 whats the difference?, SMG's and machine pistols |
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 May 15 2004, 07:44 AM
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#51
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Beetle Eater  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826  |
[IC] But the fraggin' SMG handle like crap, and those wussy Morrissey guns look like something my wife would match to her purse. I wanna lay down some spary to cover our exit from the bank, not kill one guy really dead. Now, the TMP, there's a weapon. Full Auto - barrrrrrat, plus the long slender frame doesn't hang when I pull it out fast. Baby handles like a dream with that custom grip, too. |
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May 15 2004, 08:21 AM
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#52
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
I'm surprised no one mentioned the tactic of using chemical-loaded capsule rounds in a machine pistol. When you empty your clip for suppresive fire, that guy has to get 10+ successes on a dodge test to avoid your choice of hard-to-resist toxin, limited only by your budget. Some machine pistols have enough ammo capacity to do this 2 or three times before even having to think about an empty clip.
It's a pretty good tactic for such high concealability, and you can even whip out two to deal twice the chemical fun. I've had an NPC do this before using simple pepper punch and hyper; it's pretty damn effective. |
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May 15 2004, 08:58 AM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 173 Joined: 4-March 03 Member No.: 4,196 |
Drifting into that spooky zone of GM discretion, I'm not sure something with a 30 or 40 round magazine should be allowed in an easily accessable "conceal holster," except for someone around ork size or larger, the text itself says "a pistol," but some pistols probably shouldn't be allowed in them either- especially after sound supressors (I mean "Silencers" :) ), laser sights, etc. are stuck on them.
With capsule rounds, I usually think hold-out pistols, but you have a good point. Although it seems as likely as the ultimate, super, super-duper, max, machine pistol in the hands of a strength enhanced troll- it's a great one for the bag of tricks, I'd never see that coming (but the people around here are more creative it seems).
I remember reading some house rules not allowing capsule rounds for bullets under a certain size (to stop their use in hold-outs). I like that idea quite a bit. |
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May 15 2004, 09:01 AM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 752 |
capsules are too easy. i'd prefer to ignore them, and i think a lot of people agree with me or most runners would be packing nothing but cavalier scouts with capsules rather than their heavy pistols.
it doesn't take much of a capsule to provide a lethal dose. http://www.geocities.com/project_coast/page_7.html imagine a little machine pistol spitting out tiny 1.7mm spheres like that... Poison Umbrellas, Evil GMs take note and watch out players with Evil GMs |
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May 15 2004, 09:15 AM
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#55
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
I've never carried a machine pistol because it's too specialized for what my non-sams would carry a weapon for.
1. Handgun -- self-defense. 1a) Handgun with burst fire -- aggressive self-defense. 2. SMG -- multi-purpose. Generates automatic fire for a variety of uses; capable of making targets sit up and notice. 3. Machine Pistol -- multi-purpose, but lighter impact. Not as functional against specific targets, but will make most people scatter and/or dive for cover. A professional sam would concievably see a use and purpose for the more specialized machine pistol, given the relative light damage but a generalist or a non-combat spec might opt for more multi-purpose weapons. And if I'm going to get busted for carrying an automatic weapon, it might as well have teeth. :grinbig: -Siege Edit: And trying to interject real life into SR mechanics kinda defeats the purpose. A MP chambered in 9mm is still gonna be terrifying to responding officers wearing body armor on their torso and nowhere else. |
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May 15 2004, 09:53 AM
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#56
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Definitions of Machine Pistol and SMGs have been rather adequately given in SR terms already. MPs use the Pistols-skill to fire LP ammo at LP ranges doing (usually) 6L damage with rather high Concealabilities and rather low Weights and are capable of BF or FA or both. SMGs use the SMG-skill to fire SMG ammo at SMG ranges doing 6M or 7M damage with mediocre Concealabilities (though you can get a custom one with a very high Conc) and medium Weights and are capable of BF or FA or both.
Just because the numbers don't completely add up, you can use Real Life weapons as an example of this. The VP70M is a machine pistol, the MP5 is a submachine gun (or indeed THE submachine gun). The Stechkin APS is a machine pistol, the Thompson is a submachine gun. Steyr TMP = MP, Steyr AUG Para = SMG. Then we enter muddy waters: if you accept that the Steyr TMP is a machine pistol (like the people at Steyr obviously did, Tactical Machine Pistol), where do you draw the line with the Uzis? Most would say that the standard, full-size Uzi is a SMG, but the micro-Uzi is a MP. But what about the mini-Uzi, which is it? The Skorpion most would probably call MP, but how about the MP7? Of course you can dodge that last question by saying that the MP7 is a "personal defense weapon", but that isn't very helpful. What's the P90 in that case? This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: May 15 2004, 10:45 AM |
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May 15 2004, 01:59 PM
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#57
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Even more interesting, it's not possible to mount a foregrip on a machine pistol. |
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May 15 2004, 02:07 PM
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#58
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
The P-90 was (and is) classified as a PDW. :grinbig:
Of course, what do you classify PDWs into? A new Active skill? And without checking CC, I don't know if you're permitted to mount a foregrip on a MP but we've established that not every SR law makes sense or functions well irl. -Siege |
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May 15 2004, 02:17 PM
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#59
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
A PDW skill? Come on, the firearms skills are already ridiculously fractured. No need to make things worse. Especially when the difference between firing a P90 and firing any other SMG is pretty much nil. As for stuff like the TMP or MP7, I'd stick to the SMG skill, and for the really tiny stuff like the Micro Uzi, I guess I'd be forced to allow Pistols or SMGs to apply.
