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> Fifth Without Wireless Bonus/Bricking, So i'm tyring to give fifth a look with fresh eyes.
LurkerOutThere
post Apr 28 2016, 02:02 PM
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I'm trying to give Fifth another look. I liked a lot of the concepts and changes but the poor editing and 'ware hate put me off it. Does anyone have any experience with just house ruling ware wireless bonuses to be default and getting rid of or severely nerfing bricking? I feel like you'd have to significantly reduce the costs of cyberdecks and peripherals to make up for it but I'm mostly ok witht hat.

Any other thoughts on Fifth edition now that it's been out in the wild for several years?
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Zednark
post Apr 28 2016, 02:16 PM
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I'd say wireless bonueses should be on a case by vase basis. For example, a +1 dicepool with a smartgun isn't unbalanced, but having more than +4 Reaction from Reaction Enhancers + Wired Reflexes is.
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Stahlseele
post Apr 28 2016, 02:32 PM
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The +4 Reaction is not unbalanced either.
The wireless bonus stuff itself is stupid.
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Larsenex
post Apr 28 2016, 03:04 PM
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What are you referring to? What is the ware hate you are mentioning?

I am new to 5th and I am restarting a game. What is wireless that you are talking about?
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SpellBinder
post Apr 28 2016, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 28 2016, 07:32 AM) *
The +4 Reaction is not unbalanced either.
The wireless bonus stuff itself is stupid.

^ +1
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Medicineman
post Apr 28 2016, 03:19 PM
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@Stahlseele & Spellbinder

Zednark wrote MORE than +4
becausefrom the mystical power of WiFi you can thus get a +6REA Bonus and this is the only case of braking the +4 Cap that I know of
and yes thats a stupid exception ( it only exist so that the Chars make tehmselves vulnerable to a Decker Attack from the WiFi Matrix )

QUOTE
What is the ware hate you are mentioning?

I guess it's not a 'Ware hate but a WiFi hate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
theres a lot of Dumb WiFi Bonuses /boni just to lure the Char into the WiFi Trap (look up teh WiFi Bonus for Shuriken, Silencer, Diving equipment and many more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

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Mantis
post Apr 28 2016, 03:45 PM
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What we did with bricking was to have it force a shutdown on the gear in question for 2d6 minutes. That puts it out of action for the duration of most (all?) fights, which is pretty much the same mechanic as the default system but doesn't force a repair test of whatever. It means after the reboot you can still use your gear in the field.
For WiFi bonuses, we just ignored most of them and used the SR4 versions. As Medicineman points out, why the hell are there WiFi bonuses for things like the collapsible baton? Somehow it helps gravity extend the thing? Or on the Silencer? Whhhhy? How does your silencer magically know if someone heard the shot? How does that even work? Do they tweet it? "Hey just heard a silenced gun shot, must be runners in the..." erk, gasp (thud of body hitting the floor).
My favourite is stealth gear that, while it may help hide you physically, it loudly announces you are there on the matrix. Stealth foiled. Awesome. Yeah sign me right up.
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Iduno
post Apr 28 2016, 05:26 PM
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The only other problem I have heard of is missing gear. It sounds like it's being fixed by adding dozens of pdf-only splat books, but that takes more time to publish and the information is spread out over books you may not have, and can't use without a computer with a large enough screen to read the rules (can be a problem because hardware is all landscape, and software is all portrait).

Not much of a complaint, but something to be aware of as long as you did ask.
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Ixal
post Apr 28 2016, 09:14 PM
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QUOTE (Medicineman @ Apr 28 2016, 03:19 PM) *
theres a lot of Dumb WiFi Bonuses /boni just to lure the Char into the WiFi Trap (look up teh WiFi Bonus for Shuriken, Silencer, Diving equipment and many more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )


Whats wrong with the Diving Gear?
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Sendaz
post Apr 28 2016, 10:40 PM
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Check out the rules on wifi signal underwater,
Page 231 looking at the table there, for every 1cm of sea water or 10cm of Fresh Water Noise is increased by 1.

