Earthdawn Airships in the Sixth World, And other “always on” magical items – how to create them? Options

[JanessaVR]

To be fair, the Shadowrun line cannot call these creatures Windlings, T'Skrang or Obsidimen due to licensing issues. The lines have diverged ownership over the years. So...

Now you have Pixies and Changelings. Personally... I was happy to see the Earthdawn references stop in Shadowrun. While Earthdawn is a good game, I am far happier with them being diverged from each other than I ever was with them having a shared existence in the same timeline across the Mana Cycle.

It's the exact opposite for me. The reason I stay with SR is the ED linkage. Without the magic, the ancient history that's slowly being rediscovered, the whole mana cycle connecting the new and old worlds, well, I might as well just pick up Cyberpunk 2020, as dystopian, "high-tech, low-life" settings are a dime a dozen these days. This is the reason SR remains special for me.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's the exact opposite for me. The reason I stay with SR is the ED linkage. Without the magic, the ancient history that's slowly being rediscovered, the whole mana cycle connecting the new and old worlds, well, I might as well just pick up Cyberpunk 2020, as dystopian, "high-tech, low-life" settings are a dime a dozen these days. This is the reason SR remains special for me.

I do understand. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mantis]

It's the exact opposite for me. The reason I stay with SR is the ED linkage. Without the magic, the ancient history that's slowly being rediscovered, the whole mana cycle connecting the new and old worlds, well, I might as well just pick up Cyberpunk 2020, as dystopian, "high-tech, low-life" settings are a dime a dozen these days. This is the reason SR remains special for me.

I too liked it when they first started out. It really added something to the SR world. However, as time has gone on and it got more disjointed, trying to reconcile the two time lines became more effort than it was worth. Probably because we never really got too into ED. That stupid step dice system was annoying. I prefer my dice systems to be more intuitive where I don't need to look at a chart to figure out what I should roll.

As for the Obsidimen, I thought there was also a reference to them but that it was in 3rd ed. We all seem to remember them being in SR somewhere but just not where. Makes me think it exists but who is up for the treasure hunt? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

There was also a quasi canon short story"The Last Liferock" written by an SR Freelancer.
And the SR3 thing . . not sure if it was SR3 or 2, but i think it was somewhere in Ausfailia.

[lokii]

@JanessaVR: I completely understand that you want a working scenario and make choices accordingly, so please note in presenting alternatives I'm not trying to push my reading of the various clues. Also since I'm more interested in the different scenarios that are consistent with the clues (or a subset of them) I also look at the gaps and how they might plausibly be filled. Of course if you get to fanciful with this approach, it will likely become irrelevant, but I suspect some of the missing pieces can be interpolated.

The other issue, as you and others here have noted, is whether the Horrors require a certain mana level to survive, or just to be summoned. This is where SR is trying to have it both ways, and it can’t. If the ED account of events is true, then lower mana levels = the Horrors must leave for home, as they can’t endure them. If the SR account of events is true, then lower mana levels = only a problem if you want to actually summon the Horrors early in the game, and once they arrive they can survive just fine in a mana level not even one century past the Awakening.

As I said before, what I called the Earthdawn mechanism should be an ingame theory. Also seems inherently flawed to me, again as pointed out before, many powerful horrors still remain, so why is the bulk gone? But apart from that now that I had another look I'm not even sure that it is the central explanation. It should be in the Horrors sourcebook but for example looking at the Earthdawn core rulebook game information text:

p.37: Though the world always had magic, the level of ambient magic gradually increased, and so did the activity of the Horrors. Magic eventually reached a level that allowed the Horrors to routinely breach the extra-dimensional barriers between their world and the world of Earthdawn.

p.138: On the negative side, the surge of magical energy enables dreadful creatures from astral space to cross into the physical world. These creatures are collectively known as the Horrors. At the peak of the magical energy cycle, the Horrors cross into the physical world, laying waste to the land in an orgy of destruction known as the Scourge.

