[X] My Assistant

[Sengir]

Actually its the bugs who keep bringing up the Excalibur subject so as to divert attention from themselves. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

In all seriousness, that's not a bad thought. People keep getting reassigned to some outpost in the boondocks and are never heard of again? They obviously were responsible for the Excalibur thing. Intra-corporate struggle? Fallout from the Excalibur disaster. The thing you hear about Joe from Sales (or maybe it was in accounting, the grapevine is not sure)? You know that Excalibur has placed significant challenges upon us, and outside agents want to use this opportunity to sow fear and uncertainty among us, the Ares family. Stand strong, loyal citizens, as the proud phalanx of Ares did!

[Yes, I'm fully aware that there was no phalanx of Ares, but I guess Ares gives their namesake a better reputation than actual historical cults (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ]

[binarywraith]

The fall of a AAA is (was?) tied to the Shadowrun Chronicles game, as is Lockdown. I'm not entirely certain what's happening in regards to Chronicles these days, but I think that's one reason those plots are moving so slow.

It's... progressing. Slowly. Quite playable now, but I don't know where they're at on storyline other than being a bit annoyed that the base game's not done and they're already talking paid content pack.

[Wakshaani]

Keep the feedback rolling. Always good to see. (Even when painful.)

[Sascha Morlok]

Keep the feedback rolling. Always good to see. (Even when painful.)

I could point out some bugs if you like (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Wakshaani]

I could point out some bugs if you like (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

You're not disqualified from it y'know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Dig in!

[Sascha Morlok]

You're not disqualified from it y'know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Dig in!

You asked for it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Courting Disaster:
- That AG Chemie got dropped to A-level, even temporary, is bad for several reasons. besides invalidating some German sources, it leaves the question (as the whole AGC stuff happened in German canon before 2074), why AGC was still allowed to be part of the NEEC as a non-extraterritorial corp (the the list in Spy Games, p.93), or what happened to it's seat in the meantime.

Horizon:
- I haven't read all of it, but what I've read was generally ok. I just wondered about the absent of Wind River Corporation (acquired in January 2068, Sixth World Almanac). This is odd, because in the Sioux Nation PDF it is said that "[it's] only a matter of time until they go toe-to-toe with Horizon and Aztechnology on the world food market.", which again is bad, because of... things.

MCT:
- Sikorsky-Bell and Saab are both described as AA's. Unfortunately someone wrote in the CAS chapter in Dirty Tricks, that the CAS don't have any AA's beside Lone Star. As this statement ignores DocWagon, you may say it was bugged in the first place, so you may ignore it. Nonetheless Shadows of Europe clearly states (p. 145), that Saab is not a AA. Thou it would qualify as one, the CC refuses to give it to Saab, because the Scandinavian Union has signed just a modified version of the BRA and want to push them to sign the full treaty.
- Also it is said, that "Sikorsky-Bellalong with their Sikorsky Aircraft and Grumman Aerospace Corporation subsidiaries, [will pull] up to the top of the aircraft production field.". First Grumman is part of Lockheed (Rigger 3, p. 20), and S-B is just a major player in the helicopter market (p.21). As an aerospace company in general they are just #4, after Federated Boeing, Lockheed, Novatech (for whatever reason ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ) and when I get the introduction on page 20 right Saeder-Krupp and Ares are even before F-B (understandable, just count the aerospace companies in S-K's chapter).
- While not fully a bug, MCT bought "Yakashima Africa". Thou removed from the infobox at the beginning, it is still in the text. From my understanding of economics you can not just buy a whole division (which is not the same as a subsidiary, which are some sort of independent entities). And even if it was "exchanged" is it was in the text, it was a bad trade, as Yakashima gave up his whole division, plus two subsidiaries for CodeBlue Biotech, which is described in Corp Guide (p.117) as a "tiny European biotech company". I think someone got fooled. This is particularly bad, because of ... things.

Renraku:
- A nice bug is, that, while Renraku became a world leading food corporation 'over night' and surpassed Aztech in some areas, it is written, that Renraku bought Nestlé, which - again as written in the text - was a part of Aztech in the first place. Nestlé is actually a Z-IC subsidiary since Shadows of Europe (p.29) out-of-game, and in-game since the late '50s or early '60s (Corp Guide, p. 225). This is bad, because of... possible things.
- It is writen, that Renraku is a shareholder of Hyundai. The author just thought about the automobile company, but this Hyundai Motor Company, is a subsidiary of the Hyundai Motor Group, which again is part of the Hyundai Group umbrella. This, again, is bad, because of... things.