Page 421: If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the itemís Device Rating, not including distance,
the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality.

So if you go a diving deep pretty much any wireless bonus is lost, which they do mention on diving gear, but consider even something like an internal airtank is supposed to lose it's bonus when underwater, even though does it really take the whole Matrix to figure out what your remaining air time is?
pg 455 Internal Air tank Wireless: Activating or de-activating the tank is a Free Action. Youíre always aware of the tankís exact air level and purity.

Honestly a lot of the wifi bonuses should have been PAN bonuses while other things like the medkit really do benefit from the wifi connection to the Matrix to get the most up to date data for patching you back together.
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Ixal
post Apr 28 2016, 11:21 PM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Apr 28 2016, 10:40 PM) *
Check out the rules on wifi signal underwater,
Page 231 looking at the table there, for every 1cm of sea water or 10cm of Fresh Water Noise is increased by 1.

Page 421: If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the item’s Device Rating, not including distance,
the item temporarily loses its wireless functionality.

So if you go a diving deep pretty much any wireless bonus is lost, which they do mention on diving gear, but consider even something like an internal airtank is supposed to lose it's bonus when underwater, even though does it really take the whole Matrix to figure out what your remaining air time is?
pg 455 Internal Air tank Wireless: Activating or de-activating the tank is a Free Action. You’re always aware of the tank’s exact air level and purity.

Honestly a lot of the wifi bonuses should have been PAN bonuses while other things like the medkit really do benefit from the wifi connection to the Matrix to get the most up to date data for patching you back together.


A internal air tank can be used in more situations than just under water. During gas attacks or during a fire with lots of smoke, high altitude, being trapped with your air running out, space, etc.
And how should the tank in your lung tell you how much air it has? Sure you can add some more wires from it to your brain, but that is covered by the router. But for the normal user the tank broadcasts its status wirelessly (I personally don't see "wireless" only as connection to the matrix but as any wireless signal going in and out which means it can be hacked). I don't see whats the problem with the tank having a wireless bonus is. Don't forget that not all cyberware are made with runners in mind. There is also a lot of civilian cyberware where comfort and ease of use is more important than security.
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KCKitsune
post Apr 29 2016, 12:47 AM
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QUOTE (Ixal @ Apr 28 2016, 07:21 PM) *
A internal air tank can be used in more situations than just under water. During gas attacks or during a fire with lots of smoke, high altitude, being trapped with your air running out, space, etc.
And how should the tank in your lung tell you how much air it has? Sure you can add some more wires from it to your brain, but that is covered by the router. But for the normal user the tank broadcasts its status wirelessly (I personally don't see "wireless" only as connection to the matrix but as any wireless signal going in and out which means it can be hacked). I don't see whats the problem with the tank having a wireless bonus is. Don't forget that not all cyberware are made with runners in mind. There is also a lot of civilian cyberware where comfort and ease of use is more important than security.


@Ixal, are you telling me to gain the benefits of having my air tank tell me how much air is left I have to spend another half point of Essence? Really?!?

@Everyone: Honestly the Internal router should not be a piece of cyberware... it should be fragging STANDARD ISSUE when you get ANY cyber. I mean ANY AT ALL! No, the level of augmentation hate by the staff in 5th edition is horrific. They're pushing people more and more to MagicRun. Also the payouts for Shadowrun are disgustingly paltry verses the level of skill/augmentation/magic ability needed to perform some of the jobs these people would do.
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Glyph
post Apr 29 2016, 02:03 AM
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Wireless bonuses were horribly implemented, basically giving augmented characters a no-win choice between gimped functionality for their augmentations, or being vulnerable to an attack from an unseen vector that could potentially blind or paralyze them. I would reduce the effectiveness of bricking as proposed above. Also, I would make the wireless "bonuses" standard for most gear, only keeping it for things that would benefit from being plugged into an informational database, or for communication between devices not linked by DNI or skinlink (which I would bring back, although I might make it more expensive).

