Earthdawn Airships in the Sixth World, And other “always on” magical items – how to create them? Options

[Sengir]

Except in Shadowrun they have room temperature superconductors

You happen to have a reference for that? Because I was just looking for it the other day...

[lokii]

You happen to have a reference for that? Because I was just looking for it the other day...

I can offer one: Shadows of Asia, p. 132

One pet project [of Z-IC Russia] is the production of room temperature superconductors, which often use Russian metallurgical expertise to turn the lanthanides and other rare earth metals into workable alloys.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Except in Shadowrun they have room temperature superconductors and fusion reactors. As we all know hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe and therefore you have an almost endless supply of fuel.

Hydrogen being abundant in no way, shape, or form obviates the tyranny of the rocket equation. A generator that just turns magic into electricity has a hydrogen fusion generator beat hands-down when you're out in the black and getting hydrogen is no simple task.

Oh, and you also have to counter the level 12 mana void to make your generator work. Kind of a bummer about that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Compared to storing cryonic hydrogen over very long durations? That's easy.

[JanessaVR]

Oh, and you also have to counter the level 12 mana void to make your generator work. Kind of a bummer about that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

True, but as ShadowDragon8685 points out, the benefits are enormous. The item's Force would need to be (whatever's required to supply the amount of electricity you need + 12), to maintain desired functionality in the mana void of outer space. Probably a bitch to pull off, but you could keep trading that thing between spaceships for generations, as newer models became available, and never have to worry about a power supply.

[Mantis]

Of course that all assumes that mana levels peak and fall at the same rate through the solar system. Or that it even extends beyond Near Earth Orbit. We can presume it does but there isn't much to support that idea. Does the Mars base have magic? I know Ares conducts bug experiments on at least one of their orbital platforms but that is still in earth orbit.

[JanessaVR]

Of course that all assumes that mana levels peak and fall at the same rate through the solar system. Or that it even extends beyond Near Earth Orbit. We can presume it does but there isn't much to support that idea. Does the Mars base have magic? I know Ares conducts bug experiments on at least one of their orbital platforms but that is still in earth orbit.

Oh, I'll give you that. Any house ruling in either direction will be pretty much fanon (unless someone can provide a canon reference otherwise). The furthest out that magic has been done in canon (that I can recall) is on the moon (SR4 Street Magic, p. 120).

[lokii]

Of course that all assumes that mana levels peak and fall at the same rate through the solar system. Or that it even extends beyond Near Earth Orbit.

It doesn't. There is effectively no mana in space, it's classified as a mana void. That's why you can be seriously harmed if you go beyond the boundaries of the gaiasphere.

Does the Mars base have magic?

The thing is life attracts mana, no life usually no mana. So it may depend on whether Mars has some small amount of life on it, that creates a manasphere similar to that of Earth. Of course maybe planets always have a living aura independent of being actually inhabitated. There is one reference for the astral space of Mars as far as I remember that implies there is mana: State of the Art: 2063 p. 161:

The astral observations of their [mars exploration missions'] Awakened specialist, on the other hand, are a hot topic among experts worldwide.

(They probably wouldn't regard it a hot topic, if it was just another void.) But I don't think that idea has been expanded on since. Though unless it gets retconned artificial structures on Mars are canon, so maybe someone made it to Mars in prehistoric time, which might imply mana is available there.

I know Ares conducts bug experiments on at least one of their orbital platforms but that is still in earth orbit.

I presume you mean "Eden". Ares isn't actually conducting experiments there. But uses it as an isolated staging ground for incursions into the metaplane Hive. (Short story in Street Magic.) And in Earth orbit doesn't say much, the question is how far out is the orbit? Eden is on Daedalus which in turn is located in L4 of the Earth-Moon system. As a comparison L4 has the same orbit as the moon, so well outside the gaiasphere. But Eden contains dense vegetation and that life creates a small manasphere which is why they can operate from there.

Oh, I'll give you that. Any house ruling in either direction will be pretty much fanon (unless someone can provide a canon reference otherwise). The furthest out that magic has been done in canon (that I can recall) is on the moon (SR4 Street Magic, p. 120).

Well you can attempt to do magic in any environment even in the mana void of space. It's just likely to get you killed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jaid]

of course, any spaceship is likely to want to have some sort of garden area on it if it is large enough regardless of whether you want to get rid of a mana void, so for a large enough spaceship (that is, large enough to have garden areas impressive enough to reduce the impact of the mana void) the infinite electricity generator could potentially be useful.