[Nath]

From my understanding of economics you can not just buy a whole division (which is not the same as a subsidiary, which are some sort of independent entities). And even if it was "exchanged" is it was in the text, it was a bad trade, as Yakashima gave up his whole division, plus two subsidiaries for CodeBlue Biotech, which is described in Corp Guide (p.117) as a "tiny European biotech company".

It's not uncommon for a corporation to spun off its divisions as subsidiaries. Though they may be wholly-owned subsidiaries headquartered at exactly the same address, inside the same building and using the same cafeteria, whose existence only matter to lawyers, accountants and tax services agents.

Anyway, you can buy whatever is for sale. If Yakashima is willing to sell its Yakashima Africa division, it can create such spin-off subsidiary and transfer all related assets just for the purpose of selling them. It's also pretty common to create a shell company to package assets sale (and avod taxes). If they wanted to, they could have created a spin-off subsidiary to sell all their assets whose current number of employees has a 7 in it and sold it to MCT.
But that also means that if Yakashima is not willing to sell, whether its an internal division, a 100%-owned subsidiary or even a 50,00001%-owned subsidiary, there is no way to buy it (except very specific cases where the management has been careless with debt collateral, stock options or simular instruments).

[Wakshaani]

You asked for it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Courting Disaster:
- That AG Chemie got dropped to A-level, even temporary, is bad for several reasons. besides invalidating some German sources, it leaves the question (as the whole AGC stuff happened in German canon before 2074), why AGC was still allowed to be part of the NEEC as a non-extraterritorial corp (the the list in Spy Games, p.93), or what happened to it's seat in the meantime.

One of the ongoing problems between teh German team and the US team. A lot of us have *no* *clue* what's going on over there. I've written off ever doing anything S-K related, for instance, as I don't want to step on toes over there. The downgrade probably happened after Spy Games and is part of the current Audit... my guess is that someone on teh Court had a bone to pick with AG, used this to whap them on the nose and cause soem damage, and that the second A will be restored on appeal ... just a way for the big dogs to keep everyone else in line.

Horizon:
- I haven't read all of it, but what I've read was generally ok. I just wondered about the absent of Wind River Corporation (acquired in January 2068, Sixth World Almanac). This is odd, because in the Sioux Nation PDF it is said that "[it's] only a matter of time until they go toe-to-toe with Horizon and Aztechnology on the world food market.", which again is bad, because of... things.

That was a huge absence, IMHO. Food is kind of important after all, and Wind River singlehandedly made Horizon the largest agricultural supplier in North America. It's kind of a big deal.

MCT:
- Sikorsky-Bell and Saab are both described as AA's. Unfortunately someone wrote in the CAS chapter in Dirty Tricks, that the CAS don't have any AA's beside Lone Star. As this statement ignores DocWagon, you may say it was bugged in the first place, so you may ignore it. Nonetheless Shadows of Europe clearly states (p. 145), that Saab is not a AA. Thou it would qualify as one, the CC refuses to give it to Saab, because the Scandinavian Union has signed just a modified version of the BRA and want to push them to sign the full treaty.

Dirty Tricks was my fault. I fully own that one. (Weirdly, the Atlantis Foundation is also listed as a double-A in other places, and is also based out of Atlanta. It shouldn't be so highly-rated, but, neither here nor there.) ... chalk it up to the chapter narrator having a brainfart. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Renraku:
- A nice bug is, that, while Renraku became a world leading food corporation 'over night' and surpassed Aztech in some areas, it is written, that Renraku bought Nestlé, which - again as written in the text - was a part of Aztech in the first place. Nestlé is actually a Z-IC subsidiary since Shadows of Europe (p.29) out-of-game, and in-game since the late '50s or early '60s (Corp Guide, p. 225). This is bad, because of... possible things.
- It is writen, that Renraku is a shareholder of Hyundai. The author just thought about the automobile company, but this Hyundai Motor Company, is a subsidiary of the Hyundai Motor Group, which again is part of the Hyundai Group umbrella. This, again, is bad, because of... things.

