 whats the difference?, SMG's and machine pistols |
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 May 15 2004, 01:33 AM
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#26
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Senior GM  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442  |
We play a game where APDS is hard to get, and Machine Pistols are considered useless. I enjoyed the player reaction when their characters found a Machine Pistol that still had a half clip of APDS.
I find Machine Pistols useful in that I, as GM, can outfit various opponents at different levels of lethality. Some opponents have light pistols, some machine pistols, etc. up to Assault Rifles. A couple times they've run into someone with a Sniper Rifle. |
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May 15 2004, 02:04 AM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 614 Joined: 17-June 03 From: A safehouse about to be compromised by ninjas Member No.: 4,754 |
Rules wise, theres plenty of reason to use them. The rate of fire and conceal make them superior to smgs in many cases where that is an issue. Also, the way suppressive fire works (in the sr rules), they are very effective for that when being used by someone with a good skill. Also because they use the pistols skill, any character desiring an autofire weapon without wanting to invest in another skill can use these.
Lots of good reasons, all of them plain and logical. I dont see why people keep discounting the various categories of weapons as useless. Theyre not the highest damage code, but thats not always the point of the game... |
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May 15 2004, 02:17 AM
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#28
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
I like MPs. They're fun for the whole family :)
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May 15 2004, 02:17 AM
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#29
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Burst fire from a machine pistol is 9m with a dodge TN of 5. In the hand of a skilled user with a bit of recoil comp, they're actually slightly more deadly than heavy pistols to most people. The drawback is that it's hard to recoil compensate more than 1 burst, and they're loud.
All of that being in SR terms, of course. |
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May 15 2004, 02:19 AM
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#30
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I meant Suppressive Fire, Searching Fire, /or/ combined with a Smartlink... If you have the Smartlink, go for a called shot to ignore armor or increase damage. How about an example? Mobster with Pistols 4 skill loading Ex-explosive in a Machine Pistol with Folding Stock and Shock Pad (-1 RC) plus a Custom Grip (-1 RC). The Mobster has a Combat Pool of 6 and uses one simple to aim (-1 TN) before firing a burst with 4 Combat Pool. The burst has a base damage of 11M and a Target Number of 4. Average of 4 successes. The Target Number to dodge is 5 and requires 5 successes. Mobster Twin with Pistols 4 and an SMG loaded with Ex-explosive, Folding Stock and Shock Pad (-1 RC), plus a Gas Vent IV (-4 RC). Twin lets out two bursts using 2 Combat Pool (Max 1/2 Skill Defaulting) each shot. The first burst has a base damage of 13S and a Target Number of 7. Average 1 success. The second burst has a base damage of 13S and a Target Number of 8. Off and on success. The Target Number to dodge both shots is 5 and requires 2 successes. Mobster Monster with Pistols 4 and a Heavy Pistol loading Ex-explosive ammo with a Custom Grip (-1 RC). Monster fires two shots using 4 Combat Pool and 2 Combat Pool respectfully. The first shot does base damage of 11M with a Target Number of 4, as does the second shot. Average of 4 and 3 successes. The Target Number to dodge is 4 for both shots requiring 5 and 4 successes. Joe Doe agrees to stand in as our dummy and has a Combat Pool of 8, Lined Coat (4/2), and a Body of 6. Because we don’t want to skew things, each shot happens in its own scenario. Joe’s lucky perception test and previous experience tells him Dodging is the better option in all cases (Target Numbers of 5 and 4 versus Target Numbers of 7 and 9). Using 8 Combat Pool to dodge against Mobster’s shot, Joe will average 3 successes, reducing Mobster’s net successes to 1. That’s not enough to dodge so we take Joe’s 3 successes and Mobster’s 4 and Stage the Damage. Joe rolls 6 Body against a Target Number of 7, averaging 1 success, making his net 4 successes. The Damage Code of 11M is not staged up or down, and Joe takes a Moderate Wound. Joe Doe will dodge Twin’s first shot using 6 Combat Pool and averaging 2 successes. The second shot will often miss, but if we assume it hits we’ll also assume Joe garnered a success on his dodge using the last 2 Combat Pool. That