And even in the ingame history section relaying what the First Book of Harrow tells (both should be taken with a grain of salt):

p.23: When the magical aura of this world reaches a certain strength, the Horrors will be able to build mystical bridges between this world and the twisted realm where they dwell. And then the Horrors will come.

It's all about establishing a connection between the worlds, I think nowhere does it say the horrors need a particular magic level to sustain themselves.

Also it is pretty clear that some horrors accessed the world very early. Once again history section, you have the first signs (among them the invae) around 850 years before the Scourge begins. Those are not necessarily the horrors themselves except at the same time:

p.23: From that School groups of adepts and magicians travel across the known world to confront the burgeoning Horrors and learn what they can from those confrontations.

Only one of these scenarios can be true – they’re contradictory. And if SR’s account of events is true, then it contradicts the entire ED campaign setting, as the Horrors wouldn’t have had to leave until the end of the Fourth Age (when they completely ran out of mana), and the people of the Fourth Age would have been stuck in their kaers until for millennia until the magic went away completely.

So is it a contradiction or is there an explanation behind it? Something that could have to do with the manipulation of the mana level, maybe? By the way when I looked up the quotes, since Earthdawn gives 5,000 years for the upcycle instead of 5,200 I thought: Well of course, that's the 200 missing years. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Okay, probably not.

P.S. You might want to have a look at this. It’s an interesting expanded fanon take on a timeline for the previous ages of magic. I stumbled upon it recently in my online searches. I’m really tempted to incorporate this in our House Rules timeline (even the if the dates need a bit of tweaking – he’s rounded it to an even 5,200 years for an Age, when a Mayan Long Count is 5,125.26 years).

I think I might already know it, but I will have a look at it.

[lokii]

As for the Obsidimen, I thought there was also a reference to them but that it was in 3rd ed. We all seem to remember them being in SR somewhere but just not where. Makes me think it exists but who is up for the treasure hunt? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Should be this:

Shadows of Asia p.143: Olkhon Island, Lake Baikal - "rock-beings wandering around"
System Failure p.104 SURGE variant - "a half-ton rock-like changeling"

From here (German though): http://shadowhelix.pegasus.de/Meta:%C3%9Cb...ssover-Verweise

I should really translate this for the Shadowrun wiki on Wikia. Also every few years I come around to remember all the different wrinkles after getting entangled in a forum discussion like this one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) This time I should really take some notes, maybe build a timeline of clues for the central crossover mystery. Also anyone interested in collecting questions for a SR-ED crossover FAQ?

[Sendaz]

don't forget some of the previous work done:

http://danvolodar.ru/ancientfiles/Shadowrun_to_Earthdawn.htm

[JanessaVR]

I should really translate this for the Shadowrun wiki on Wikia. Also every few years I come around to remember all the different wrinkles after getting entangled in a forum discussion like this one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) This time I should really take some notes, maybe build a timeline of clues for the central crossover mystery. Also anyone interested in collecting questions for a SR-ED crossover FAQ?

Yes, I'm interested.

[JanessaVR]

@JanessaVR: I completely understand that you want a working scenario and make choices accordingly, so please note in presenting alternatives I'm not trying to push my reading of the various clues. Also since I'm more interested in the different scenarios that are consistent with the clues (or a subset of them) I also look at the gaps and how they might plausibly be filled. Of course if you get too fanciful with this approach, it will likely become irrelevant, but I suspect some of the missing pieces can be interpolated.

Indeed, as far as I’m concerned, the First Commandment of Setting Design is “Thou Shalt Be Internally Consistent.” You can introduce magic, but it must operate according to a set of coherent, dependable rules. In other words, it must recognize that Magic A is Magic A. In the end, I want to extrapolate a single vison of the mana cycle, the Horrors, and how and when the various metaplanes can be accessed from Earth (some appear to be “near” to Earth, while others like the Deep Metaplanes are “further” away from Earth). If doing so takes sifting through a lot of SR and ED books, well then, it appears I have a good deal of reading ahead of me. Where canon won’t provide this, I’ll make the best judgement I can, trying to respect as much canon as possible in doing so.

