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> whats the difference?, SMG's and machine pistols
xizor
post May 14 2004, 10:37 PM
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i have been reading some things on the web and i have not been able to figger out what the difference is between a SMG and a machine pistol

so could you please give me a definition for each (smg and machine pistols) in shadowrun terms.

thank you in advance
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Eyeless Blond
post May 14 2004, 10:49 PM
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SR firearms work like this: take everything you know about firearms in the real world. Got it? Okay, now flush it all down the toilet. Now do the same with physics, chemistry, and common sense, and then you're ready to understand SR firearms. :)
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Arethusa
post May 14 2004, 10:54 PM
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Make sure to throw your brain down with the rest of it. It won't do you any good. Other than that, great advice.
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Phaeton
post May 14 2004, 10:57 PM
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:rotfl:
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Entropy Kid
post May 14 2004, 11:05 PM
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Machine pistols use the Pistol skill, SMGs use the SMG skill. Machine pistols also only accept mounting on the top and barrel (I think).
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Moonwolf
post May 14 2004, 11:06 PM
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SR machine pistols are the smaller sized ones, SR SMGs are the bigger ones. That's it really. The machine pistols are easier to hide under coats, and harder to recoil compensate, so they're no use to anyone.
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RangerJoe
post May 14 2004, 11:41 PM
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As a GM, machine pistols have their use. As in the real world, machine pistols are cheap and effective means of producing spray'n'pray fire. This makes machine pistols popular with terrorists and other individuals who are less interested in actually hitting targets.

How do machine pistols fit into SR? Give them to gangers, terrorists, or ignorant suits-- just about anyone who thinks it would be "cool" to have an automatic weapon. Then, let them use said automatic weapon against the runners. Don't giggle too much at the recoil, or you'll break the mood. Tell the runners "a hail of bullets shatters the wall behind you, sending dust and drywall into the air." Instant combat tension.
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Shadow
post May 14 2004, 11:56 PM
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QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
SR firearms work like this: take everything you know about firearms in the real world. Got it? Okay, now flush it all down the toilet. Now do the same with physics, chemistry, and common sense, and then you're ready to understand SR firearms. :)


Arethusa said:
Make sure to throw your brain down with the rest of it. It won't do you any good. Other than that, great advice.

This and the post that followed, are complete crap. Ignore it. Here is some information that may prove useful Xisor, unlike the other two guys.


Machine pistols are exactly that. Pistol sized weapons capable of firing at machine gun rates. In SR terms they are Pistols that can fire BF or FA. Utterly and completely useless both in SR and in the real world. That is not to say they wont kill people, they will. Their just not as effective as a SMG or a Heavy Pistol.


I also recommend reading the information on Raygun's site, it is very useful. Click on the link below to find it.
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toturi
post May 15 2004, 12:05 AM
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As a GM, I use Machine Pistols for one thing and quite effectively... Suppressive Fire. Remember anyone can pick up an MP or 2 and start to spray the room.
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Arethusa
post May 15 2004, 12:06 AM
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Shit, Shadow, you're right. That must be why no one in real life's ever fired a Micro Uzi or a Glock 18 or a 93R. I have seen the error of my ways.

Xizor, SR's machine pistols, like SR's holdouts and SR's light pistols, are an idiotic joke on the unwitting and the ignorant, as are many of the canon rules, firearms related or otherwise. Anyone who says otherwise is completely wrong.

[edit]

Right, because that 6L damage is going to suppress real well. I'd advise searching fire if it didn't turn into 2L the second it hit even the most incompetent runner.

This post has been edited by Arethusa: May 15 2004, 12:08 AM
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Zazen
post May 15 2004, 12:07 AM
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QUOTE (Shadow @ May 14 2004, 06:56 PM)
Machine pistols are exactly that. Pistol sized weapons capable of firing at machine gun rates. In SR terms they are Pistols that can fire BF or FA. Utterly and completely useless both in SR and in the real world.

They're great for suppressive fire. Any ganger or wannabe can have one and start hosing lead.

ed- Damn. Beat me, toturi
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Kanada Ten
post May 15 2004, 12:10 AM
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Machine Pistols only require the Pistols skill, while SMG's require the SMG skill. Loading Ex-Explosive or APDS ammo in a machine pistol makes them quite efficent. Even more so using Searching Fire, Supression, or combined with Smartlink and a really high strength.

