Weapon laws in the Sixth World, What's legal and what's not? Options

[Zednark]

Okay, so I love Shadowrun. But it has flaws. One of those flaws is that gun laws are nonsensical. Each gun is either R or F, but it's not clear why a gun should be one or the other. It kinda implies that for every single gun that hits the market, the UCAS Congress just kinda arbitrarily decides whether it'll be legal or not. That's nuts, so here are some rules:

- Single Shot or Semi Auto guns, with the exception of heavy weapons and guns with prohibited/restricted equipment as standard, require only a General Weapons Permit, easily acquired legally with a SIN check.

- Burst Fire and Full Auto guns require a Automatic Weapons permit, in addition to any permits for gear affixed to them. This is not difficult to acquire, but not easy either. Must have a valid reason, but the reason can be as simple as living in a dangerous area such as Redmond. More commonly issued to bounty hunters, security men, etc.

- Heavy weapons, which include but are not limited to MGs, flamethrowers, grenade launchers, grenades, assault cannons and rocket launchers, are straight up illegal, and no amount of licenses will make them permissible. This also includes guns which have such things as underbarrel weapons, such as the Ares Alpha. Civilian models of those guns are available at gamemaster's discretion, and a reduced price. Guns with legal weapons affixed to them are not subject to this law. Excepted are nonlethal weapons, such as flash bangs and smoke grenades, as those are Restricted instead, and require a general weapons permit.

- Silencers are illegal, as are any weapons that use them.

- Melee weapons are 100% legal, unless they use monofilament, in which case they are Forbidden. The exception to this is things that are used as tools, such as a monofilament chainsaw. Those are Restricted, and require a license for the appropriate trade (such as a Carpenter's license).

- Crossbows require a General Weapons Permit if they are Heavy, and the same applies to bows of Rating 7 or higher.

- Cyberweapons are straight up illegal, regardless of whether they are ranged or melee.

- Tasers are 100% legal, and are often even sold in regular stores.

- Ammo specifically designed to deal extra tissue damage or have better armor penetration is illegal, with the exception of shotgun shot. This applies to non-shotgun flechette ammo. Legal ammo still needs a General Weapons Permit, with the exception of Stun damage ammunition, which does not require a permit, despite needing a permit to have something to fire it in.

- Vehicle mounted weapons are illegal.

- Weapons that break down into parts are illegal.

Hopefully that covers everything. Thoughts?

[ShadowDragon8685]

Okay, so I love Shadowrun. But it has flaws. One of those flaws is that gun laws are nonsensical. Each gun is either R or F, but it's not clear why a gun should be one or the other. It kinda implies that for every single gun that hits the market, the UCAS Congress just kinda arbitrarily decides whether it'll be legal or not. That's nuts, ...

And yet, that is very much how things work in the modern U.S. of A, too. The various assault weapon bills ban weapons for having various safety, ergonomic, and aesthetic features that make a gun look more intimidating or safer and easier for the shooter to operate, but do absolutely jack shit to enhance its lethality.

Seriously, the same hunting rifle can be either a legal weapon or a "semi-automatic assault rifle" depending on whether it has wooden furniture and an archaic grip, or composite furniture and a pistol grip.

[Wakshaani]

There's a small nugget about a bill in teh UCAS to more formalize wepon laws, by the by. It's a tricky subject since passions about guns is *kind of* big for people.

What you had, back in the last days of the US, was the loss of huge chunks of terrain to the NAN and a war on US soil for the first time in, what, 120 years, give or take? When teh US absorbed Canada, the south saw the new restrictive gunlaws and advanced social programs as being the next step, so bailed to make the CAS.