It's all about establishing a connection between the worlds, I think nowhere does it say the horrors need a particular magic level to sustain themselves.

Actually, it does. For reference, I’m using the Earthdawn Second Edition core rules book. The sections “Age of Legend” (pp. 7 – 9) and “How it Came to Pass” (pp. 14 – 24) are immediately relevant to this.

“For four hundred years the Horrors roamed the land, devouring all they touched while the people hid in terror, until the slow ebb of the world’s magic forced these loathsome creatures to retreat to the astral pit that spawned them.”

“Those kaers that hold copies of the Throal Book of Tomorrow know the magic ritual that will tell them when they may safely re-enter the world. Those lacking this ritual must guess and hope. The magic itself is basic: a simple ball of True Earth is enchanted and placed over a dish of True Water. The magics of the ritual keep the ball suspended over the water. As the strength of the world’s magical aura wanes, and the Horrors are forced to retreat, the ball of True Earth descends until it finally touches the True Water, and the two mix and neutralize each other.”

So is it a contradiction or is there an explanation behind it? Something that could have to do with the manipulation of the mana level, maybe?

I fail to see how this can’t be a contradiction. The Horrors like coming to Earth to eat/maim/torture/kill everyone and everything. If the lowered mana level didn’t force them to leave, then why did most of them leave? Why not just stick around if the party’s still going on? And most of them did leave – the Scourge was (mostly) over after several centuries, at least enough for people to emerge from hiding. I don't see any reason for them to leave if they weren’t absolutely forced to.

“Though most of the Horrors had left this world, many remained, inflicting cruel anguish and suffering on other living creatures.”

“In 1416 TH, just after the world’s aura has apparently stabilized, the expedition sets sail in the refitted airship, christened the Earthdawn. Its mission lasts almost a year. The battle-scarred Earthdawn returns to Throal with an exhausted but exhilarated crew. Vaare has charted most of Barsaive and found it predominantly free of the Horrors. Those that remain have retreated into pockets of higher magic where they find it easier to exist. Few live in the open. A jubilant Throal prepares to emerge into the world.”

By the way when I looked up the quotes, since Earthdawn gives 5,000 years for the upcycle instead of 5,200 I thought: Well of course, that's the 200 missing years. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Okay, probably not.

Some quick notes on the Mayan Calendar and some relevant SR/ED dates:

1 day = a Kin
20 days = a Winal
360 days = a Tun (18 Winals)
7,200 days = a K’atun (20 Tuns)
144,000 days = a Bak’tun (20 K’atuns)

A “Long Count” is 13 Bak’tuns, or 1,872,000 days. Divided by 365.25 days, this is 5,125.26 years.

The second to last day of the 4th Age was Aug 10, 3114 BCE.....(Long Count Date: 12.19.19.17.19)
The last day of the 4th Age was Aug 11, 3114 BCE....................(Long Count Date: 13.0.0.0.0)

The first day of the 5th Age was Aug 12, 3114 BCE.................(Long Count Date: 0.0.0.0.1)
The second to last day of the 5th Age was Dec 20, 2012 CE.....(Long Count Date: 12.19.19.17.19)
The last day of the 5th Age was Dec 21, 2012 CE....................(Long Count Date: 13.0.0.0.0)

The first day of the 6th Age was Dec 22, 2012 CE.....(Long Count Date: 0.0.0.0.1)

Hope this helps. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jaid]

it could be that horrors can stay, but lose important powers once the mana drops below a certain point... perhaps even the horrors that remain would be even stronger if the mana level was higher.

that could mean the stronger horrors leave (or just the ones less willing to risk being weaker), but also allows for horrors to stay, even in very low magic situations... but most won't.