Typicall, mobsters in my game carry Machine Pistols as the standard walk around town gun.

QUOTE
Anyone who says otherwise is completely wrong.

Yawn.
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toturi
post May 15 2004, 12:12 AM
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QUOTE (Arethusa @ May 15 2004, 08:06 AM)
Right, because that 6L damage is going to suppress real well.  I'd advise searching fire if it didn't turn into 2L the second it hit even the most incompetent runner.

Hostage situation, different ammo types, otaku runners... and that's only after 3 seconds.

QUOTE
or combined with Smartlink and a really high strength.


Kanada, the SM doesn't figure in Suppressive Fire.
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Shadow
post May 15 2004, 12:13 AM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
Xizor, SR's machine pistols, like SR's holdouts and SR's light pistols, are an idiotic joke on the unwitting and the ignorant, as are many of the canon rules, firearms related or otherwise. Anyone who says otherwise is completely wrong.


And you base this information off your long and extensive RL personal knowledge of fire arms right? Tell me again if you have ever fired a gun?
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Arethusa
post May 15 2004, 12:19 AM
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Right, Shadow. Because human beings can't gain knowledge without experiencing it phenomenologically.
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toturi
post May 15 2004, 12:20 AM
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Like I said many times, if you don't enforce all the rules, then it would seem that certain things are useless.
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Luke Hardison
post May 15 2004, 12:22 AM
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The usefulness of suppressive fire with a machine pistol (or suppressive fire at all, really) in your game is a direct result of your playstyle, honestly. If a PC opens up full auto on a ganger I'm GM controling, the ganger soils himself, hits the deck, and stays down until there's a break in the firing. By the same token, if I'm playing and someone opens up on me with a hail of lead, I hit the deck, find some cover, and return fire.
On the other hand, if you play the kind of game where players and NPC's alike laugh at light pistols, knives, machine pistols and the like, then suppressive fire is pretty useless until it comes from an LMG or better.
I'm not supporting one style over the other (although, it's obvious what I prefer), but it definately colors your view on the usefulness of said toys. My personal choice for concealed suppressive is the SuperMach. One point of conceal larger than the smallest FA capable pistol, same damage code, and twice as thick a field of suppressive fire.
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Shadow
post May 15 2004, 12:23 AM
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Sure they can. But I wouldn't take advice from a Rock climber who had never climbed a mountain.

Nor would I take advice from someone on how to drive a car who had never driven one himself.

And lastly, I wouldn't take advice on guns and firearms from someone who has never fired one.

Machine pistols are not worthless. Are they as good as a heavy pistol or SMG. Obviously not. But just like in RL they have their uses. The fire arms rules in SR may not be super realistic, but they do the job. You obviously don't like the way the rules work, since you are re-writing them, so why tell someone their crap who is trying to learn them.

You don't like the rules, fine. Just don't sit here and tell everyone else how bad they are without even answering the guys question.
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Eyeless Blond
post May 15 2004, 12:41 AM
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Bah. Here I am trying to crack a joke and everyone goes and takes me seriously. Didn't you see the smilie? :D

Seriously, though, many of the other posters, Shadow and toturi in particular made the pertinent points. Machine pistols are useful because they're light, have a decent Concealability, and are the smallest things capable of burst-fire. SMGs are good because they're probably the most practical firearm choice for a 'runner: all the options of an assault rifle but better concealability in exchange for slightly less stopping power.

Now, smile dammit! :) :rotfl: :silly: :beret: :love: :alien: :D :pumpkin:
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RedmondLarry
post May 15 2004, 12:44 AM
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My understanding is that you purchase Light Pistol Ammo to use in a Shadowrun Machine Pistol, and you purchase SMG ammo to use in a SMG.
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Entropy Kid
post May 15 2004, 12:50 AM
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QUOTE
My understanding is that you purchase Light Pistol Ammo to use in a Shadowrun Machine Pistol
Technically, I think MPs use "machine pistol ammunition." I haven't seen (note old book + imperceptive) anything that said otherwise, and machine pistols are put in their own category, so I'd expect they used their category ammunition like everything else.
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Arethusa
post May 15 2004, 12:55 AM
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QUOTE (Shadow)
Sure they can. But I wouldn't take advice from a Rock climber who had never climbed a mountain.