To give the deckers more to do, take the P-Tac from Run & Gun pgs. 104-105. Lower the Availability by 12 and the cost by two decimal places, to make it common (almost the norm) rather than a rarity. Level I is corporate security grunts and the like. Level II is fast-response teams, SWAT teams, or starting runners. Level III is optimized or experienced runners, as well as groups like Firewatch, Ghosts, etc. Deckers on both sides typically try to break into the other side's P-Tac network to disrupt communications, feed false targetting data, seize control of an enemy drone, etc.
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Critias
post Apr 29 2016, 02:20 AM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Apr 28 2016, 04:40 PM) *
Honestly a lot of the wifi bonuses should have been PAN bonuses while other things like the medkit really do benefit from the wifi connection to the Matrix to get the most up to date data for patching you back together.

And -- remember -- some of them, in fact, were written as being PAN bonuses, not full Matrix stuff, due to a miscommunication/change/whatever after the equipment chapter had been written. It's come up before, but there was something of a SNAFU there. Some of them make more sense as PAN bonuses because that was how they were designed to work, initially. We've discussed those design inconsistencies before.
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ShadowDragon8685
post Apr 29 2016, 03:32 AM
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I have a great idea for fixing SR5.
Play Shadowrun 4th Edition, before a pants-on-head retarded brainfucked moron took charge of the line and began vigorously skullfucking it trying to roll things back to the techno-derp of the '80s from the near-future transhumanim of SR4 in a vain idiotic attempt to recapture the grognard neckbeards who were still playing SR1-3. (It failed. They still play SR1-3. It's just that SR5 drove me to Eclipse Phase.)
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Jaid
post Apr 29 2016, 03:33 AM
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a select few wireless bonuses actually make sense though. iirc, the survival knife was mentioned on several occasions as being one such... basically it acts as a GPS. which is genuinely something that connecting to the matrix should probably allow. of course, it should be possible with *any* matrix-connected device, really, but you'd probably have to mod the other things. the survival knife comes with that capability built in (and again, actually makes sense, rather than just being really really odd).
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LurkerOutThere
post Apr 29 2016, 03:50 AM
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Part of the problem is wireless bonuses and bricking aside, a lot of things in 5 work appreciably better then they Friday in 4 or SR4A in my opinion.
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ShadowDragon8685
post Apr 29 2016, 04:06 AM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 28 2016, 11:33 PM) *
a select few wireless bonuses actually make sense though. iirc, the survival knife was mentioned on several occasions as being one such... basically it acts as a GPS. which is genuinely something that connecting to the matrix should probably allow. of course, it should be possible with *any* matrix-connected device, really, but you'd probably have to mod the other things. the survival knife comes with that capability built in (and again, actually makes sense, rather than just being really really odd).


You know what the funny thing about that is, Jaid? The really, truly, amazingly funny thing about that is?
I'm 100% certain you could get a survival knife with a rudimentary GPS device in it in SR4's 2070, too. For that matter, your commlink would have had a GPS function in it as well.
And you know the astounding thing? It wouldn't work without wireless connectivity, either.


Okay, actually it probably would, because your example is kind of bad. GPS is a system which you can use through wholly-passive monitoring, because that's the nature of GPS signals. But yes, there are lots of things that would realistically not work without Matrix connectivity. For instance, literally anything involving communications. And when those things come up, the GM, being a Schmott Guy, would tell the players that if they want to use their device properly, they'll need to open up a connection to the Matrix. Not necessarily a wireless connection to the Matrix, because it's not like all those fiber-optics were torn out between 2064 and 2070.

But no reasonable GM would take it to the insane levels as found in my signature, let alone as found in the actual game.
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Zednark
post Apr 29 2016, 04:15 AM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Apr 28 2016, 11:50 PM) *
Part of the problem is wireless bonuses and bricking aside, a lot of things in 5 work appreciably better then they Friday in 4 or SR4A in my opinion.

Barring absurd Wireless bonuses and a few particular things they obviously didn't playtest, 5e is pretty great. The change in augmentations being limited to +4 instead of +50% made playing against type a ton easier, limits are a great way to prevent a skilled character from killing a dragon with a holdout pistol, as well as making players care about stats they otherwise wouldn't, weapon variety is substantially better due to the addition of Accuracy and different damage values for the same class of weapon, and the art is much improved (though that matters little).