i mean, imagine if you were normally a powerful being capable of destroying an entire kaer on your own normally... you probably wouldn't much enjoy being made so weak you could only take on half a dozen capable namegivers, or worse yet becoming as weak as a single namegiver.

especially if one of the powers you could lose is the ability to return to your home metaplane. even more so if that means you don't "respawn" when killed.

maybe even certain forms of life are actually the result of horrors staying too long, and permanently losing those powers and becoming regular mortal creatures.

edit: also, i like the idea of there being two monuments keeping the magic level stable somewhere in between the target, not just because it means some fairly absurd things didn't need to happen, but it *also* explains why thera didn't just break the monuments and make new ones. break those monuments and suddenly the horrors come back because now theirs is the only one, and the mana level stabilizes at a level that can fully sustain all the horrors. which presumably the therans realize is not a good thing.

[Sendaz]

Or maybe the Horrors are more organized than we could suspect and they are only granted a set window of time to punch in & out within. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Course that may mean Ysrthgrie was moonlighting by working off Company Time (Horror Inc?) by coming over early just to impress his girl. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[lokii]

Actually, it does. For reference, I’m using the Earthdawn Second Edition core rules book. The sections “Age of Legend” (pp. 7 – 9) and “How it Came to Pass” (pp. 14 – 24) are immediately relevant to this.

“For four hundred years the Horrors roamed the land, devouring all they touched while the people hid in terror, until the slow ebb of the world’s magic forced these loathsome creatures to retreat to the astral pit that spawned them.”

“Those kaers that hold copies of the Throal Book of Tomorrow know the magic ritual that will tell them when they may safely re-enter the world. Those lacking this ritual must guess and hope. The magic itself is basic: a simple ball of True Earth is enchanted and placed over a dish of True Water. The magics of the ritual keep the ball suspended over the water. As the strength of the world’s magical aura wanes, and the Horrors are forced to retreat, the ball of True Earth descends until it finally touches the True Water, and the two mix and neutralize each other.”

Yes, those can also be found in the first edition. Though they do not convey the exact idea that what forces the horrors from the world is that they do not survive a lower mana level. The closest is the other quotation you provided:

"[..] and found it predominantly free of the Horrors. Those that remain have retreated into pockets of higher magic where they find it easier to exist. [..]"

But even "easier to exist" isn't quite cannot exist without.

I fail to see how this can’t be a contradiction.

I think the key to how this might work is the following passage. Should also be in the history section of your second edition:

Navarim believed that magicians could learn to create wards and runes that would "call" to a Horror through magic. Once the Horror examined the rune, its mind would become caught in the magical web and mathematical maze of the rune’s construction. Because the Horror comes from a place deep in the mystical netherworlds, a Horror must always devote some degree of its concentration to keeping itself in this world. A rune entrapping its mind would break the Horror’s concentration and force the thing either to retreat or lose its grasp in this world and be flung back to the pit from whence it came.

So the image presented comes down to probabilities: The number of horrors in the world is mainly dependent on how close the worlds are together, because it determines how easy they cross over. Likely a high mana level also makes it easier for them to maintain themselves, hence the "retreated into pockets of higher magic". If you can cause horrors to break their hold on the physical world faster than they can reenter the number of horrors will diminish even though in principle they can still come in. For the normal mana cycle at some point maintaining themselves becomes too difficult or cumbersome even for the last holdout horrors and since it is very unlikely for them to cross over again, the threat completely vanishes.

Now an interesting question is whether the bridge in the early 21st century would have also made it easier for the horrors to stay in the physical world. But even if not it might increase the probability for entry so much, that it compensates for a higher rate of horrors losing their hold.