mean we’re on to Damage Staging with Joe rolling Body 6 and averaging 1 success every few rolls against a Target Number 9. Even if we assume success on the Body roll, that makes 1 Success for Twin and 2 for Joe, so the damage is not staged. Joe will take a Serious wound if the second shot hits. Against a Target Number of 7 Joe averages 3 successes, as we know, leaving 1 net for Monster. The Body roll only nets 1 success too, meaning Monster’s first shot deals a Moderate wound to Joe after staging (4 successes and 4 successes). The second shot uses Joe’s straight Body 6 against a Target Number of 7. One success won’t stop Monster from raising the damage to Serious, dealing a total of nine boxes of damage in one phase. Conclusion: A few mobsters firing Machine Pistols can ruin anyone’s day and still let the PCs survive the encounter without fudging dice rolls. Obviously, the Heavy Pistol is the best choice in most cases. However, if Heavy Pistols carried heavier Legal ramifications (which many GMs incorporate) then it makes sense for people who interact with police forces more often to carry the concealable Machine Pistol. Note that Twin did not aim because doing so did not increase the chance of hitting. The chance of fully dodging Monster’s two shots is near impossible requiring 9 Combat Pool total (and all success), while to dodge Mobster’s shot only requires 5 Combat Pool (though a Pedestrian only has 4 Combat Pool). Now, if we give them all Smartlinks... |
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May 15 2004, 02:22 AM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 334 Joined: 17-November 03 From: Texas Member No.: 5,828 |
Well stated, Kanada.
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May 15 2004, 03:57 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Scotland Member No.: 3,175 |
If you really go to town with customising your machine pistol you can actually fit a lot of recoil comp into it, probably more than a lot of people realise. That's assuming you and your GM are both happy with the CC rules for that, which evidently a lot of people aren't!
But add to that a character who's very strong, and either EX or APDS ammo, and you're onto a winner. Or if you still don't have enough recoil comp you can always go for tracer or incendiary rounds. ;) Sure machine pistols are barely more concealable than an SMG, in fact perhaps not at all, but more people have a Pistols skill than SMGs, so for those people it's handy as they can just keep using the same skill. Useful things to be able to pull on someone for a quick 16D or so. |
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May 15 2004, 04:45 AM
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#33
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
If you and your GM are happy with Conceal 10 assault rifles, have fun with the CC rules. There really are a lot of reasons the canon rules get made fun of so much.
Really, considering how concealable SMGs are (they pretty much all beat the crap out of the Ares Predator), if you have to pick one skill, I'd take SMGs. 3 points less power are only going to hurt against hardened armor, really, and if you're taking on hardened armor, pistols won't cut it anyway. |
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May 15 2004, 04:59 AM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Scotland Member No.: 3,175 |
Yep, SMGs are generally pretty concealable. It's a bit daft that, for example, an Ingram Smartgun is Conc 5 whereas a Predator 2 or 3 is Conc 4... Especially when you see a picture of a Smartgun, I can't see how they can say it's more concealable than even a very big handgun.
But then that's just another anomaly in the firearms rules, much like a lot of what's in the customisation section. :) Personally I favoure assault rifles over other firearms, but it's good to have a backup and pistols make quite a lot of sense to me. |
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May 15 2004, 05:22 AM
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#35
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Did you answer his question or even help? No you acted like a jackass and now are trying to show everyone how smart you are. Whoopee. My point was you didn't answer the question, you have no real knowledge of firearms accept for what you have read on the web. You took it as an oppurtunity to bash the rules which you don't like. Wahoo, your a genius. Next time someone asks a question why don't you try being helpful? Jeez. |
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May 15 2004, 05:28 AM
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#36
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Right. Because telling him that his attempts to understand SR's canon weapons from a viewpoint that encompasses anything approaching reality is folly could not at all be helpful information.
