Vintage Firearms stats Options

[Ryusukanku]

Working on a game where the group will come across a gun-nut's private "museum vault".

This guy will have specialized in the weapons of the 40's and 50's including but not limited to firearms used in WW2.

Granted this doesn't mean I need every possible weapon produced at the time (I mean seriously... just look at all the firearms running around during WW2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commo...fantry_weapons)
but I was hoping some people may have game stats for some of the more popular ones we see in movies and video games (Because you KNOW they'll be saying "Dibs on the Tommy Gun!" or "Are there any M1918's in here?"

I know I'd be better off thinking of the money they could get selling them but you know runners... give them a gun and they'll shoot it.

Thanks everyone.

[Mantis]

Gun Haven 1 and 3 both have vintage firearms in them. Gun Haven 3 has stats for both 4th ed and 5th ed versions of the weapons. I'd suggest starting there and using those as a baseline.

[Zednark]

As a note, I think most "Heavy Pistols" are probably in the 10mm-.357 Magnum range, higher for specialty guns. Holdouts are .38 Special, .380 Auto and .32 ACP, and anything smaller than that as well. Light Pistols are what's in between, so mainly 9mm (both Parabellum and the later Makarov) and .45 ACP, and maybe some older calibers as well. This will work for most handguns.

For rifles, outside the early assault rifles like the Stg-44 or AK-47, calibers are high for modern standards. .30-06 is slightly heavier than 7.62 NATO, for instance. After all, since cartridges were often designed for bolt action rifles, you wanted each shot to count. So Sporting Rifle or Sniper Rifle damages are a better bet than Assault Rifle damages. They also got good range, so I'd say Sporting Rifle.

Ammunition is going to be the kicker. Ammunition in real life for calibers like .455 Webley or 7.7mm Arisaka is just plain rare. Thankfully, cased ammunition doesn't spoil, so old WW2 milsurp is fine, but I think that stuff is mostly gone today, let alone in 2075. If this gun nut has ammo, it'll probably only last the runners a week.

Make sure that unless these guns are in mint (And I'm talking never used and cared for regularly) condition, they jam frequently. Decrease ones needed for glitches on most tests, and roll a d6 to determine how many shots you get off in autofire before a jam. These are ancient weapons. Imagine firing a pistol made in 1905 today.

While most calibers convert fine, for 7.62 Tokarev I'd treat it as a Heavy Pistol, but decrease damage by 1 and increase AP by 1*. It's a small, fast round. This assumes standard ball, of course. Any gun nuts can correct me on this, but I did research so I could convert it to Cyberpunk, so I think I can talk.

Give them a Gyrojet, and make it unable to hit anything, just like in real life.

Early flechette weapons were being made in the 50's, to fight the Soviets in space. Having an early fletcher pistol might be interesting, even though Shadowrun has no idea how flechettes work.

*I'm assuming 5e for this. Earlier editions might fare worse for this.

[Glyph]

Since Shadowrun assumes an ongoing race between ammo and armor, I would probably just take the stats for a base light pistol, heavy pistol, rifle, etc. and decrease both damage and accuracy by one. Save your efforts for the fluff details of describing these vintage firearms; don't waste too much time fiddling with the rules side of things.

[Wounded Ronin]

I used to stat up vintage firearms all the time when I GMed SR3 because I love the rugged simplicity and power of classic firearms.

Basically, what I used to do was give old battle rifles (such as a M14, for example) damage codes and ranges equivalent to "sporting rifles", but then say that they had double uncompensated recoil, and on top of that they tended to have limited or no recoil compensation. The idea was that the "assault rifles" of the SR era were all running something like 5.56 NATO, and hence they would be weaker in terms of trauma caused per hit than mondo World War II style battle rifles.

So basically, they could tear shit up on full auto mode, but they kicked like a mule. If you took the time to aim and stack modifiers in your favor, judicious use of the full auto mode could cut most opponents down to size. I remember reading a Vietnam War memoir, "Green Knight, Red Morning (or Mourning?)" that stated that if you dumped 20 rounds from a M14 into someone at point blank range on full auto mode you could pretty much saw them in half.