[ShadowDragon8685]

of course, any spaceship is likely to want to have some sort of garden area on it if it is large enough regardless of whether you want to get rid of a mana void, so for a large enough spaceship (that is, large enough to have garden areas impressive enough to reduce the impact of the mana void) the infinite electricity generator could potentially be useful.

WARNING: Do not predicate the efficiency of your magical perpetual spacecraft power generator on having a manasphere aboard the ship. If it can't function in a total mana void (IE, having a Force of 13+,) don't bet your ass on it, because you're one good planet plague away from freezing to death in the hulk of a powerless spaceship.

[Jaid]

WARNING: Do not predicate the efficiency of your magical perpetual spacecraft power generator on having a manasphere aboard the ship. If it can't function in a total mana void (IE, having a Force of 13+,) don't bet your ass on it, because you're one good planet plague away from freezing to death in the hulk of a powerless spaceship.

if all the plants die, so did your main source of food and air.

running out of power at that point is certainly not going to make things any better, but it is unlikely that you were going to survive the loss of your oxygen generation system regardless.

[JanessaVR]

if all the plants die, so did your main source of food and air.

running out of power at that point is certainly not going to make things any better, but it is unlikely that you were going to survive the loss of your oxygen generation system regardless.

It's entirely possible to have a purely electric-powered air scrubber (thought the plants will certainly make things nicer). As for food, it depends on how far you're going and how many people are on-board; preserved rations might suffice just fine.

[Mantis]

It's entirely possible to have a purely electric-powered air scrubber (thought the plants will certainly make things nicer). As for food, it depends on how far you're going and how many people are on-board; preserved rations might suffice just fine.

Well if you've run out of mana to power your spelljammer (cuz the plants died), uh I mean artifact powered space craft, all that is going to do is prolong the inevitable. No power means you will die.

[JanessaVR]

Well if you've run out of mana to power your spelljammer (cuz the plants died), uh I mean artifact powered space craft, all that is going to do is prolong the inevitable. No power means you will die.

No, the whole point is that if the item has Force 13+, then it still works in a full -12 mana void (that's with no plants anywhere in sight).

[Mantis]

No, the whole point is that if the item has Force 13+, then it still works in a full -12 mana void (that's with no plants anywhere in sight).

Yeah but how much power are you going to get out of something that is effectively rating 1? Or maybe I just don't think having a bunch of rating 13+ artifacts to be a very likely thing. Karma cost to create, resources needed, hell even the formula creation test are going to be just astronomical. If someone manages to make one how likely are they to just stick it on a space ship where it drops to rating 1? (or 2 or 3 but the thresholds to make those are craaaazy).

[JanessaVR]

Yeah but how much power are you going to get out of something that is effectively rating 1? Or maybe I just don't think having a bunch of rating 13+ artifacts to be a very likely thing. Karma cost to create, resources needed, hell even the formula creation test are going to be just astronomical. If someone manages to make one how likely are they to just stick it on a space ship where it drops to rating 1? (or 2 or 3 but the thresholds to make those are craaaazy).

So you need a high-level initiate. It still could be done.

[Tanegar]

So you need a high-level initiate. It still could be done.

Or a working group of several mid-grade initiates (yay, Teamwork tests!).

[Sendaz]

Yeah but how much power are you going to get out of something that is effectively rating 1? Or maybe I just don't think having a bunch of rating 13+ artifacts to be a very likely thing. Karma cost to create, resources needed, hell even the formula creation test are going to be just astronomical. If someone manages to make one how likely are they to just stick it on a space ship where it drops to rating 1? (or 2 or 3 but the thresholds to make those are craaaazy).

So you need a high-level initiate. It still could be done.

Maybe if we bribe a certain IE to do it.

Maybe even name it the U.S.S. Harlequin? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[lokii]

Didn't Shadowrun 5 extend the background count scala down to -24?

Also just want to take note here, the thread has outgrown its own ambitions by discussing Earthdawn Spaceships in the Sixth World. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mantis]

Didn't Shadowrun 5 extend the background count scala down to -24?

Fortunately for JanessaVR, she plays 4th ed where the background counts are still something a high level initiate can handle.

