[SR3]What was the idea behind melee fighting in SR3 Options

[Stahlseele]

If you WANT a fast melee dodge fighter, you need to play an adept anyway.

[sk8bcn]

Let's say my cybered elf (in my case it's a dwarf but for this exemple I take an elf) with skill 6, claws and wired-reflex face that troll with an iron bar, skill 4.

reach is +2 for the troll, he ain't gonna loose. Even if he was an ork, my cybered elf would struggle to win.

6 to 12 dices TN 5 means 2 to 4 successes in average and 1-2 vs TN 6.

for the skill 4 guy, 4 to 8 dices TN 4 means 2 to 4 successes in average



Or put 2 melee gangers against him... same: he struggles.


For a matter of style, you already lose efficiency by choosing melee instead of range. But not only that, but you are significantely weaker too.


Well anyways, maybe it's not the "winner that hit that I should change" but something has to be changed in the system.

[Stahlseele]

No.
It.
Does.
Not.
If you want a system where STR and Bod are useless for close combat and quickness rules supreme, you play SR4 or 5.
In SR3, it is perfectly fine as it is, because it is role protection of the strong man.
And as i said before, if you want a dodging close combat speed monkey, you play an adept, not a samurai.

This is just like saying:"My Troll has problems with the social stuff, the system needs to be changed!"
I just doesn't!
You knew what you were building when you were building it. Now you deal with it and stay out of the way.

[Maelwys]

Since you're faster theoretically with the wired reflexes, and probably faster due to your quickness (but maybe not with a dwarf), then use your speed to get in a superior fighting position, which drops your TN by 1 point. But if you're going up against a troll with a reach weapon, without a reach weapon of your own, then yeah. You're going to be heavily disadvantaged.

Of course, I'm pretty sure that's going to be an issue in any edition.

[Cochise]

Let's say my cybered elf (in my case it's a dwarf but for this exemple I take an elf) with skill 6, claws and wired-reflex face that troll with an iron bar, skill 4.

reach is +2 for the troll, he ain't gonna loose. Even if he was an ork, my cybered elf would struggle to win.

Two things to address right there:

1. This is not a problem of "fast-agile dodgy" vs. "strong and resilient" in general as far as the melee build itself is concerned. You could build a strong and tanky cyber-elf, dwarf or ork and still face the exact same problem. On mechanics level a troll's natural Reach of +1 simply makes him a strong melee adversary. Now think of a "fast-agile dodgy" troll melee fighter as your character.
2. It's obvious that you're not using the advanced melee rules because if you did (and at least remembered part of our discussion about a certain 30+ D6 melee dwarf) you'd know that there are ways around any Reach bonuses even when wielding weapons

A more general question there is: What do you expect there exactly in terms of "not struggling" against a decently well trained opponent and how should a "fast-agile dodgy" melee fighter be different in comparison to a "strong and resilient" fighter? Do you really expect this to be a situation where the "fast-agile dodgy" character takes out the "strong and resilient" one in a single strike because he's "fast"?

The basic premise already demands that the "fast-agile dodgy" character has to "work" in order to overcome his opponent. So "one shot" successes are technically out of question and subsequently "struggle" always comes into play whenever the opponent isn't "weak sauce".

6 to 12 dices TN 5 means 2 to 4 successes in average and 1-2 vs TN 6.

for the skill 4 guy, 4 to 8 dices TN 4 means 2 to 4 successes in average

Let's just say that the advanced melee rules with Martial Arts maneuvers - something you'd definitely want to educate yourself on when having interest in less one dimensional melee encounters - in addition to correct application of combat options would alter those TNs over the course of a combat turn significantly. The thing that won't change however is the fact that when going up against a troll the fight is bound to turn into a struggle unless you are both the significantly superior fighter and have a high enough base damage output.

Or put 2 melee gangers against him... same: he struggles.

Once again no problem that is actually restricted to "fast-agile dodgy" melee builds. Pretty much every melee build will struggle in combat situations where "Friends / Enemies in melee" come into play due to the double-dipping effect. But even if you house rule the double-dipping effect away the nature of opposed tests causes any modifier of +2 and higher to be of high significance.