Perhaps you can drop the pretentious conceit and the ad hominem bullshit and try being a civil adult. |
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May 15 2004, 05:29 AM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 162 Joined: 14-April 04 Member No.: 6,239 |
I'll make it really realy easily for you,..
a machine pistol is basically a burst fire and/or full auto light pistol a SMG is basically a burst fire and/or full auto heavy pistol |
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May 15 2004, 05:32 AM
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#38
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,326 |
Since when have machine pistols been deemed worthless? The only people I can imagine saying that are those who don't comprehend the rules or those who simply aren't familiar with them at all.
Sure, they won't penetrate hardened armor as well as a heavy pistol, heavy pistols are a bit more legal, and their range is slightly limited compared to a heavy pistol. But in just about every other way, they're equal or superior to most of them. Let's compare an Ares Predator with an Ares Crusader. The Predator has a Conceal of 5 (10 in Concealed Holster and Long Coat), Ammo load 15©, fires in SA mode, and does 9M damage. The Crusader has a Conceal of 6 (12), Ammo load of 40©, fires in SA/BF modes, and does 6L damage. Note than when firing in BF mode, the Crusader's stats effectively become Conceal 6(12), Ammo 13.3©, BF, and 9M, and 2 points of Recoil Compensation where either a Strength of 6 or Personalized Grip can give you one free shot with no recoil. That gives it a superior Concealability, comparable Ammo, and equal Damage in the same type action. However, it also makes it harder to Dodge and gives you the option to conserve ammo when facing weaker opponents. As previously mentioned, the downsides are a slightly reduced range, less penetration against hardened armor, and a minor legal issue. But that penalty to a target's Dodge score more than makes up for all of that in most cases. I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but I tend to play runners who go for versatility. If you know you're going up against a serious opponent, you're still free to bust out a Rugar Super Warhawk with ExEx or APDS/AV rounds if you need to, and you have a suppressed Walther PB-120 or WW Infiltrator when you need to be more sneaky. For everyday use, however, an Ares Crusader is a fine selection for anyone who doesn't feel the need to overcompensate. Whether or not you agree, that's your choice. But in my experience and my opinion, machine pistols are hardly worthless. |
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May 15 2004, 05:40 AM
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#39
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Well if you had said that, at least he would have know where the hell you were coming from. Regardless if I agree with you or not (and I don't) it would have been a lot more useful then, "flush your brain down the toilet". As for the rest of it, I will just chalk it up to you being a jackass. |
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May 15 2004, 05:46 AM
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#40
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Not really. Even per canon, they fire different ammunition and have completely different damage codes (6 or 7M to the heavy pistols' 9 or 10M).
Conceal of 4, not 5. And you can get that first shot off with no recoil if you just get a custom grip, but they don't fare very well on the second; +3 may not be impossible, but it does make things a fair bit harder. Do the +1 to the dodge test and +2 concealability make up for (an effective) 2 shots less capacity, triple recoil on the second shot per phase, increased ammunition costs, increased weapon illegality, slightly decreased range, inability to do damage on semi auto, and impotence against hardened armor? Personally, I don't think so. I really wouldn't call that overcompensation. |
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May 15 2004, 05:57 AM
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#41
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Chance of Police spotting Heavy Pistol 29.76%
Chance of Police spotting Machine Pistol 8.1% How many police officers the carrier interacts with is directly proportional to the pistol they carry. IMO. |
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May 15 2004, 06:16 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 614 Joined: 17-June 03 From: A safehouse about to be compromised by ninjas Member No.: 4,754 |
The thing everyons forgetting about the conceal is that machine pistols can use conceal holsters as pistols, smgs cannot. That makes the numbers after holster and long coat more like 12 for the pistol and 9 for the smg if you choose the higher conceal kind. 12 is a lot nicer than 9 if youre trying to smuggle autofire around.