On the other hand, many of the old military pistols are kind of weak by today's standards, i.e. single stack 9mm parabellum FMJ type sidearms. Also, apparently .25 caliber handguns were generally popular in Europe at the time as well. So I tended to make most handguns from the era light pistols, especially stuff like 8mm nambu pistols. I did have an exception where a 1911 would be similar to a heavy pistol, however.

Thompson submachineguns were like submachineguns with 9M base damage code, however they also had double uncompensated recoil. I think this was a really fun way to handle these things. It made for really enjoyable gameplay because there was kind of a risk-reward of super powerful hits on full auto versus a high chance of totally whiffing. I felt there was something viscerally ubermenschian about taking down a cybernetic enemy from the future with a hard-kicking retro wood and steel tool firing overpowered cartridges.

Stuff like Mosin Nagant bolt action rifles with big powerful cartridges like 7.62x54r could have even higher damage codes, more like sniper rifle codes, although obviously their rate of fire would be low. For bolt action, I didn't like to simply say it was SS. I preferred to have firing be a Simple Action, and working the bolt be a Simple Action. I felt this facilitated the player working in multiple Take Aim actions before taking the big all-or-nothing shot. I felt it tended to be dramatic and again emphasize the gravitas and Zen-like mental focus needed to bring a classic bolt action rifle into a firefight.

If you do these things I think your game will be amazing. I have had so many fun campaigns over the years that included cameos by hyper-masculine vintage weapons of yore. In a world of smartlinks and spamming with small caliber logistics-friendly cartridges, bringing deliberate, hard-hitting, do or die marksmanship into a firefight is just as appropriately Shadowrun as is bringing a katana to a firefight.

[Zednark]

I used to stat up vintage firearms all the time when I GMed SR3 because I love the rugged simplicity and power of classic firearms.

Basically, what I used to do was give old battle rifles (such as a M14, for example) damage codes and ranges equivalent to "sporting rifles", but then say that they had double uncompensated recoil, and on top of that they tended to have limited or no recoil compensation. The idea was that the "assault rifles" of the SR era were all running something like 5.56 NATO, and hence they would be weaker in terms of trauma caused per hit than mondo World War II style battle rifles.

So basically, they could tear shit up on full auto mode, but they kicked like a mule. If you took the time to aim and stack modifiers in your favor, judicious use of the full auto mode could cut most opponents down to size. I remember reading a Vietnam War memoir, "Green Knight, Red Morning (or Mourning?)" that stated that if you dumped 20 rounds from a M14 into someone at point blank range on full auto mode you could pretty much saw them in half.

On the other hand, many of the old military pistols are kind of weak by today's standards, i.e. single stack 9mm parabellum FMJ type sidearms. Also, apparently .25 caliber handguns were generally popular in Europe at the time as well. So I tended to make most handguns from the era light pistols, especially stuff like 8mm nambu pistols. I did have an exception where a 1911 would be similar to a heavy pistol, however.

Thompson submachineguns were like submachineguns with 9M base damage code, however they also had double uncompensated recoil. I think this was a really fun way to handle these things. It made for really enjoyable gameplay because there was kind of a risk-reward of super powerful hits on full auto versus a high chance of totally whiffing. I felt there was something viscerally ubermenschian about taking down a cybernetic enemy from the future with a hard-kicking retro wood and steel tool firing overpowered cartridges.

Stuff like Mosin Nagant bolt action rifles with big powerful cartridges like 7.62x54r could have even higher damage codes, more like sniper rifle codes, although obviously their rate of fire would be low. For bolt action, I didn't like to simply say it was SS. I preferred to have firing be a Simple Action, and working the bolt be a Simple Action. I felt this facilitated the player working in multiple Take Aim actions before taking the big all-or-nothing shot. I felt it tended to be dramatic and again emphasize the gravitas and Zen-like mental focus needed to bring a classic bolt action rifle into a firefight.

If you do these things I think your game will be amazing. I have had so many fun campaigns over the years that included cameos by hyper-masculine vintage weapons of yore. In a world of smartlinks and spamming with small caliber logistics-friendly cartridges, bringing deliberate, hard-hitting, do or die marksmanship into a firefight is just as appropriately Shadowrun as is bringing a katana to a firefight.