If you look at today's world, chop off the midwest and the South, then add Canada, you can see that gun laws would likely be much more restrictive than what the US of today has, while the laws in teh CAS would be less than today. This is made more complex by the existance of hostile powers (the NAN and, to an extent, the CAS and UCAS with one another), which lead to lighter federal restrictions so that states could more accurately handle things based off their situation. IE, if you had a hot border, you'd want more guns around. If you were in the safety of, say, New York, less so. (This is a general handwave. I know Vermont has liberty issues and so on, but work with me here.)

As we roll into 2078, teh UCAS has actually had a long period of peace, with a few minor blips (Boston today, CHicago 'yesterday', and the failed coup in between) in a long row of peace. Those prevaling gun regulation tendancies are starting to turn up more, while teh CAS remains much looser about things. Seattle's enjoyed the ability to set their own gun laws, due to the general UCAS "Let the states handle it" philosophy, but, that could change in the future.

*IF* it does, expect a more detailed list of what's legal, what isn't, and how people are working around those laws.

(For teh record, teh Catalyst crew has several Southerners on board, as well as a gun-lovin' Canadian. Please don't think of this as any sort of anti-gun screed from teh creators! It'll really help unify the legalities in the future, however.)

[hermit]

the UCAS Congress just kinda arbitrarily decides whether it'll be legal or not. That's nuts, so here are some rules:

Or, you know, the ATF (I doubt the CAS regulate guns at all, except maybe by the buyer's race). Burdening parliament with micromanaging legislation to such a degree would indeed be madness, though.

Also, what ShadowDragon says about firearms regulation in the US. They are indeed regulated by their looks. And that makes just as much sense as SR's firearms' legal codes (which makes them actually far more realistic than a more gamist, streamlined and logical system).

What is broken is rules concerning licensing. Licenses for all kinds of things, from keeping rare iguana to stockpining heavy weapons, are the same price and have no fixed requirements (in fact, there just are no rules for getting them legally). If I was to make the firearms legality more gamist and less realistic, I'd start there and streamline the system, move away from the three tier "on sale everywhere" - "needs a license" - "possession is terrorism" system towards a 0 through 10 (or - (for legal) and A through J) system for different levels of license. Of course, that would require all authors to be briefed on this and include conchise and easy rules for which license covers what, which would defintily be the hard part.

[Wakshaani]

Ayup. Getting everyone onboard would be tricky, but once it existed and everyone was briefed on it, it'd start to click. And, yeah, you need way more variety than the A, B, or C we have now. 1-12 would probably be best, but it wouldn't be *terribly* hard to break it down into 1-6, like most things we have, and you could tie that kind of legality into the license itself, honestly. The scale would go up each "Legality rating". so, rather than X * 100, you'd get a Rating 1 certification only being 20 Nuyen or so, while a Rating 3 might be a grand and a Rating 5 be something like 50,000. (Off the cuff numbers, mind you) ... sort of like how today it isn't *illegal* to own a fully-automatic weapon, but to buy one, you're looking at a five-figure fee.

Of cours, the downside of that is that you then have to go back and comb over allllll the things, and people would, you know, curl up into a ball and weep.

[Stahlseele]

Anybody still remember the legality system of SR3?

[hermit]

Of cours, the downside of that is that you then have to go back and comb over allllll the things, and people would, you know, curl up into a ball and weep.

Well, could you put this on the list for a possible SR5A, together with wifi boni that are not totally broken and brand names for everything (like it should have been for vehicles in Rigger 5 but was too rushed)? Especially the brand names. For all items in all books, cyberware, medkits, ammo, datacips, all the things need brand names. And for the named ones, alternative brands. I'd be such a happy panda. I think that'd be up your alley too.

Also, in review news, caught a bit of the flu but will put out a new one tomorrow, I think.

[Wakshaani]

Oh geeze, I'll stick brand names on everything for free. I LIVE for that stuff.

[FriendoftheDork]

I agree that the current (and SR4) system for legality is nonsense and far too simplified. I think they just wanted to simplify things for the gun-running shadowrunner crews, so that they could use normal weapons as long as they paid for good fake sins and fake licenses for their weapons, and then forget about stuff, while still keeping obviously military weapons and convenient silencers out of the hands of day-to-day shadowrunners and legwork situations.