The thing is, most of SR's rules problems don't stem from poor design, they stem from incredibly complex rules. I made a rules mod for Cyberpunk that condenses hacking to a single page. If I can whip that up in an hour in my free time, Catalyst can make good quality hacking rules that fir in less than ten pages. SR would be a ton better if it was more rules light. I don't want to consult tables and check rules during play, and I shouldn't have to. DnD 5e is a great example of how to make a more rules heavy game into a more rules light one. Now, the game doesn't have to be as small as something like Ghost Echo (which fits on a double sided piece of paper) but making it newb friendly is important, especially in an age of kids who don't want to read rules.
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Medicineman
post Apr 29 2016, 07:29 AM
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QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 28 2016, 10:20 PM) *
And -- remember -- some of them, in fact, were written as being PAN bonuses, not full Matrix stuff, due to a miscommunication/change/whatever after the equipment chapter had been written. It's come up before, but there was something of a SNAFU there. Some of them make more sense as PAN bonuses because that was how they were designed to work, initially. We've discussed those design inconsistencies before.

Yeah, You're right.
isn't it a shame that there is no Errata for that ?
I know that most of the WIFi Bonuses/Boni are supposed to be PAN bonuses and I often tell that to players that ask me.
But unfortunetely the Mistake is still RAW. (One more Reason why im so dissatisfied with the Devs from CGL)
and since I often go to conventions to play SR (4A and 5) I have to stick to RAW because that is the default line to most of the Games.
(even one of my 5 Table Games at Home sticks to RAW but slowly our GM discovers ...how much is simply wrong with the Rules...)

QUOTE
and a few particular things they obviously didn't playtest,

I'd like to correct You on that.
SR5 has been playtested to a great extent. Some of the Playtesters wrote that on the Forums I visit (and I have no reason not to believe them)

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LurkerOutThere
post Apr 29 2016, 08:51 AM
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So the general consensus seems to be ware hate, wireless bonus, and bricking aside 5 is pretty good?
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Stahlseele
post Apr 29 2016, 08:55 AM
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No, even without that it is not better than SR4A and an obvious money grab so they do not have to fix SR4A anymore.
But those are the worst points. Then there is the stupidity of, for some reason, making skills now go up to level 9 as well and be hardcapped there.
You know, for Reasons. Not really good or even specific ones, just reasons.
And the limits mechanic, which they implemented in the next attempt to make you roll less dice.
Which it simply does not do. And the new way that augmented maximum attribute wors as well.

And those are just the CRUNCHY BITS!
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LurkerOutThere
post Apr 29 2016, 09:04 AM
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Anything else?

Because none of those changes really bothered me. I felt a 1: Barely competent to 6: World Class was a bit of a small scale.
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ShadowDragon8685
post Apr 29 2016, 09:04 AM
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Let's not even forget that the chowderheads in charge of the line said "Nanomachines? I don't like nanomachines in my Shadowrun. Get rid of them." To which the writers said "Uh, dude, continuity? We've had nanomachines as being corp cutting-edge since the end of 3rd, and they've been stuff high-end Runners and governments can use throughout fourth." And he said "Then they stop working." And lo, as if by the wave of the hand of a dismissive god, nanomachines all stopped working, and somehow, things built by nanomachines (not out of nanomachines, which would be fucking absurd,) just fucking melted.

So yeah, I jumped to Eclipse Phase and haven't looked back. (Haven't looked back to SR5, that is.)
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Stahlseele
post Apr 29 2016, 09:24 AM
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Yeah, that for example is another really big step of TECH BAD! MAGIC GOOD!
Also, of course, because they can't seem to do anything else than bodystealers . .
We now have an epidemic of nanoware bodystealers that should have, by now, infected all of the world.
Also, Ares goes down because their new rifle was not as good as the hype made it out to be.
That's TREES level stupid to me.
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