For a matter of style, you already lose efficiency by choosing melee instead of range. But not only that, but you are significantely weaker too.

Then the lesson should be: If you're going for a melee character then do it right ... and no that doesn't necessarily mean that you must choose a troll for race but it demands that you educate yourself on all the options available and that you accept that trolls as well as multiple opponents will always be something that you struggle against when facing anything else than comparatively "very weak" fighters in relation to your own skill rating. But neither is directly linked to the choice of "strong and resilient" melee fighter vs. "fast-agile dodgy" melee fighter.

Well anyways, maybe it's not the "winner that hit that I should change" but something has to be changed in the system.

You most certainly should try utilizing the melee rules to their fullest potential before attempting anything like that.

[sk8bcn]

Then the lesson should be: If you're going for a melee character then do it right ... and no that doesn't necessarily mean that you must choose a troll for race but it demands that you educate yourself on all the options available and that you accept that trolls as well as multiple opponents will always be something that you struggle against when facing anything else than comparatively "very weak" fighters in relation to your own skill rating. But neither is directly linked to the choice of "strong and resilient" melee fighter vs. "fast-agile dodgy" melee fighter.

You most certainly should try utilizing the melee rules to their fullest potential before attempting anything like that.

I'm GM Shadowrun since a long time and never did I get a guy (new to the game) creating a dwarf with an axe...

He was wisely taught to take some firegun skill. However, since I never had anyone interested in melee, I never took a deep look at optional melee rules.

Now he's in game, and while the elf weapon specialist and the shooting adept kills a goon per IP (SA or BF=2 actions per round) my poor melee dwarf doesn't have anything close to this efficiency.


Ok, let's say that you Cochise and you, Stahlsee are right. Let's suppose beeing melee can be efficient. What rule should *he/I* look at to get him half competent?

By the way, as far as I remember, when I red back then the optional martial artist rules, they were pretty imbalanced. A I wrong about that?

[Kliko]

AK-97 plus a dikoted bayonet (and some polearm skill).

[Stahlseele]

He created a Dorf. With an Axe. Oy vey! ^^
That's so clichee! O.o
Max out STR. Max out Body. Max out running Speed to get into reach.
Load him up with good Armor. Both Ballistic and Impact. Boneworks.
Orthoskin. That's what he should have done to begin with.
And what is his skill-level? High? Medium? Does he have enchanced artwinculation?
Because that gives a bonus die already. Suprathyroid Gland. +1 Bonus to all physical attributes.
The Cardio whatsit Heart Bioware that gives +3 die to athletics such as running at people.

If the character is not built specifically for close combat/unarmed, then he will simply have to accept that.
It's like complaining that a rigger is bad at magic!

And even if you completely hardmax close combat/unarmed combat, it's still pretty hit and miss! (heh).
You can do gruesome damage in close combat, but you still want a decent ranged combat skill!
THe AK97 with the Dikote Bayonet and the Pole-Arm-Skill would be pretty decent for example.

[Kliko]

Don't forget the Attack of Will with decent Willpower and Charisma...

Reach bonus do get taken into account with that (making it a somewhat viable secondary spirit-buster).

[Stahlseele]

Shadowrun just IS a game that demands a bit of system mastery and focused intent when building a character to do something specific.
And if you can't get the CHARACTER up to speed . . well, you are the GM. Then you have to tailor the opposition better to the Characters.

[Cochise]

*This posting operates under the stipulation that we're still looking at a character that is more about Quickness and high Reaction / Initiative rather than being a strong and resilient melee "brute" ... despite a dwarf with an axe virtually screaming "I'm a strong and resilient melee brute"*

Ok, let's say that you Cochise and you, Stahlsee are right. Let's suppose beeing melee can be efficient. What rule should *he/I* look at to get him half competent?