I'd look into the SR3 system and rebuild it to suit SR5 rules.

[Sengir]

- Cyberweapons are straight up illegal, regardless of whether they are ranged or melee.

That sounds a bit harsh on sams, how about a separate license for sword canes, implant weapons, and other hidden melee weapons?

[Zednark]

That sounds a bit harsh on sams, how about a separate license for sword canes, implant weapons, and other hidden melee weapons?

Keep in mind cyberweapons are incredibly easy to conceal, at -8 in 5e. By comparison, RFID tags are -6 and holdout pistols are -4. Plus they're likely made with MAD-defeating components, so there'd need to be a cyberware scanner to detect them at all. And then, if they're in a cyberarm they blend in with other components. You don't need a license for what the cops are never gonna find.

Of course, if you're running a game where cyberweapons are more detectable, then more lenient rules would be best.

[Stahlseele]

The SR3 Legality System was the most fleshed out in any SR Version.
Also hellishly complicated(of course, it's SR3 after all) and would be very punishing for the mundanes with cyberware scanners being everywhere . .

[Sengir]

Keep in mind cyberweapons are incredibly easy to conceal, at -8 in 5e. By comparison, RFID tags are -6 and holdout pistols are -4. Plus they're likely made with MAD-defeating components, so there'd need to be a cyberware scanner to detect them at all. And then, if they're in a cyberarm they blend in with other components. You don't need a license for what the cops are never gonna find.

They are indeed easy to conceal when not in use, but it sucks to have a weapon you can't use even in otherwise legal situations without committing a crime...and unlike a gun, you can't even toss them into the nearest lake (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Also, I think hand razors make great utility knives, while bodyguards and other private security personnel (people who would have a license but are not "official" enough to qualify for military gear) can certainly use such blades in a pinch.


And since Stahlseele keeps shilling SR3, I also think it had a couple of good points (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
a) Categorizing gear into different "license sets", what the OP is also doing. I don't think just grading licenses by their "hardness" works well, there should be a difference between a license for drugs and a license for rifles.
b) The "Street Index" to represent different cost on the street as opposed to a legal purchase. The cost multiplier was troublesome, but IMO the general idea of differentiating between legal and illegal availability was a good thought.

For example, clinical-grade diamorphine (Heroin) is available on order with the correct license. If you wanted to get comparable quality on the street, you would need to find somebody who has good sources and who seems trustworthy enough to not cut it anyway -- and of course pay a lot more.

But there also are cases where the illegal way is actually easier: Most media on the German "Index" is theoretically available for everybody 18 or over, but you cannot order those items via mail and large stores typically neither stock nor order them, so you need to find a store. Meanwhile, finding a pirated copy of Battle Royale online is just a trivial as finding anything else. So you have an items that's neither R nor F (unless you consider proof of age a license), but still needs some legwork to obtain legally, whereas illegal availability would be 0 or 1, depending or where you start.

[FriendoftheDork]

I had a long hard look at the SR3 system, and reread the rules probably 4-5 times to properly understand them. The baseline is that the legality system is essentially the same as in SR4/5:
Items are either LEGAL, can be licenced (same as Restricted, marked P for Permit), or is outright illegal for civillians. The difference lies in which items have permits, and the chance of a sec. guard or cop bothering you about it. I will avoid listing numbers and tables here for copyright reasons.

1. All fully automatics except machine pistols are forbidden. Yes, that means all SMGs and all Assault rifles.

2. All melee weapons are forbidden! Yes, even a baseball bat is forbidden if the cop in question identifies it as a lethal weapon. You can't get a permit for a Katana.