Renraku's always been a player in the ag game... surprised me when I was doing the reserach too. Back in Corporate Shadowfiles, it was S-K and Yamatetsu (tied at first), MCT, Renraku, and Shiawase (tied at second), and Aztechnology in third (!), above only Ares and Fuchi. in Corporate Download, it was Aztechnology and Shiawase tied at first, then Renraku and Yamatetsu tied at second, with Wuxing and MCT tied at third. Their agricultural strength had just never been well-detailed.
Nestle I'd found as having fallen apart back in 2008 (!) in Corporate Download, but I missed the Shadows of Europe part entirely. We'll have to tie up the Z-IC bit for certain. Drop me a line later for some brainstorming.

And I'll have to dig into the Hyundai Group. I tripped ove rthat with Shonen Jump in Japan, then caught myself and followe dthe trail all the way up to where it belonged, but I missed that for Hyundai. Dangit! Need more webcrawling...

[hermit]

One of the ongoing problems between teh German team and the US team. A lot of us have *no* *clue* what's going on over there. I've written off ever doing anything S-K related, for instance, as I don't want to step on toes over there.

Now this is interesting, because the German authors have the very same complaints.

The downgrade probably happened after Spy Games and is part of the current Audit... my guess is that someone on teh Court had a bone to pick with AG, used this to whap them on the nose and cause soem damage, and that the second A will be restored on appeal ... just a way for the big dogs to keep everyone else in line.

The perception among many German fans is that the US authors have a bone to pick with the German team and are retaliating in this way. However, it was stated (in Lockdown, I think) that, in-game, the AGC got the downgrade as part of the Audit and to set an example to all the other uppity 2A corps.

- It is writen, that Renraku is a shareholder of Hyundai. The author just thought about the automobile company, but this Hyundai Motor Company, is a subsidiary of the Hyundai Motor Group, which again is part of the Hyundai Group umbrella. This, again, is bad, because of... things.

However, Hyundai is a chaebol, a form of company roughly comparable to a Japanese keiretsu - a conglomerate of nominally separate companies under a common umbrella name (Hyundai, Mitsubishi, Samsung, Mitsui, Daewoo, Sumitomo) with interlocking stock ownership and controlled by members of an extended family or clan. Chaebol (or keiretsu) stock is rarely traded on stock markets, but due to their nominally independent nature, the separate divisions of a chaebol or keiretsu could evade US occupation dictates that forbade companies of a certain size or above (conversely, Shadowrun's Japanese megacorps are organized as Zeibatsu, which are actually illegal under the current (in-game, abandoned by the Yamato accords) Japanese constitution). If keiretsu were counted as singular entity, and not each member company separately, Sumitomo would be larger than Wal-Mart in every respect save employee numbers. IRL.

The nature of a keiretsu - a conglomerate of independent companies - however does mean that soem fo theae companies, should thier stock be for sale for any reason, may be bought up by another company while keeping their keiretsu name. This is mostly done to forment alliances between different conglomerates - for instance, the Mitsui bank, despite the name, belongs to Sumitomo - or due to the sellout of part of the conglomerate to an outsider party (I believe this happened to parts of Mitsubishi).

In Shadowrun, this means Hyundai Motors may belong to Renraku, while Hyundai-IBM, the core company, belongs to Eastern Tiger, as canon (more specifically, Corporate Shadowfiles) states.

[Wakshaani]

We really need to make a US-to-Germany channel for discussion. In one of those Things, we'd have to hold it in English, since I don't think anyone on teh US side knows a lick of German. Yes, I know exactly what commentary is now in peoples' heads. Don't get me started on US linguistic programs and expectations. We'll be here for a *while*.

[hermit]

We really need to make a US-to-Germany channel for discussion.

Yes, that seems really, urgently necessary. Most German authors know English at least well enough to communicate, I think.

And don't sweat it. It's just unrealistic to expect anyone to learn German for what's a side job at best, I'm seeing myself just how hard that seems to be working with refugees and American friends who consider emigrating next year way more seriously than I would have expected.

[Sascha Morlok]

Divisions, subsidiaries, sells:
Well, yes, I know that, but besides that all, I don't see any involving party is whiling to sell, either their share or whole parts of their company to either MCT or Renraku, either because of enmity (the Japanese and Koreans aren't the closest friends on this planet), or for pure economic reason, especially when you just get a tiny European company in exchange.

In Shadowrun, this means Hyundai Motors may belong to Renraku, while Hyundai-IBM, the core company, belongs to Eastern Tiger, as canon (more specifically, Corporate Shadowfiles) states.