As a side note, that's why the shedim are thought to be similar to the horrors. Year of the Comet p.150:

Once a shedim has found its way to our world and entered the astral plane, it cannot voluntarily return to its native plane or the metaplanes. However, the astral forms of shedim seem to be inherently unstable, and they quickly lose power over time. The only way a shedim can remain in this world is by anchoring itself within a body.

And here we go with the speculation. So what about the shortened Scourge, something the Earthdawn and Shadowrun sources agree on? I see two principle explanations:

The solution for locking the mana level included keeping the horrors out, so even though the mana level was balanced right in the middle of the Scourge if everything had worked out as planned the horrors would have been gone. Except they had their countermeasure and that's why some hang out but the Scourge has ended.

There are actually 200 years of the cycle missing, it never reached its normal apex and that's why the Scourge was shorter. Doesn't work as well with the elemental clock but maybe the Therans fiddled with the numbers after all. Once again the missing mana from that 200 years could have been put into locking the mana level.

Some quick notes on the Mayan Calendar and some relevant SR/ED dates:

Okay, this will sound like bragging. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I kinda already built a maya calendar for the first seven decades of the Sixth World:

http://shadowhelix.pegasus.de/Mayakalender...ten_Welt_2010er

And a "calendar app" for the current day (not Shadowrun time) on that calendar:

http://shadowhelix.pegasus.de/Vorlage:NSW-Mayakalender

Both adjusted to a switch date 24 December 2011 (though one could use 12 December).

More to the point the reason I use the 5,200 years is because it is mentioned in Humans & the Cycle of Magic.

[lokii]

don't forget some of the previous work done:

http://danvolodar.ru/ancientfiles/Shadowrun_to_Earthdawn.htm

Of course the Shadowhelix article I linked to builds on the work of the Ancients! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Yes, I'm interested.

So, we could start right here. Or maybe better create a new thread?

it could be that horrors can stay, but lose important powers once the mana drops below a certain point... perhaps even the horrors that remain would be even stronger if the mana level was higher.

I think there is some evidence for that actually. It also works very well with the idea that they have to devote concentration to stay in the world, if a lower mana level means that a horror has to concentrate harder.

Or maybe the Horrors are more organized than we could suspect and they are only granted a set window of time to punch in & out within. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Course that may mean Ysrthgrie was moonlighting by working off Company Time (Horror Inc?) by coming over early just to impress his girl. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Only this soulsucker comes from a deep metaplane?

[JanessaVR]

So, we could start right here. Or maybe better create a new thread?

I'd much prefer we started a new thread dedicated to that. This has been something of a huge (but very informative) digression here, but I still have some hope of getting back to actually discussing the construction of "always on" magic items in the Sixth World.

EDIT: Done, I've started a new thread for this.

[JanessaVR]

Course that may mean Ysrthgrie was moonlighting by working off Company Time (Horror Inc?) by coming over early just to impress his girl. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Just when you thought your old boyfriend was bad news...

[JanessaVR]

Yes, those can also be found in the first edition. Though they do not convey the exact idea that what forces the horrors from the world is that they do not survive a lower mana level. The closest is the other quotation you provided:

But even "easier to exist" isn't quite cannot exist without.

I think you’re splitting hairs here. Looking at my quotes from ED core rules, they’re rather obviously saying that the Horrors need a certain level of mana to survive. Fish don’t exactly do well out of water, humans can’t breathe well at very high altitudes, and the Horrors need mana.

I think the key to how this might work is the following passage. Should also be in the history section of your second edition:

So the image presented comes down to probabilities: The number of horrors in the world is mainly dependent on how close the worlds are together, because it determines how easy they cross over. Likely a high mana level also makes it easier for them to maintain themselves, hence the "retreated into pockets of higher magic". If you can cause horrors to break their hold on the physical world faster than they can reenter the number of horrors will diminish even though in principle they can still come in. For the normal mana cycle at some point maintaining themselves becomes too difficult or cumbersome even for the last holdout horrors and since it is very unlikely for them to cross over again, the threat completely vanishes.