3. All items are rated on the chance of a cop knowing it is forbidden - yes it's not about the law, but the knowledge skill of the cop. The higher the number, the higher the difficulty. Obvious military hardware like missile launchers generally have the lowest level, and thus almost automatic for cops to identify as illegal. The chance of the cop knowing about a baseball bat being illegal is fairly low.

4. In addition, all items have a letter detailing the consequence of being caught with one, from a minor fine of a hundred nuyens to a big fine or prison sentence. Just having a knife on you is a nuisance to a shadowrunner (assuming his fake SIN checks out), but being caught with a military weapon or high-force spririt is... just don't get caught.

Also, I believe someone asked for the chance of obtaining permits/licences legally. You can, the difficulty is based on the item's availability (slightly higher), and the cost is generally 5-10% of item cost. But the licence is permanently linked to a SIN, real or false. Using a fake SIN to get a real licence requires a fairly difficult SIN verification check, but quite possible for the better fake SINs. If it fails however, the fake SIN (which is expensive) is lost, so far less risky to buy a fake licence.

So, what can we learn or adapt for SR4/5? The changes is what can be licenced is a pretty big thing IMO, having only pistols, rifles and shotguns as legal options means you can't easily carry automatics on a daily basis, meaning Pistol skill becomes more useful. It might also be a setting change, that gun laws became more lax in the 2070s, and permits for melee weapons were made. Real life US weapons laws are absurdly complex and strange, and it is quite possible in some areas to have consequences for carrying a knife of a certain length in public, while other places lets you legally own and use a heavy machine-gun.

If you want, you could make your own system of how obviously illegal some items are, setting a threshold for cops to harass you based on weapon classes. Or you could just assume they will harass you if you have an assault rifle in a high-security neighborhood yet ignore you in the barrens.

I'm personally going to adapt the more restrictive rules of weapons as it fits my campaign, but Zednark's suggestions and current rules (about the same I'd say) should work well for most games.

[hermit]

Actually, while very complex, that is a much better system thn SR4/5's binary legality system, which leads to weirdness like described above. I'm particularly partial to the dependency on the cop's knowledge of weapons legislation.

Real life US weapons laws are absurdly complex and strange, and it is quite possible in some areas to have consequences for carrying a knife of a certain length in public, while other places lets you legally own and use a heavy machine-gun.

It might well be the same juristiction, actually.

[binarywraith]

Actually, while very complex, that is a much better system thn SR4/5's binary legality system, which leads to weirdness like described above. I'm particularly partial to the dependency on the cop's knowledge of weapons legislation.


It might well be the same juristiction, actually.

Yeah, that was the good part about SR3. Low-level security with a professional skill of 3? Shit, sure, you can totally get a permit for that, just don't point it at anybody.

Plus while those rules were complicated as hell, you very rarely had to interact with them because most runners are smart enough not to walk up to a cop with a Panther Cannon painted up to look like a giant phallus and go "Sup Piggy?" They usually served as a way to heighten drama on infiltrations and give the players a good idea of what they can get away with sneaking into a place.

[Mantis]

Yeah I actually preferred those rules to SR4/5 legality. Yeah, the newer system is simpler but some things need some complexity and this is an area where I feel it benefited from that complexity. I think I liked the feel it gave those rules. It helped that most of the location books offered different values/fines/prison sentences from the Seattle base line too. Since it went by class of thing (blades, pistols, etc) it was easy to add a chart to a new book with the differences rather than the current system which would require you to list all the gear again with the changed legality codes. That is not likely to happen.

[Wounded Ronin]

They should have just made the legality rules a joke lampooning the US assault weapons ban. Basically, semi auto polymer stuff with bayonet lugs and pistol grips are illegal, but semi auto stuff that looks a little old fashioned with wood furniture is legal. And there would be little statistical difference between these types of weapons. And they would likewise be almost the same as the full auto capable versions that require special licensing, just without the full auto fire modes. I guess there could be house rules for bump firing a semi auto weapon and for attempting to suppress by firing rapidly in semi auto mode.