While I agree with most of these rules, the Thompson is HUGE for SMG standards. Don't double recoil, increase AP to be on par with Heavy Pistols, and make it have concealability on par with an assault rifle. A tommygun is about the size of an M4, and is also heavier. Hell, I might even give it a few points of recoil comp just for its weight. SMGs in Shadowrun are assumed to be MP5 size, not carbine size.

[Wounded Ronin]

While I agree with most of these rules, the Thompson is HUGE for SMG standards. Don't double recoil, increase AP to be on par with Heavy Pistols, and make it have concealability on par with an assault rifle. A tommygun is about the size of an M4, and is also heavier. Hell, I might even give it a few points of recoil comp just for its weight. SMGs in Shadowrun are assumed to be MP5 size, not carbine size.

That's a good idea as well, and it would make running around with the Thompson a lot of fun.

[Zednark]

That's a good idea as well, and it would make running around with the Thompson a lot of fun.

Oh, certainly. Something to research is whether .45 ACP is subsonic in a Thompson barrel. If it is, you've found the Tommygun's niche: a gun with capabilities in between a SMG and an assault rifle, that when silenced make essentially no noise.

As for finding one, the plans would be open source by 2050. Expect caseless updates, cheaply made knockoffs, local gunsmiths building them new, et cetera. For a modern Tommygun, expect a synthetic or faux wood furniture, possible caseless refits (depending on how easy it is to do) and ads with pseudo-20's gangsters wielding them.

[Wakshaani]

Getting the stats for firearms of olde isn't that hard, but it comes with a twist.

For one, starting around 2040, firearm caliber went up just a tad. 10mm replaced 9mm, and 11 is hardly unheard of. So, you'll want to adjust older firearms down by 1 damage code to take that into consideration. (And, of course, getting bullets will be a bear.)

Next is the relative advances in technology... lighter materials, computer-assisted aiming, and so on, that are second-nature to a modern shooter. as such, you'll probably want to drop Accuracy by 1.

Lastly, and the biggie, is armor penetration. SOTA advances in armor, and armor-piercing, tech over the years has made the biggest impact here. For a rough guide, assume that every ten years, or twenty if you're being nice, behind the curve a gun is, reduce the AP by 1... and, yes, this means that a -1 AP can turn into a +1, +2, or even worse over time. Bullets from the 1970's just don't do diddly to modern armor thanks to SOTA advances in ceramics and what have you.

So, general rule of thumb:

-1 Acc
-1 Pow
+0 to +6 AP

On the plus side, they're all unhackable. You take the good, you take the bad...

[Zednark]

Getting the stats for firearms of olde isn't that hard, but it comes with a twist.

For one, starting around 2040, firearm caliber went up just a tad. 10mm replaced 9mm, and 11 is hardly unheard of. So, you'll want to adjust older firearms down by 1 damage code to take that into consideration. (And, of course, getting bullets will be a bear.)

Next is the relative advances in technology... lighter materials, computer-assisted aiming, and so on, that are second-nature to a modern shooter. as such, you'll probably want to drop Accuracy by 1.

Lastly, and the biggie, is armor penetration. SOTA advances in armor, and armor-piercing, tech over the years has made the biggest impact here. For a rough guide, assume that every ten years, or twenty if you're being nice, behind the curve a gun is, reduce the AP by 1... and, yes, this means that a -1 AP can turn into a +1, +2, or even worse over time. Bullets from the 1970's just don't do diddly to modern armor thanks to SOTA advances in ceramics and what have you.

So, general rule of thumb:

-1 Acc
-1 Pow
+0 to +6 AP

On the plus side, they're all unhackable. You take the good, you take the bad...

I strongly disagree with this. The last major pistol improvement, double stacked magazines, happened 81 years ago with the Browning Hi Power. There's no reason to assume that better guns exist in the future, simply because there aren't new designs. Even caseless ammo, a SR trademark, was invented back in the 80's, and has drawbacks compared to cased. Not to mention any improvements in ammo are carried over to older firearms that fire them.