And dont evaluate the game rules based on realism. The rules will never reflect reality to an extent that satisfies everyone. All the do is create a system by which you should be able to play out realistic plots. p.s. - the cc weapon design rules should be errata'd out of the book for being utterly useless. they do *not* fulfill the above statement in any capacity... |
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May 15 2004, 06:27 AM
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#43
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
The Morrissey Alta carries 12 rounds, is just as concealable as a TMP, and has a greater effective capacity. It is admittedly a bit more expensive, but otherwise just as accessible, and you won't be suffering the same recoil headaches. The Browning Ultra-Power has the same effective capacity, same concealability, and costs less than half as much.
And, of course, there's always the Elite at Conceal 7 and a dirt cheap 225¥. But, hell, why stop there? The Colt Cobra TZ-118 has conceal 5, a 32 round magazine, SA, BF, FA, 6M damage, a free Smartlink, and a lower price by 200¥ after street index. It's only slightly harder to get than the Crusader and easier to get than the TMP. The Colt Water Carbine has a conceal of 5, a 30 round magazine, SA, BF, a 6M damage code, a bunch of special features, and only costs 100¥ after street index. An HK MP-5 TX has a conceal of 5, a 20 round magazine, SA, BF, FA, a 6M damage code, 2 points of recoil compensation, and costs less than half of what a machine pistol will run you. An Ingram SuperMach 100 with a standard mag weighs in at conceal 5, 40 round capacity, SA, BF, FA, 6L damage code, less than 50% more cost, 3 points of internal recoil compensation, and 6 round bursts. And if you don't mind dropping to a concealability of 4, just pop in a 60 round mag. And, hell, if concealability isn't a major issue, at the very low end of the spectrum, there are the conceal 4 SMGs— just as concealable as many heavy pistols. The Ingram Warrior-10 has a conceal of 4, a 30 round mag, SA, BF, 7M damage code, and a dirt cheap price of 585¥ after street index. The Sandler TMP also has a conceal of 4, a 20 round mag, BF, FA, a 6M damage code, an integral laser sight, a folding stock, and a cost of 500¥. The SCK Model 100 has a conceal of 4, a 30 round mag, SA, BF, a 7M damage code, a free Smartlink, and only a very slightly increased cost over the machine pistols. In contrast, the Ares Crusader machine pistol has a conceal of 6, a 40 round capacity, SA, BF, a measly 6L damage code, 2 points of recoil compensation, and an effective cost of 1,900¥ after street index. The Steyr TMP weighs in also with a conceal of 6, a 30 round capacity, SA, BF, FA, the 6L damage code, a free Smartlink, and an effective cost of 1,800¥. Would someone please explain why these are supposed to be taken seriously? |
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May 15 2004, 06:37 AM
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#44
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Are you simply talking about the rules, or do you mean if an enemy draws one on a character? From the rules perspective: I can buy a week supply of MaryJane for 20$ and a week supply of cigs at 35$... I can buy a gun for 65$ and a knife for 200$ or a car for 200$ and a bicyle for $500 or an airplane for 10,000,000$ and a house for 96,000$. Why would anyone buy a knife, an airplane or a pack of cigs? If the enemy draws one on you, I've already shown they can do damage. |
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May 15 2004, 06:56 AM
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#45
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
And so can everything else I listed, and they'll do it far better, far more efficiently, and far more effectively. What do machine pistols offer other than an extra point of concealability— an advantage that a couple of similar weapons share— and a +1 on dodge tests at the cost of so much else?
That, and your metaphor really doesn't make any sense. |
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May 15 2004, 07:04 AM
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#46
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
You seem to think that Street Index is the same everywhere, all the time. This is simply untrue, if a supply truck gets hit and it's filled with Machine Pistols, the market is flooded and the SI goes down. Other locations might favor Machine Pistols, as well. The high price is probably an indication of the lack of street demand. One thing to remember is that a plus one TN makes something twice as hard to accomplish (except at 6/7).