Now an interesting question is whether the bridge in the early 21st century would have also made it easier for the horrors to stay in the physical world. But even if not it might increase the probability for entry so much, that it compensates for a higher rate of horrors losing their hold.

As a side note, that's why the Shedim are thought to be similar to the horrors. Year of the Comet p.150:

That whole “mind-disrupting rune” idea was mentioned only once, and then never again (as far I’ve read). Personally, I think it sounds like a rather woolly idea that probably went precisely nowhere in Theran R&D, and was quietly dropped. Rather like one of those “spinning hypnotic disc” things that cheap stage magicians use – “Yes, look at it, gaze into its depths…you are hypnotized!”. Give me the good, solid wards of the Rites of Protection and Passage over that any day of the week.

Looking at this in SR terms (as I’m an SR gamer with an interest in its intersection with the ED world, as opposed to the other way around), spirits from the Deep Metaplanes suffer from Evanescence on Earth; both the Invae and the Shedim suffer from this and deal with it in the same way – Possession/Inhabitation of living hosts to anchor themselves on Earth. We don’t see the Horrors doing this now, so a reasonable conclusion from the facts at hand is that the Horrors are (at least predominantly) Materialization spirits, their home metaplane is much further away than that of the Invae or the Shedim, and when the mana level is high enough, it negates the Evanescence Critter Weakness, allowing them to freely Materialize on Earth.

So when the mana level is high, the Horrors can “breathe” just fine, but as it lowers, they increasingly find themselves in “thinner atmosphere.” Much like humans can adjust to functioning (at diminished performance levels) at higher altitudes over time, there’s a limit. As I’ve said, Earth at not even a century past the Awakening must be just above vacuum for them, which in their case translates to forcible disruption and banishment back to their home plane if any of them somehow made it through to Earth (and tried to leave the “spike point” area of higher mana they crossed over at).

And here we go with the speculation. So what about the shortened Scourge, something the Earthdawn and Shadowrun sources agree on? I see two principle explanations:

The solution for locking the mana level included keeping the horrors out, so even though the mana level was balanced right in the middle of the Scourge if everything had worked out as planned the horrors would have been gone. Except they had their countermeasure and that's why some hang out but the Scourge has ended.

There are actually 200 years of the cycle missing, it never reached its normal apex and that's why the Scourge was shorter. Doesn't work as well with the elemental clock but maybe the Therans fiddled with the numbers after all. Once again the missing mana from that 200 years could have been put into locking the mana level.

I’ve already presented my analysis of the facts in a previous post here, and absent some new canon references with more information I didn’t have before (like the Horrors' tower in Vasgothia), I’m sticking to it. That is the most simple and elegant solution I can come up with, given the canon material I have to work with.

Okay, this will sound like bragging. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I kinda already built a Mayan calendar for the first seven decades of the Sixth World:

http://shadowhelix.pegasus.de/Mayakalender...ten_Welt_2010er

And a "calendar app" for the current day (not Shadowrun time) on that calendar:

http://shadowhelix.pegasus.de/Vorlage:NSW-Mayakalender

Both adjusted to a switch date 24 December 2011 (though one could use 12 December).

More to the point the reason I use the 5,200 years is because it is mentioned in Humans & the Cycle of Magic.

That’s some work you’ve put into that, but all the sources I’ve referenced put the start of the Sixth World in 2012, not 2011. I’m so used to correcting the SR timeline this way, I don’t even think about it anymore.

I’ve got a nice little app on my phone that shows the current Mayan Calendar date, and lets me play around to look up other dates as well. It also agrees with 2012 Sixth Age start (or I’d have uninstalled it).

So, I don’t use the 5,200 year figure – I’ll put in the extra effort as necessary to be as accurate as I can be. An Age is 1,872,000 days exactly. Again, canon seems to disagree (in some places), so I’m overruling canon in this instance.

