, 07:21 AM
Post #14


Keeper of the Timeline Maps
**

Group: Members
Posts: 410
Joined: 21-December 10
Member No.: 19,243



Nostalgia aside my point is, it becomes more likely to disagree with ("hate") the Jackpoint users once they start to act as protagonists and you know more about their activities rather than just reading their commentary and the occasional personal anecdote, boast or bickering. Worst of all are these shadowrunner coalitions for good.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
binarywraith
post Sep 9 2015, 09:26 AM
Post #15


Shooting Target
****

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,973
Joined: 4-June 10
Member No.: 18,659



It also makes it harder to have subject matter experts in the comments who would never be Jackpointers. Like SPD, Orange Queen, or PyramidWatcher.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KnightAries
post Sep 9 2015, 11:18 AM
Post #16


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 243
Joined: 15-July 12
From: Everywhere that's in the middle of nowhere.
Member No.: 53,043



Well, Shadowland fell after Capt Chaos died...
Jackpoint was fastjack doing and he's now presumed loss.
Why not loose jackpoint and make dumpshock??

Just saying... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Red_Cap
post Sep 9 2015, 02:32 PM
Post #17


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 265
Joined: 15-September 08
From: Florida
Member No.: 16,346



While I can appreciate the whys of JackPoint -- both in-game and out -- I still prefer the old Shadowlands commentary. Yes, it's a larger spread of characters for the writers to keep track of, but it also lets them toss in "dump" names to throw out plot hooks that you never need to see again. Plus, I really enjoyed seeing commentary from some of the metaplot characters; I was just re-reading Dragons of the Sixth World the other day, actually, and the interplay between Hestaby and Harlequin or seeing Ghostwalker actually post in his own chapter, for example, brought a smile to my face. A lot of that is stuff that doesn't directly effect the street-level runs that most of us play, but it adds depth to the world knowing that not only do these major players exist but that they keep a keen eye on the shadows.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
binarywraith
post Sep 9 2015, 05:22 PM
Post #18


Shooting Target
****

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,973
Joined: 4-June 10
Member No.: 18,659



Hell, you want a perfect example, pull up the shadow talk for the MP Laser series.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nemo
post Sep 9 2015, 07:18 PM
Post #19


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 90
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Germany
Member No.: 2,102



QUOTE (binarywraith @ Sep 9 2015, 05:22 PM) *
Hell, you want a perfect example, pull up the shadow talk for the MP Laser series.



Streetsamurai Catalog page 79, Internal voice Modulator
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
carmachu
post Sep 10 2015, 11:59 PM
Post #20


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 23-December 12
Member No.: 66,164



QUOTE (lokii @ Sep 9 2015, 02:21 AM) *
Nostalgia aside my point is, it becomes more likely to disagree with ("hate") the Jackpoint users once they start to act as protagonists and you know more about their activities rather than just reading their commentary and the occasional personal anecdote, boast or bickering. Worst of all are these shadowrunner coalitions for good.



Actually, worst of all was shadowrunner coalitions for good SIDING WITH corporations and what they were doing with silencing folks of what was happening- Netcat I'm looking at you specifically.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th March 2024 - 11:36 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.