My metaphor is that people buy things for different reasons. Look at the Brand Name Firearm debate, think about the PC/MAC debate, and other things in real life. None of it makes any sense. We cant really say what weapons are better because they don't have neat little damage codes to compare. Neither do the guns in the Shadowrun world. At least, not to the people in the world. |
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May 15 2004, 07:20 AM
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#47
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
For most GMs, I believe it is. That aside, even taking the canon street indices as general averages, they work out dramatically in the favor of anything not a machine pistol. And, yes, that +1 does halve your chances of succeeding, but when you consider all the other dynamic elements in play in combat, that +1 really isn't all that significant— especially when I can do the same thing and do it far better with an SMG. If I'm going to make you dodge at +1 or +2, I'll make sure you're ducking away from 9, 10, or 12S, not 9M. Especially when the recoil is, at its most favorable for the Ares Crusader, identical to the SMG.
Yes, they do, but just because people in SR don't have damage codes to look at doesn't mean they can't read assessments of the terminal potential of various rounds from whatever the SR equivalent of the IWBA is, or, hell, just browse some matrix information for opinions. Once you get that, it will at least be incredibly obvious that the lethality of that 6L slug, even if fake you don't know it does 6L, is pretty fucking limited— just like I know I'll never drag a .22LR pistol into combat unless I have no other choice. |
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May 15 2004, 07:28 AM
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#48
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Interesting, but the mobster is still going to see the Heavy Pistol spotted 29.76 percent of the time and the Machine Pistol spotted 8.1 precent and think: hummm... Like I said, I can reasonably justify mobsters and gangers carring them just so I'm not killing my PCs left and right. But I also modify SI and Legality, so... |
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May 15 2004, 07:36 AM
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#49
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Target Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 5-April 04 Member No.: 6,220 |
I think Kanada's last point is really important, and often ignored around here. The people in the SR world have no idea what the damage code is for a weapon. An expert PC or NPC with high firearms knowledge might be able to tell you that machine pistols arent worth the money, but most people (even those who know how to shoot) won't have a clue.
I'm no gun expert, but I've asked some folks more knowledgable than me. According to them, in the real world, there are lots of crappy guns that sell very well for aesthetic, cultural, whatever reasons. Apparently gun magazines are filled with ads for shitty inneffective guns that look cool/covert to FA/insert stupid reason to buy here. Sure, a heavy pistol may be marginally more effective in combat, but somebody who only shoots pistols might just want to shoot something full auto (as mentioned above, a full auto warning shot may scare off a bunch of go gangers when a single shot won't). In my personal SR universe, pistol skill is very common, smg skill is pretty rare. There are plenty of Yak street soldiers who think that packing a full auto weapon is cool and macho. Now a trained Shadowrunner/Bodyguard/Lonestar Officer will take one look at said Yak and think "amateur", but that doesn't mean the gun shouldn't exist. |
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May 15 2004, 07:37 AM
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#50
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Then I think, hummm, those conceal 5 SMGs and conceal 6 and 7 Heavy Pistols are looking pretty damn good.
Go ahead and do that. I think we all know how I feel about modifying canon. My point is that, by canon, there's really no use for the things unless you're specifically looking for a rather impotent weapon. [edit]
Certainly, there's no way to perfectly calculate what is the best weapon in real life, but also keep in mind that those shitty weapons that sell well don't sell to people who'll likely ever bring them to combat, and are much less likely to sell to someone who lives by the thing. I'm not suggesting that every person in the Shadowrun world is perfectly professional, but by and large, a runner should never run into a canon machine pistol short of a fluke who thought it was a good idea and is about to be proven sorely wrong.
Shouldn't SMGs qualify, here? And, per canon, it's not like there's a concealability issue. Lots of heavy pistols are harder to conceal and presumably smaller than most SMGs. This post has been edited by Arethusa: May 15 2004, 07:42 AM |
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