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May 15 2004, 03:05 PM
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#60
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Sorry, I forgot the [/goofy, rhetorical question] tag. :grinbig: -Siege |
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May 15 2004, 04:41 PM
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#61
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 12-March 04 Member No.: 6,152 |
Just a point on the real life handling of weapons...
What on earth does that have to do with game weapons or game rules? Unless you are pulling out real guns at your gaming table and shooting each other then your real life expertise is meaningless. The effectiveness of RL firearms has -nothing- to do with the effectiveness of SR firearms. In fact, if real life knowledge of guns had any bearing on judging the In Game weapons, it is more likely to be a negative factor than positive. Real life knowledge can easily color rules interpretations with what "should" be. --- As to the matter at hand, I love mps for one reason, because no one else carries them. |
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May 15 2004, 04:44 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 614 Joined: 17-June 03 From: A safehouse about to be compromised by ninjas Member No.: 4,754 |
Yes, people should stop trying to make the rules mirror reality.
Yes, MP are useful. Yes, some people in this thread continue to not get the point. Yes, its their loss because theyre the ones overlooking tactical flexibility. |
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May 15 2004, 04:48 PM
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#63
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,326 |
Not that it matters, but I've always viewed Machine Pistols to be more like those automatic pistols Glock puts out; Light Pistols with automatic capabilities, just like others have said. Anything heavier than that goes into the Submachine Gun category as far as I'm concerned.
Sure, the names they tag on to some of the weapons may be contrary to what their real-world equivalences are, but the intent seems to be pretty solid. When it comes down to it, Machine Pistols are just automatic Light Pistols and that's about that. If you're more interested in metagaming, that's your perogotive. But Machine Pistols are not useless or worthless. They work quite nicely in my experience. Especially when dual-weilded: Suppressive fire on crack. :) |
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May 15 2004, 05:47 PM
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#64
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
And for extra fun, which guns are the good ones and which are the crappy ones will vary radically between gun experts! I've seen pages-long arguments between very serious gun enthusiasts about whether a certain model of Glock was the best pistol evar or a jamming-prone piece of crap that no one should buy. |
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May 15 2004, 06:13 PM
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#65
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 12-March 04 Member No.: 6,152 |
One of the truest bits ever. Everything is subjective. Especially when experts get involved. |
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May 15 2004, 07:40 PM
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#66
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
And very few people find this to be pleasant. At best, it's accepted; more often, it's mocked, and for good reason. I don't see why you find the concept of realistic weaponry unpleasant. Not only does it make a hell of a lot more sense than the stuff found in canon, but it's quite playable. Even Spycraft and it's extreme (and intentional) unrealism is orders of magnitude more realistic than SR, and I hear that game's quite popular.
Maybe you can back this up, as I've gone over the numbers on the previous page, and it's pretty clear that machine pistols are a class of weapons that do almost absolutely nothing better than other much more available and tactically flexible weapons?
As I recall, SMGs can be dual weilded without additional penalty just as well.
But that doesn't necessarily mean there aren't weapons out there that are quite literally and unarguably (combat) useless. No gun expert will ever suggest bringing a .22 target pistol of any kind to a battle or even with you for self defense, and that's exactly what we're looking at in when it comes to light pistols. Not everything is subjective. |
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May 15 2004, 08:22 PM
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#67
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
The bottom right corner of the Weapon Record PDF has a side-by-side comapirison of an SMG and a Machine Pistol.
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May 15 2004, 09:59 PM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 973 Joined: 3-October 03 Member No.: 5,677 |
Hmm. The right-hand one looks like a descendant of the Beretta 93FS. That, I'd say, would qualify as a machinepistol. |
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May 15 2004, 10:36 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
Heh. Well, as far as pistols go, I'd have to say that the most useless pistol I've ever had to use wasn't a machine pistol. I know a guy who uses them to a fair bit of success, at that. The single worst pistol I have ever had the misfortune to lay my grubby little hands on is the Eichiro Hatamoto II.