Could you give me the page number for that? I always searched for the exact reference of Hyundai-IBM... but as I already hinted when I refereed to things, I meant the AA-chapter by me and Michel Witch, which included Yakashima and ETC (where I mentioned Hyundai Group as the second biggest Korean corporation (AA). Hyundai Group, because I couldn't find anything on Hyundai-IBM besides the name, and I guess that this is either just a joint venture or a subsidiary).

We really need to make a US-to-Germany channel for discussion. In one of those Things, we'd have to hold it in English, since I don't think anyone on teh US side knows a lick of German. Yes, I know exactly what commentary is now in peoples' heads. Don't get me started on US linguistic programs and expectations. We'll be here for a *while*.

There should be a forum post by Michel about that. I'm in completely favor of that, but there have some other things to be done. May find me on Facebook, where we could discuss this.

[Sascha Morlok]

Dirty Tricks was my fault. I fully own that one. (Weirdly, the Atlantis Foundation is also listed as a double-A in other places, and is also based out of Atlanta. It shouldn't be so highly-rated, but, neither here nor there.) ... chalk it up to the chapter narrator having a brainfart. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
[...]
Nestle I'd found as having fallen apart back in 2008 (!) in Corporate Download, but I missed the Shadows of Europe part entirely. We'll have to tie up the Z-IC bit for certain. Drop me a line later for some brainstorming.

There should cycle at least two, maybe even three or four corporate index Excel fills around. Some can be found, when you use google, two or three should be somewhere around all the freelancers, already. James Meiers started one, based on the oldest version. Then there seems to be a "2065" version (which also includes the bugs and errors of the original and Meier's version) and I also send around my version (most up-to-date one, with errors corrected and German sources included).

Personally, I wouldn't use Corporate Shadowfiles as source material, unless it's the only one, as it's very old, and mostly out-of-date. Also several things got retconed.

As for Z-IC, it is an old corp, (ingame), thou introduced in the London sourcebook, it was first greatly used in the 3rd edition, while Nestlé was included in a German sourcebook about Switzerland, but was named Nestor (and Nestlé was a subsidiary). With Shadows of Europe the retconed it to be Nestlé again.

For the Renraku situation, I would either use Mondolez or Coca Cola instead.

[hermit]

Could you give me the page number for that? I always searched for the exact reference of Hyundai-IBM...

I'll check, but it'll require using print books, therefore may take some time. My gut says corporate Download and corporate Shadowfiles, but I'll also check Shadows of Asia.

Edit: Nothing on Hyundai-IBM in SoA.

I also send around my version (most up-to-date one, with errors corrected and German sources included).

Would you terribly mind giving it to me? For my lists.

[Sascha Morlok]

I'll check, but it'll require using print books, therefore may take some time. My gut says corporate Download and corporate Shadowfiles, but I'll also check Shadows of Asia.

Edit: Nothing on Hyundai-IBM in SoA.

The Corporate index just lists Native American Nations 1 as a source for Hyundai-IBM, without a page number. IBM again is mentioned in Neo-Anarchist Guide to North America, while Hyundai Motors emerged first in Rigger 3. In SoA the just talk about Hyundai, so besides guessing the authors just wrinting about the motor company, I interpreted it in that way, that the Shadowtalkers actually talk about the Hyundai Group.

Would you terribly mind giving it to me? For my lists.

Sorry, but no. Beside it contain some internal stuff it is also still work in progress. But as I said, you can try your luck with Google, but that versions are not error free.

[hermit]

NAN one, huh. Hyundai as a motor company goes back as far as Shadowplay (the novel), which lists the Hyundai docks where the company keeps many, many import cars for sale in the Northwest.

Nothing I found in Corp shadowfiles, but damn it, why isn't there a searchable PDf of that book. :/

[Nath]

Could you give me the page number for that? I always searched for the exact reference of Hyundai-IBM...

Native America Nations, Volume I, page 113
>>>>>[Here's another look at defense. Chummer, you may think you've seen sophisticated computer systems, Aztechnology and Renraku in Seattle, Hyundai-IBM in Armonk, or the Alliance Franàaise in Québec-but you ain't seen nothing till you've tried to deck the Pueblo corporate system. It's part of the Matrix, but the level of sophistication is literally years ahead of any other part of the net. [...]<<<<<
- Core Warrior (09:32:58/10-12-52)

Those were the good old days when authors were creating megacorporations by taking the name of an American company and the name of an Asian company and putting them together.

Such entry in the Corporate Index that lacks page number either come from the word document Rob Boyle distributed to freelancers that I used as a starting point for the index, or from books I only had a French version available at the time (with different page numbers that wouldn't be relevant to other people). Considering I never managed to keep the things wholly up to date, I also never took the time to make a second pass to complete the missing data.