And with handguns? There's a hard limit of bullet size when the magazine is in the grip. Too large, and you end up with massive grips. The Desert Eagle .50 AE has grips that not everyone can hold, for example. So how's a goddamn elf or gnome going to hold them? There's no rules for minimum hand sizes. And how would you implement such a thing?

And assuming every 20 years for AP, that being a "generous" number, a M1 Garand would have around +4-5 AP, for THIRTY OUGHT FUCKING SIX. That's a sawn off shotgun firing shot AP. What are 2075 shotguns loading, graphene shot? That's absurd. Plus the Garand has actual stats (in GH3), stats mentioned in the fluff as being 100% the original design.

As for computer assisted aiming, that's a smartgun, not a standard gun.

[Wounded Ronin]

It is true that older firearms tend to have looser tolerances than modern ones. This is good in terms of ease of maintenance and insensitivity to dirt and environmental factors, but it does mean that accuracy at extremes will be less than in a modern, tight, fussy competition gun.

My solution is not to give a universal penalty to old guns, but instead adjust their range. You can either look up the effective ranges of the specific historical firearm in question, or can just adjust within the existing range system. So for example, vintage rifles could all use sport rifle ranges instead of sniper rifle ranges, even if they are scoped and would have been historical sniper rifles. All the pistols can use light pistol ranges instead of heavy pistol ranges.

[Wounded Ronin]

Getting the stats for firearms of olde isn't that hard, but it comes with a twist.

For one, starting around 2040, firearm caliber went up just a tad. 10mm replaced 9mm, and 11 is hardly unheard of. So, you'll want to adjust older firearms down by 1 damage code to take that into consideration. (And, of course, getting bullets will be a bear.)

Next is the relative advances in technology... lighter materials, computer-assisted aiming, and so on, that are second-nature to a modern shooter. as such, you'll probably want to drop Accuracy by 1.

Lastly, and the biggie, is armor penetration. SOTA advances in armor, and armor-piercing, tech over the years has made the biggest impact here. For a rough guide, assume that every ten years, or twenty if you're being nice, behind the curve a gun is, reduce the AP by 1... and, yes, this means that a -1 AP can turn into a +1, +2, or even worse over time. Bullets from the 1970's just don't do diddly to modern armor thanks to SOTA advances in ceramics and what have you.

So, general rule of thumb:

-1 Acc
-1 Pow
+0 to +6 AP

On the plus side, they're all unhackable. You take the good, you take the bad...

I don't know, man, as another poster said, .30-06 will still penetrate most armor today. If anything battle rifles have been getting less powerful since the World War II era for logistical reasons.

.45 ACP was used in military settings since 1911 or so and it is still considered one of the gold standard rounds in stopping power. It doesn't perform badly in any way compared to more modern rounds like .40 S&W. And the FBI actually backed off of using 10mm because it was too powerful and too hard to control.

There are some modern rounds like .357 sig that are supposed to be really excellent, but it's not like .45 ACP is now irrelevant because some police departments run with .357 sig.

It's also not hard to get old ammunition. Not really. You can always make your own. In Las Vegas, for example, there's a guy who comes out to the Crossroads of the West gun show and sells arisaka ammunition. If one individual wanted, say, 1000 arisaka cartridges, it probably wouldn't be a huge problem to get them. I can see it would be a problem if you needed a constant large supply, like if for some reason you were running a platoon that was using arisakas. But for one guy, any amount that he would use just wouldn't be that big of an amount.

The only thing I might do in terms of reducing the power would be if the person is using lead round nose (LRN) ammunition. In a military museum, I saw some military handgun cartridges from the Korean War that were LRN instead of FMJ. Also, according to Ayoob's book "Combat Handgunnery", there was a time when the old .38s carried by police were called "widowmakers" because they were loaded with .38 LRN and often did not "stop" the bad guy.

So, hypothetically, if the character only found a tin of LRN cartridges, those might be penalized in terms of armor penetration. But, the thing is, many old rifles and handguns can fire modern rounds, and even old surplus rounds are typically FMJ. So normally I wouldn't penalize.