Off topic, but eh. It's TRUE. You better hope that 8S blast kills the guy, 'cause you aren't getting a second chance. :dead: |
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May 15 2004, 11:04 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 614 Joined: 17-June 03 From: A safehouse about to be compromised by ninjas Member No.: 4,754 |
I already did........
As pistols MP's have higher conceal due to concealable holster if nothing else. As pistols MP's allow someone with a single gun skill to have access to autofire. Using supressive fire rules, both weapons are nearly equally powerful presuming the user has an equal skill level. And thats just the more obvious/applicable stuff, you can create more reasons if you start using specific character builds. Point being that statisitcally superior damage code isnt the be all end all measuring stick of which gun is best. Agree or not, doesnt affect how it works in others' games. |
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May 15 2004, 11:28 PM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 17-June 02 From: Concord University, Athens, WV Member No.: 2,880 |
Does keeping a pair of spring-powered plastic machine pistols near the gaming table count? I'm a pretty good shot with those little plastic pellets... I need to remember those next time I invite the munchkin to a live game... |
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May 15 2004, 11:45 PM
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#72
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The thing I'm most proud of with my revamping of the firearms is that my players really do pick weapons based on name and looks and minor details like 0.25kg lower weight. There are so many good things and bad things about all kinds of weapons that it's often impossible to say which particular gun is "the best". I think I've currently got 67 different pistols alone in the game, and comparing them all point-by-point is just pointless: they're all good at something.
No comment on whether you "should" or "should not" change ranged combat rules/figures. I don't think anybody "should" do anything about a game. But it's probably wise to do the thing that makes you feel better. For me, that was making the rules more realistic at minimum additional complexity (to players, at least). |
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May 15 2004, 11:48 PM
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#73
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I'm not really seeing any resemblance to the 93R at all. Or, hell, any other real life weapon I'm familiar with. Not that the SR firearm drawings are generally terribly good, but this is one of the ones that bears no resemblance to anything currently existing. On a slightly related note, I'm glad that drawing clears up where it keeps the 40 rounds of ammunition.
Unfortunately, yeah, this type of weapon really has no place in SR canon due to abstracted hit locations and armor. In a more precise system, it wouldn't be such a liability.
The concealability is almost a nonexistant advantage. The SMGs, as far as I know, can be shoved in concealable holsters. I don't recall any canon ruling that states they can't, and, hell, if you can shove a conceal 4 pistol in one, I can't imagine why you shouldn't be able to shove a conceal 5 SMG in too. As far as access to autofire goes, that's great, because anyone who has only Pistols and nothing else is likely not to be combat inclined, and not likely to be able to hit anything with the crazy recoil you'll generate from a machine pistol. Besides, if you just take SMGs, you get the same concealabilities you can get with heavy pistols, access to autofire, and only have to deal with 3 points less power, at most. As far as suppressing fire goes, that 6L really isn't going to suppress anyone. And of course damage code isn't all there is to it. That's why I also noted prices, availabilities, capacities, recoil, and various other advantages that everything not a machine pistol has access to. |
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May 15 2004, 11:59 PM
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#74
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
The bullets are really really small, but it's that thing on the barrel that looks like a grip. ;)
The ability to bypass armor with a called-shot makes this a lethal weapon in the right hands. This isn't a combat gun though; like a light pistol, this is self defense for those without melee skills. If you're down to the Hatamoto you tucked into your boot it is your last chance, but better than dead. |
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May 16 2004, 12:03 AM
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#75
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
While the rules don't say you can't put an SMG in a concealable holster, the benefits of one (including quick-draw holsters) only apply to pistols.
First, your comment about someone with Pistols is just idiotic. Characters who focus on Pistols generally do it for the versatility, options, and coolness factor of using them. They run the gambit from heavy penetration to automatic fire to shotgun ammo while simultaneously being amongst the most concealable and portable firearms in the game. No other firearm group in the game can make that claim. I'd hardly say that a Mafia Soldier or any other character who prefers, if not exclusively uses, a pistol is "likely not to be combat inclined." Second, a machine pistol has exactly the same amount of recoil as an SMG does, with many of the same recoil compensation options available (a Heavy Barrel with Gas Vent IV and a Personalized Grip gives you 6 points alone). Stocks and Cyberarm Gyromounts work just as well with them, too. A custom-built one (ie, one manufactured by someone outside of those already listed in the books) can add another point on top of all that. It may not be practical in all situations, but they can be compensated nearly as well as an SMG can.
Only in the munchkinland you seem to play in. The vast majority of the Sixth World's population is going to get bit and bit hard by a competent pistoleer shooting a weapon with a base damage code of 6 to 7L.
While simultaneously ignoring or pushing aside all the advantages. Quite the open mind you have there, hoss. |
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