[binarywraith]

The SR3 Legality System was the most fleshed out in any SR Version.
Also hellishly complicated(of course, it's SR3 after all) and would be very punishing for the mundanes with cyberware scanners being everywhere . .

That's the other thing. The whole security panopticon bullshit wasn't around then. Cyber ware scanners were something you might run into in major Corp sites or prisons, but they weren't something you had to walk through to get into Stuffer Shack to pick up your 3am soykaff and nerps fix.

[Stahlseele]

That's the other thing. The whole security panopticon bullshit wasn't around then. Cyber ware scanners were something you might run into in major Corp sites or prisons, but they weren't something you had to walk through to get into Stuffer Shack to pick up your 3am soykaff and nerps fix.

Yeah, shadowrun became decidedly nore adept/mage run at the end of SR3 and even more so with SR4 . .

[FriendoftheDork]

That's the other thing. The whole security panopticon bullshit wasn't around then. Cyber ware scanners were something you might run into in major Corp sites or prisons, but they weren't something you had to walk through to get into Stuffer Shack to pick up your 3am soykaff and nerps fix.

Main problem IMO is availablity and pricing changes - they thought it would make sense to make technology cheaper and more common, but in doing so they opened up a can of worms as anyone out there can afford a cyberware scanner if he wants to, SIN verification systems are cheap, cameras are super cheap and ubiquitous, and still somehow shadowrunners are supposed to get away with stuff. The only way they can is to hack everything, as everything is wireless. SR 4 was what really changed this, and SR 5 is not much different despite "decks".

Exactly how strict weapon laws you would want is dependent on your own preference - shadowrun works as well with dystopian police state stuff where only security forces are allowed guns at all, but shadowrunners will still get by with fake licences (sure, I'm an undercover Knight Errant operative, I got a licence for this cybergun), assuming such exists. However, that does not really fit well with the corporate dystopia presented, where greed rather than despotism rules. A large and fairly open weapon market is good for business, if you are Ares.

[hermit]

still somehow shadowrunners are supposed to get away with stuff.

Considering that, in a city laced with cameras, wearing a hat and fake glasses can confuse investigators so badly, so you can hide literally next doof from them for weeks, just having cameras doesn't really help against terrorism-type crime (which is what most Shadowruns come down to). Unless you have competent authorities and shared databases, it won't do zip. And that's the situation we have in Shadowrun.

Also, weren't StufferShack cyberware scanners in the NAGRL?

[binarywraith]

Considering that, in a city laced with cameras, wearing a hat and fake glasses can confuse investigators so badly, so you can hide literally next doof from them for weeks, just having cameras doesn't really help against terrorism-type crime (which is what most Shadowruns come down to). Unless you have competent authorities and shared databases, it won't do zip. And that's the situation we have in Shadowrun.

Also, weren't StufferShack cyberware scanners in the NAGRL?

Depends on what level of data balkanization you want to ascribe to the SR world. I rather prefer to think it works the way you're suggesting, but on the other hand the existence and portrayal of GOD in SR5 says that it is clearly otherwise.

[hermit]

Yes, that's one of the greater problems I have with SR5. If the balkanization is like in Belgium, though ... well, a hat and fake glasses. If he'd also worn a fake moustache and a cheap wig, they'd probably never have gotten him.

[FriendoftheDork]

Considering that, in a city laced with cameras, wearing a hat and fake glasses can confuse investigators so badly, so you can hide literally next doof from them for weeks, just having cameras doesn't really help against terrorism-type crime (which is what most Shadowruns come down to). Unless you have competent authorities and shared databases, it won't do zip. And that's the situation we have in Shadowrun.

Also, weren't StufferShack cyberware scanners in the NAGRL?

Our mass surveillance cameras today are not very effective - many don't work at all, or only give bad quality footage - I would think cameras in 2075 would be at least the level of the best we have today, and same with facial recognition programs.