Well, whatever you do, nothing will turn a melee specialist into someone who drops opponents "by the IP" when facing decently well trained opposition, but for starters you should take a very close look at the advanced melee rules in Cannon Companion beginning with p. 85 for the advanced combat options. Especially have a closer look at

• Charging Attack: can be stylish and fits the "fast" theme, in case of failure in the attacks is supported by high Quickness ratings to avoid damage and increases melee power by 1 thus making slightly up for lower strength values.
• Disarming: A successful disarming attack is a great way of completely changing the odds in a melee encounter due to the simple fact that it more than often removes damage capabilities from the opponent and - unless we're talking highly specialized melee experts with multiple melee skills - will force opposition into using lower skill ratings in unarmed melee or even defaulting with the associated TN modifiers and Combat Pool limitations
• Knockdown Attack: Knocking opposition to the ground will grant "opponent prone" (-2) modifier until the opponent manages to get back up and even in cases where your dwarf fails to knock opponents down the involuntary movement for the attacked person might warrant the "superior position" (-1) modifier for the dwarf during the next melee test

The other combat options - while certainly adding flavor at times - don't work too well due to the TN increases they usually involve.

The next thing you should have a closer look at are the Martial Arts rules starting from p. 86 in Cannon Companion. The interesting parts are Martial Arts maneuvers - commonly limited to usage in conjunction with a normal melee attack unless explicitly noted otherwise:

• Close Combat: Can totally negate any form of Reach penalties / bonuses for the involved parties at the cost of slightly decreased damage output and giving up on your own Reach modifiers. Typically used whenever you're the one with the lower Reach value.
• Disorient: Can create increasing TNs for opponents but can only be utilized to its fullest potentials by melee characters that actually have more than one Initiative Pass.
• Ground Fighting: Can negate the "opponent prone" modifier if you're unlucky enough to find yourself on the floor instead of your opponent.
• Herding: Perfect for moving an opponent into a bad position where he might suffer a situational +2 modifier during consecutive melee tests and may also warrant the "superior position" modifier to your character in addition to that.
• Sweep: Can make Knockdown attacks more efficient by re-introducing some of the damage you normally have to give up when making a Knockdown attack
• Whirling: Can reduce "Friends in melee" modifiers down to a single +1 modifier when facing multiple opponents.
• Zoning: Similar to Herding with the explicit benefit of being usable with the Full Defense option.

Now the thing is that these maneuvers can typically only be used with their respective Martial Art but some of these Martial Arts do allow to learn their associated maneuvers with armed melee skills as well. So you'll have to figure out which one is suited best. An axe (be it a Reach 2 version with the polearm skill or a Reach 1 with the Edged Weapons skill) would typically indicate something like "Kung Fu" or "Ninjutsu". For Reach 1 axes with the Edged Weapons skill you'd also want to take a look at the "Pentjak-Silat" and "Arnis de Mano" entries.

But be warned there: it can be rather costly in terms of karma / build points to get things up to fullest potential and you certainly can't have everything from start (nor should you expect seeing all of that on a character sheet unless we're talking some serious triple digit karma values). And since it's reasonable to expect that the original build of the dwarf wasn't designed around those rules you might want to give the player some extra karma just for the purpose of integrating some of those aspects without compromising the original idea.


*edit* Of course there isn't much that would prevent a "strong and resilient" melee build to utilize any of the aforementioned things ... just with variations in effectiveness and associated opportunity costs.

By the way, as far as I remember, when I red back then the optional martial artist rules, they were pretty imbalanced. A I wrong about that?

The actual imbalance doesn't lie with the advanced melee rules or the Martial Arts rules. The potential "culprits" are the advanced combat rules for ambidexterity (beginning at p. 94 of Cannon Companion) and their effects on armed melee combat. Those can indeed get a bit out of hand (which would bring us back to the already mentioned 30+ D6 melee dwarf) but on the other hand: What's the trouble with a dedicated ambidextrous melee expert who literally shreds targets per Initiative Pass when ranged combatants are already doing so?
And for the record: Pulling off an ambidextrous melee expert that still fits the "fast-agile dodgy" bill is very costly in build points / karma and goes down the path of "one-trick pony". A character like that will rarely be good at anything but melee.