[lokii]

I think you’re splitting hairs here. Looking at my quotes from ED core rules, they’re rather obviously saying that the Horrors need a certain level of mana to survive. Fish don’t exactly do well out of water, humans can’t breathe well at very high altitudes, and the Horrors need mana.

I don't think I am. "[U]ntil the slow ebb of the world’s magic forced these loathsome creatures to retreat" and "As the strength of the world’s magical aura wanes, and the Horrors are forced to retreat" are certainly not contradicting the idea that what makes them leave is their inability to survive a lower mana level but it does not outright say it. (Having difficulty to maintain their connection would also mean they are forced out.) But I concede that this might be the intention.

Anyway the overall observation is that the whole idea of a rising mana level making it possible for horrors to cross over into the physical world when they could not before is not just in Shadowrun but also right there in the first Earthdawn book. Though it doesn't quite use the same imagery of increasing and decreasing world distance. As happened several times to me already in this thread (hence the FAQ) I was wrong here and yes I should have looked deeper into it:

ED: I think the whole idea of a distance between the worlds will not be found in Earthdawn. Though I would have to look much deeper into it to be certain.

And maybe those concepts are complementary but it could also be the case that Earthdawn simply contradicts itself.

That whole “mind-disrupting rune” idea was mentioned only once, and then never again (as far I’ve read). Personally, I think it sounds like a rather woolly idea that probably went precisely nowhere in Theran R&D, and was quietly dropped. Rather like one of those “spinning hypnotic disc” things that cheap stage magicians use – “Yes, look at it, gaze into its depths…you are hypnotized!”. Give me the good, solid wards of the Rites of Protection and Passage over that any day of the week.

I don't know about the mind-disruption but runes were definitely a vital component in the multi-layered defense of a kaer. If you go to the section "Race to the Shelters" in the history chapter:

Other cities become fantastic citadels, with hand-written runic phrases carefully inscribed on every bit of masonry in the city.

And I'm pretty sure there is at least another book that had some information on kaer construction that brings runes up. Once again not sure about horrors having to devote concentration coming up in another book.

So when the mana level is high, the Horrors can “breathe” just fine, but as it lowers, they increasingly find themselves in “thinner atmosphere.”

The breathing analogy is used in Horrors. The book could be the most clear statement on horror high mana dependency for survival. Though I will note that it is stated ingame and is called a hypothesis. In a sense there is not even that much contradiction because whether their hold on the world is slipping away or the absence of mana hurts them comes to the same conclusion and also leaves the same kind of wiggle room.

I should ask does your decision to go with the high mana need for survival mean that the horrors can enter the Sixth World at any time but just don't chose to do so because that would kill them?

That’s some work you’ve put into that

Was just some eye candy for a different project though. And I did the calendar because back then I thought well I know how this works right now, why not put that to use, before I forget it.

but all the sources I’ve referenced put the start of the Sixth World in 2012, not 2011. I’m so used to correcting the SR timeline this way, I don’t even think about it anymore.

The new sources yes. Just another piece of alternate history that I personally think should be preserved. I'm certainly not shifting the Year of Chaos to 2012. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[JanessaVR]

Ugh. Again, sorry for response delay. Work got a bit intense for a couple of days.

I don't think I am. "[U]ntil the slow ebb of the world’s magic forced these loathsome creatures to retreat" and "As the strength of the world’s magical aura wanes, and the Horrors are forced to retreat" are certainly not contradicting the idea that what makes them leave is their inability to survive a lower mana level but it does not outright say it. (Having difficulty to maintain their connection would also mean they are forced out.) But I concede that this might be the intention.

