Astral stregnth, Can you move physical pbjects? Options

[Joker9125]

ok heres the situation lets say you are an astrally projecting mage with a charisma of 5 which means you have a stregnth of 5 on the astral. Now you happen to come across some unconcious dual natured critter.

Could you pick it up and move it? Are their any rules for this type of thing? If so where are they?

[BitBasher]

No. Astral forms have no mass. You can damage the dual critter with astral attack but if you force your arms to move as if you were picking it up your arms will pass through it forcing an aural intersection. I don't think I just used the right term, but it means you resist damage.

Purely astral forms basically have no mass, and having no mass means you cannot exert force on anything physical.

[Kanada Ten]

The only thing I can think of would be Possession or a Control manipulation.

[BitBasher]

The control manipulation would have to be mana based, if levitate person would work on the target then I would think you could move a dual natured target with it while you are projecting.

[Joker9125]

Ok so if i cast levitate on him he would be effictively weightless so could i effective "push" said creature?

[Herald of Verjig...]

If you get a mana type levitate spell, you can move your target that way.

[Joker9125]

ok so no I caint push him after I cast levitate. This is good cause im suprised no one has thought of FAB gloves yet. Think about it an astral form putting on physical gloves and hitting you at the speed of thought.

[Frag-o Delux]

Or the fab gloves tearing his arms off because of what Bit Basher said. Astral forms can not pick up or move physical things and the dual form passing through a astral form causes a battle between the 2.

[Joker9125]

right i am well aware of what bit basher said. I may not have been clear with my earlier post when i said

[Frag-o Delux]

Yes it is, cause then the Mage population in a lot fo peoples games would be the exact opposite of what is stated in the books. :)

[Joker9125]

Yea. Im guilty of chronic mage playing. Is their some type of rehab center i can goto for help?

[Dweller on the T...]

Where are you coming up with the idea that an astral form lacks mass? Astral forms simply exist on the astral plane and purely physical objects have no effect on them whatsoever. The rules for Astral Constructs repeatedly state that items on the astral plane have all the normal properties of a physical object, and that includes weight.

Joker's idea for an astral form to move a dual-being's body around is pretty brilliant and a wonderful insight that I had never considered before, and by all indications in the rules it would work just fine as long as he had the astral Strength, defined by his Charisma while projecting as your Mentral Attributes do indeed become your Physical Attributes in that state, to lift and move the dual-being. The only problem is that while the astral form could slip through walls or move at the speed of thought, the dual-being it would be carrying restricts him from doing those things due to its presence on the physical plane.

It's a very neat idea with a lot of interesting possibilities. Thanks for sharing it, Joker9125!

[Joker9125]

Well I guess the idea of FAB gloves are back in! they would be rediciously expensive and only last a few hours but what the hey! Its still pretty awsome.

Unless someone can point to a page number stating that astral forms have no mass.

and can you please give a page number for this

[Dweller on the T...]

You can find it on page 100 of Target Awakened Lands. FAB Gloves would be a huge hindrance since they would have to be dual-natured to be effective, which by definition means they restrict you to physical actions. You wouldn't be able to move at super fast speeds, you wouldn't be able to move through walls, and anyone could see the gloves floating around.

[Ancient History]

FAB is not an astral construct. FAB gloves would be the equivalent in putting your hand in a FAB net and trying to pick it up (read: bad idea).

[Frag-o Delux]

I got the idea from reading a piece of fluff. I can't rememebr the book. A mage was caught in a FAB net and crushed to death. Surely a Chrisma of 3 (average person) would be able to hold up a net.

EDIT: And I think the speed of thought will be inhibated by the physical properties of the gloves. Moving at the speed f thought on the astral happens because the special properties of the astral plane.

[Eyeless Blond]

Even if it weren't for those particular rules, having astral objects be immobile wouldn't really make a whole lot of sense. The idea of having to fight everything you touch... ugh, it turns the astral plane into an old video game. :P It would also mean that you couldn't use weapon foci in astral form, because attempting to move it would put you in combat with it.

[Kanada Ten]

Eyeless, what do you mean? When one projects the dual-natured weapon focus projects with him or her leaving behind its physical form. Having Dual-Natured objects be immobile to Astral Beings is canon (SR3, Astral Countermeasures, Guardian Vines, Awakened Ivy).

Astral Constructs are Dual-Natured and thus have physical properties.

[Dweller on the T...]

The rules for FAB Strain-II just reiterate the fact that this would work as described above. The airborne form of FAB-II is dual-natured, so it limits the movement of astral forms to the equivalence of physical speeds since they have to push the FAB out of their way as they pass through.

EDIT: Astral Constructs aren't dual-natured. They have no presence on the physical plane. I don't see anything about biofiber or guardian vines that says they're immovable. The only thing I see is that guardian vines have an astral form that can move independantly of their physical forms making them more like an astrally projecting mage than a real dual-being. Since biofiber is basically a wall, moving one around is as unlikely as moving around a real wall.

[Kanada Ten]

Yes they are or no mundane could visit one without an Astral Rift.

2062 - On January 2, In Chicago, Illinois, UCAS, the Sears Tower appears in its old location from sunup to sundown, when it just as mysteriously vanishes. Several people who have been exploring the building are reported to have been injured or killed. (Target: Awakened Lands)


This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: May 14 2004, 04:03 AM

[Dweller on the T...]

The rules for astral rifts are completely different from astral constructs.

[Kanada Ten]

Mundanes cannot interact with Astral Space without an Astral Rift or Portal. Thus they could not interact with an Astral Constuct unless it was Dual-Natured, which they are.

[Dweller on the T...]

Please read the rules in question. To paraphrase Inigo Montoya, "I don't think those rules mean what you think they mean." They specifically state that they have no effect on the physical world.

[Kanada Ten]

[Dweller on the T...]

Quoting that repeatedly doesn't change anything except that you've obviously confused astral shallows with astral constructs.