Nor would I take advice from someone on how to drive a car who had never driven one himself.

And lastly, I wouldn't take advice on guns and firearms from someone who has never fired one.

Machine pistols are not worthless. Are they as good as a heavy pistol or SMG. Obviously not. But just like in RL they have their uses. The fire arms rules in SR may not be super realistic, but they do the job. You obviously don't like the way the rules work, since you are re-writing them, so why tell someone their crap who is trying to learn them.

You don't like the rules, fine. Just don't sit here and tell everyone else how bad they are without even answering the guys question.

I have no problem taking advice from those people. I have never presumed to offer practical experience that is outside the ken of someone who has never fired a weapon first hand. I can also vouch for the fact that I know more about firearms than a number of people I know with more practical experience. First hand practical knowledge is only one part of a much bigger equation, and it's completely fallacious to suggest otherwise.

Xizor clearly stated that he had been trying to understand the SR machine pistols by reading up on real life weapons. Blond's comment and my comment were intended to remedy this by explaining that SR's guns do not follow real life, do not follow any internal logic, are not sane, and do not make any sense. That's all.

Are machine pistols completely worthless? Consider that they are completely and totally outclassed by weapons that are, under a long coat and in a concealability holster, almost exactly as concealable and far more potent. SMGs do 6 or 7M, are almost just as small, and can pack a lot more compensation. Heavy pistols hit for 9 or 10M and will actually hurt your target instead of making him or her simply laugh at you. Per SR canon, they are a class of weapons with absolutely no advantages over anything else that is practically available. They'll never hit anything if you fire enough to stage up damage, and if you fire with searching or suppressing fire, they'll hit and do no damage. Get a heavy pistol or an SMG.
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Luke Hardison
post May 15 2004, 01:00 AM
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QUOTE (Entropy Kid @ May 14 2004, 07:50 PM)
QUOTE
My understanding is that you purchase Light Pistol Ammo to use in a Shadowrun Machine Pistol
Technically, I think MPs use "machine pistol ammunition." I haven't seen (note old book + imperceptive) anything that said otherwise, and machine pistols are put in their own category, so I'd expect they used their category ammunition like everything else.

QUOTE
Use the categories shown on the Weapon Range Table, p. 111, to determine what gun types can share ammo.


SR3, p. 279, Ammunition

There is no Machine Pistol range, they use LP ranges. Ergo, they use LP ammo.
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Zazen
post May 15 2004, 01:02 AM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
Are machine pistols completely worthless? Consider that they are completely and totally outclassed by weapons that are, under a long coat and in a concealability holster, almost exactly as concealable and far more potent. SMGs do 6 or 7M, are almost just as small, and can pack a lot more compensation. Heavy pistols hit for 9 or 10M and will actually hurt your target instead of making him or her simply laugh at you. Per SR canon, they are a class of weapons with absolutely no advantages over anything else that is practically available. They'll never hit anything if you fire enough to stage up damage, and if you fire with searching or suppressing fire, they'll hit and do no damage. Get a heavy pistol or an SMG.

So basically you're saying that anyone who desires to wear a concealable holster and long coat all of the time and fight armored high-body foes will get no use from a machine pistol?

Really, I'm fine with that, but it doesn't make them "completely worthless" :P
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Entropy Kid
post May 15 2004, 01:26 AM
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-thanks LH. No matter how many times I look at those books, I've probably learned more rules from Dumpshock. To me, machine pistols fire "9 mm" and "4.6 mm," but it's generally good to know what the canon rules are, especially if a question is about guns "in shadowrun terms."

I generally agree with Arethusa though- machine pistols are not scary and I don't think it's bad roleplaying to not hide when being attacked with something a character knows will not harm them (or at least, mostly likely won't) if it's more effecient to just stand and shoot the enemies or run up and stab them. If the mechanics don't give a reason for a character to hid behind the pile of gomi and fire off a few snapshots before going back behind cover, then players shouldn't have to play that way. Saying "completely" is too absolute though. I'd qualify it saying canon machine pistols are useful in specific situations and not the most effecient weapons available.

Sometimes I can't understand how some people will vigoriously defend and rationalize the canon rules since some make no sense. The best argument is probably "I like them," since it's essentially a matter of personal preference. Attacking another person's game is uncool though.
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