There should cycle at least two, maybe even three or four corporate index Excel fills around. Some can be found, when you use google, two or three should be somewhere around all the freelancers, already. James Meiers started one, based on the oldest version. Then there seems to be a "2065" version (which also includes the bugs and errors of the original and Meier's version) and I also send around my version (most up-to-date one, with errors corrected and German sources included).

I made the mistake not to put a version number in it. However, I only put new a version online when at least one book would have been added in full (which allow to use the booklist for versioning).
The "2065 version" was supposed to some sort of an ultimate version once it became obvious I would never find the time to catch up on 4th edition sourcebooks. It stopped with System Failure and third edition in 2065. I don't see how it could include bugs and errors "of the Meier's version" since it would predate his making of one (which I never saw personally). Unless he was the secret source from which Rob Boyle held the original file.

I'd be interested to know about bugs and errors. Note the index lists what is actually written in the book, even if it makes little sense, unless there was an obvious contradiction to address. HQ mentions was sometimes based on Real Life corporation. All of this, of course, cannot account for books who were published after the index was made.

[Sascha Morlok]

I don't see how it could include bugs and errors "of the Meier's version" since it would predate his making of one (which I never saw personally). Unless he was the secret source from which Rob Boyle held the original file.

I meant it that way, that Meier stated his version (AFAIK) on the original one and so took over the bugs, besides there was a newer version (which again had the same bugs).

I'd be interested to know about bugs and errors. Note the index lists what is actually written in the book, even if it makes little sense, unless there was an obvious contradiction to address. HQ mentions was sometimes based on Real Life corporation. All of this, of course, cannot account for books who were published after the index was made.

Some little tweaks here and there, correcting page numbers or corporate status (like the one of Saab, mentioned above), added some missing corporations, removed some that weren't coronations (like "Schreiber, Kimoto, Pünder & Partner Rechtsanwalts- und Steuerberater-GmbH", were you made a subsidiary out of every name (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ), removed some doubles, corrected some sources, page numbers, etc.

[binarywraith]

We really need to make a US-to-Germany channel for discussion. In one of those Things, we'd have to hold it in English, since I don't think anyone on teh US side knows a lick of German. Yes, I know exactly what commentary is now in peoples' heads. Don't get me started on US linguistic programs and expectations. We'll be here for a *while*.

I am actually appalled that you (the greater 'you' as in 'the writing team') don't already have this in a day and age where it takes ten seconds to email someone, and real-time video/voice/text chat is ubiquitous.

[Wakshaani]

I am actually appalled that you (the greater 'you' as in 'the writing team') don't already have this in a day and age where it takes ten seconds to email someone, and real-time video/voice/text chat is ubiquitous.

They do upstairs, so that the leads can stay in contact and handle big stuff. The Freelancers are just typewriters for hire. That kind of thing is technically above our pay grade. Having access to financials ia *useful* for Engineering, so that you can know what level of pricing your design can handle, but as long as the guys upstairs give you a target, you don't really need to know. Same thing here: We don't *have* to know this, but it'd be handy.

[Blade]

But Engineering in one site needs to be able to communicate with Engineering from the other site.

[Sengir]

We really need to make a US-to-Germany channel for discussion. In one of those Things, we'd have to hold it in English, since I don't think anyone on teh US side knows a lick of German.

Germans are in the same boat as the Japanese: We are fully aware that our language is useless on an international level, hence speaking at least some English is practically mandatory (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I still wouldn't suggest real-time communications, though. Finding a common time slot across 9 hours of time difference just doesn't work well, trust me.

[Sascha Morlok]

Language should not be a barrier, as all authors should be able to write and talk at a decent level of english. The problem is to find a suitable platform. And to accomplish that, someone has to do things. But that's to much for a a public discussion.

[Wakshaani]

Language should not be a barrier, as all authors should be able to write and talk at a decent level of english. The problem is to find a suitable platform. And to accomplish that, someone has to do things. But that's to much for a a public discussion.

Indeed. About to go to teh day job, but I'll follow up thsi conversation via channels soon.

[Sengir]

Indeed. About to go to teh day job, but I'll follow up thsi conversation via channels soon.

See, I just went home. So when you're on a conference in Vegas, the people in Berlin who filed the ticket will have long gone home by the time their issue gets handed through to level 3...