Anyway the overall observation is that the whole idea of a rising mana level making it possible for horrors to cross over into the physical world when they could not before is not just in Shadowrun but also right there in the first Earthdawn book. Though it doesn't quite use the same imagery of increasing and decreasing world distance. As happened several times to me already in this thread (hence the FAQ) I was wrong here and yes I should have looked deeper into it:

I’m personally inclined to correlate the mana level with the “distance” of the metaplanes. Mana comes from astral space / the metaplanes, and so the mana level rises as they get closer. But – teeny little problem – when the Deep Metaplanes finally get “close” enough to Earth...well, magic’s super-strong, but your new next door neighbors are really the worst sort of people, and those loud parties at 2am are the least of your worries.

I don't know about the mind-disruption but runes were definitely a vital component in the multi-layered defense of a kaer. If you go to the section "Race to the Shelters" in the history chapter:

And I'm pretty sure there is at least another book that had some information on kaer construction that brings runes up. Once again not sure about horrors having to devote concentration coming up in another book.

Yes, they mention runes, but they’re not explicitly described as the hypothetical (and not necessarily ever developed) “mind-disruption” runes. Absent some more explicit statements, I’m going to assume those were merely standard warding runes that were part of the Rites of Protection and Passage.

The breathing analogy is used in Horrors. The book could be the most clear statement on horror high mana dependency for survival. Though I will note that it is stated ingame and is called a hypothesis. In a sense there is not even that much contradiction because whether their hold on the world is slipping away or the absence of mana hurts them comes to the same conclusion and also leaves the same kind of wiggle room.

I should ask does your decision to go with the high mana need for survival mean that the horrors can enter the Sixth World at any time but just don't chose to do so because that would kill them?

Not quite. Earth’s out of reach for them now, and will be for another 2 millennia or so. But if someone, say, the Azzies, go to a whole lot of trouble, and commit enough blood sacrifices to enable the Horrors to build a “bridge” to cross over to the Sixth World (2070-ish), then they could arrive early. But, that zone of high mana at the “spike point” is a finite area, and beyond it is the much lower mana level of the rest of the Sixth World. Any Horrors that crossed over to Earth at that point would be like dangerous sharks in an aquarium – inside the tank, they’re deadly as hell, but if they jump outside of it, they’ll die pretty soon from suffocation. That’s not to say it still wouldn’t be a catastrophe. If a big-time Horror crossed over, it could Mark everyone in the immediate vicinity, and then order them to start bussing in truck-loads of more people to Mark. Even if it’s stuck in a relatively small zone, its Marked minions are not…

[Sengir]

If the ED account of events is true, then lower mana levels = the Horrors must leave for home, as they can’t endure them. If the SR account of events is true, then lower mana levels = only a problem if you want to actually summon the Horrors early in the game, and once they arrive they can survive just fine in a mana level not even one century past the Awakening. Only one of these scenarios can be true – they’re contradictory.

The ED setting is that Horrors are forced to leave at lower mana levels -- that this is due to the horrors not being able to exist at lower levels is inference both by in-character sources and the readers.

[lokii]

The metaplot of Earthdawn was discussed on RPGnet and Josh Harrison (Mataxes), current Earthdawn line developer for FASA Games, presented the backstory to the Theran Empire. I think this might be instructive. He was already line developer when he made the post and it is probably reflective of the people currently working (though not very fast) on Earthdawn: https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?766512...36#post19464036 (BTW: No mention of the "Horror beacon".)

Further even for him this is guesswork to some degree (link):

One of the issues over the years ED has bounced around from place to place is some of the background stuff was never really written down or made explicit. (At least, that I've seen.) And so later devs (myself included) are doing the best we can with the clues and hints laid out in the original published works.

Another interesting tidbit comes from Lou Prosperi. He seems to assume that the artificial mana level would have been sustained until the end of Fourth Age: (link)

One minor point, ED was set roughly 7,000 years ago, just after the half-way point of the magically active cycle (the up cycle is you will) prior to the SR magic cycle. However, that still leaves roughly 2,500 years during which the magic level has been artificially sustained, and that, combined with the cataclysmic changes that came with the sudden disappearance of magic could result in all sorts of wierd changes in the world.