Also just want to take note here, the thread has outgrown its own ambitions by discussing Earthdawn Spaceships in the Sixth World. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yeah, never know where these things are going to go. But really once you start discussing what is effectively a perpetual motion machine, you may as well take it to its logical conclusion. Space travel.

[JanessaVR]

Fortunately for JanessaVR, she plays 4th ed where the background counts are still something a high level initiate can handle.

If they've doubled that in 5th, well, I guess retreat into space Kaers is looking even better as a future option to hide from the Horrors (if you're using 5e).

Yeah, never know where these things are going to go. But really once you start discussing what is effectively a perpetual motion machine, you may as well take it to its logical conclusion. Space travel.

Indeed. And there's always that might-have-been Mars colony from the Fourth Age rumor that pops up every now and again, mainly in the old books, where various people claim to have photos of old metahuman skeletons or rock carvings on Mars. Truthfully, I'm not really sure if there's any solid canon reference to using high-level magic to travel the solar system anywhere in the older SR or ED books. If anyone has a specific reference for such, please let me know.

[lokii]

If they've doubled that in 5th, well, I guess retreat into space Kaers is looking even better as a future option to hide from the Horrors (if you're using 5e).

Well, I'm not sure the relationship between Horrors and mana voids is as straight forward as one might think. But who knows.

Indeed. And there's always that might-have-been Mars colony from the Fourth Age rumor that pops up every now and again, mainly in the old books, where various people claim to have photos of old metahuman skeletons or rock carvings on Mars. Truthfully, I'm not really sure if there's any solid canon reference to using high-level magic to travel the solar system anywhere in the older SR or ED books. If anyone has a specific reference for such, please let me know.

It comes down to two things: (Once again could be retconned in the future.) There really are pyramids and a skeleton on Mars, Missions establishes that. And there is an obscure reference in Threats 2 p.43 about the origins of the possibly bogus book of Gaf:

[..] claims that the book is an artifact of the theorized "Fourth World," and that it was written by Atlanteans who traveled to the stars after some sort of great cataclysm.

The claims come from Mike Nickson, cult leader and wanted international artifact thief. So ...

[JanessaVR]

Well, I'm not sure the relationship between Horrors and mana voids is as straight forward as one might think. But who knows.

Well, they retreat when the mana levels get too low to sustain them, so as long as space is a total mana void, it seems pretty darn straightforward to me.

It comes down to two things: (Once again could be retconned in the future.) There really are pyramids and a skeleton on Mars, Missions establishes that. And there is an obscure reference in Threats 2 p.43 about the origins of the possibly bogus book of Gaf:

Really? Do you remember which Missions specifically? I have all of the SR4 Missions from DriveThruRPG, but I've only looked through a few of them (I tend to concentrate more on usable sourcebooks for character and setting construction).

[lokii]

Well, they retreat when the mana levels get too low to sustain them, so as long as space is a total mana void, it seems pretty darn straightforward to me.

I would have to read up on this, but I think it was implied that foveae (also voids) are connected to corruption. There are first mentioned in the Aztlan sourcebook.

Really? Do you remember which Missions specifically? I have all of the SR4 Missions from DriveThruRPG, but I've only looked through a few of them (I tend to concentrate more on usable sourcebooks for character and setting construction).

I mean the adventure set Missions: http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Source:Missions

[JanessaVR]

I would have to read up on this, but I think it was implied that foveae (also voids) are connected to corruption. There are first mentioned in the Aztlan sourcebook.

I believe the speculation was that they were side effects of all the blood magic and sacrificing the psycho Azzies were doing to build Mr. Darke's bridge to the Horrors' deep metaplane. I don't believe the implication was that any Horrors were actually living in them.

I mean the adventure set Missions: http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Source:Missions

I'll go have a look, thanks.

[Jaid]

plants have a proven track record of scrubbing CO2 out of the air that goes back hundreds of millions of years. they are extremely reliable, and won't break down just because a part got worn out. they do not require that you carry extra parts, and they are also good at reclaiming other waste products. they additionally provide valuable resources including food, building materials, fabric, medicine, and even some recreational drugs.

if you're going to go someplace so far into deep space that a small-scale infinite power source is worth the investment described (and therefore are not within range to get any replacement parts for machines), then why would you use anything other than plants to keep your air supply clean?

(i can certainly understand wanting to have emergency backup systems to rapidly replenish air supplies, but for the long haul, it really just makes sense to use plants).