Quick Question About Ghostwalker, I know I saw this somewhere, but can't find it again Options

[JanessaVR]

It was shortly after his takeover of Denver, he more or less magically grabbed a group of Azzie representatives (IIRC), and then not-quite-teleported them kilometers away in an instant. I think it was during a press conference or something.

Does anyone know what book that was in? I've checked like 2 dozen SR3 and SR4 books and can't remember where I read that. Argh...

Anyhow, thanks much if anyone remembers what book this was in.

[Sendaz]

Actually it was not GW who did the deed so much as Peri,

StormFront Pg 87-88

> Yes and no; he’s been arrested for summoning a spirit, which is now legally the same thing. Upon
his re-emergence back in March, Ghostwalker outlawed the spontaneous summoning, binding, and
banishing of spirits in Denver, punishable by expulsion or impris- onment. Needless to say, this
was a big deal to all of the region’s mages. It’s frankly an insane law, and this is the most
dramatic and public example I’ve seen of it actually being enforced.
> Ethernaut

> It was She of the City, not Ghostwalker, with whom this decree originated. I shall see what the
spirits of Denver think of this law’s “sanity,” and the “sanity” of the alternative, now that I
have arrived in Denver.
> Axis Mundi

> What about the treason part? That seems rather old school. Must be referring to that Aztechnology
thing, right?
> Kane

> Aztechnology thing?
> Pistons

> When the Second Treaty of Denver was supposed to be renewed, Ghostwalker made his sudden
reappearance and was eyeing the Aztechnology delegation like they were standing on a buffet table.
Perianwyr put himself between Ghostwalker and the AZT executives, and then transported them out of
Denver and back to Las Cruces. [Link]
> Kay St. Irregular

> I’d add “via a magical effect not yet understood by the thaumaturgical community at large” to
that description.
> Winterhawk

> If this is retaliation for that, it’s certainly taken Ghostwalker a while to get around to it.
Then again, these are dragons we’re talking about. They play the long game.
> Frosty

Perianwyr was taken in to the ZDF headquarters in the Hub,
sedated, in chains, and contained in a dragon-sized manacoffin
shortly before noon this morning. He was actually taken into
custody in an abandoned park in the Aurora Warrens just after
midnight; Zone Defense Force special forces and mages sprung
an ambush on him, throwing a net over the poor dragon and
overwhelming him with a barrage of stun spells, large animal
tranquilizers, and taser rounds.

> I’ve seen some of the pirate news footage, and they had scrambled
serious attack helicopters as well. By staying on the ground
and not taking to the air, I think Perianwyr made the choice to go
in alive rather than risk getting geeked by air-to-air missiles and
autocannon fire. Trusting of him, but tangling with a squad of
choppers isn’t a great alternative.
> Rigger X

> I had been wondering what it takes to arrest a dragon. Honestly,
I’m a bit underwhelmed.
> Stone

> Keep in mind that besides being much younger than Ghostwalker,
by all accounts, Perianwyr hasn’t worked the shadows as an
assassin in decades. I can forgive him for getting a bit soft. Poor
guy just loves music.
> Kat o’ Nine Tales

> What the hell was Perry doing in the Aurora Warrens at that time
of night? I thought he’d been very careful to watch his step around
the Front Range Free Zone after pissing off Ghostwalker?
> Bull

> You mean because back in March you thought about taking a crack
at him yourself? Anyway, word on the street is that a shadow
team—maybe from out of town—kidnapped one of Evan Perry’s
acts and used them as bait to lure the dragon out.
> Mika

> Maybe Trish Scallinger of The Latch-Key Kids. They’re not officially
signed to Peri’s label, but tabloid gossip has her romantically
linked to the dragon.
> Sunshine

> Word on the street, Mika? Since when did you hang around
Denver?
> Ma’fan

> Believe me, omae, you have more important things to worry about
than where I spend my time.
> Mika

Since being taken into custody, Perianwyr has been denied
either visitors or bail. This means Ghostwalker can keep him
bottled up pretty much indefinitely before getting together whatever
kangaroo court he believes in appropriate. Peri’s contacts in
the music industry, from promoters to club managers to artists,
are very unhappy, but for the most part they are staying tight
lipped about it except in the company of each other. Publicly
denouncing a dragon like Ghostwalker, let alone retaliating,
is way out of their league. For my part, I’m fucking pissed.
Perianwyr’s one of the good guys as far as I’m concerned, and no,
I don’t just mean “for a dragon.”
Whatever his reasons for bailing out these Aztechnology
guys, they don’t change that. The best I can do for right now is
make this injustice known. I don’t expect anyone with any real
clout in Denver to care what I think, but Ghostwalker is way out
of line this time.
> Of course, this concerns a far larger circle than Perianwyr’s friends
and acquaintances. If even a powerful and connected dragon can
be arrested for unauthorized spirit summoning, what does it
mean for the thousands of run-of-the-mill wage mages operating
in Denver? Are non-spirits really becoming second-class citizens?
> Cosmo

> More importantly, what does it mean for the hundreds of mages
and adepts in Denver’s Awakened shadow community, who
have even less protection from Ghostwalker’s wrath? I wasn’t
paying enough attention, but I am now. An enforced ban on spirit
summoning is a big change in the balance of power.
> Lyran

Given that Peri was charged with illegal summoning (along with treason) this may be a case of he used a spirit to whisk them away, maybe in a Movement/Guard style but on a big ass scale, though some threads have argued other effects in play.

[JanessaVR]

Thanks much! I could not remember where I'd read that, and apparently I did mis-remember the facts.

[Bull]

I never quite got to put this in anywhere, but officially, it was neither teleport nor a movement ability, sort of. What he did was have a spirit with the... Astral Gateway? Is that the name? The power that lets you physically enter the metaplanes. Basically, he zapped into a metaplane, was able to travel through there where the laws of physics and time were a little different, and exit back out.

(As a note, I didn't write the Storm Front bit, but since I've done the majority of Peri's writing over the years, I wanted to work up a viable answer to this. I think originally the author was thinking just a high power levitation/fly ability, but forgot a zero or something on the math.)

[Wakshaani]

It should also be noted that this was a one-off trick that you won't be seeing again. It nuzzled too close to one of the Golden Rules of Shadowrun magic. Peri used a one-shot Thing to manage it, so you know it was all KINDS of important to him.

The real question then becomes: "Why was this so important?"

Now *that's* a fun one to chew on.

[Beta]

Thanks for both the question and answers on this – I’d had no clue about that proclamation in Denver or the difficulties that Peri was/is in.

I swear this game almost needs something like a .pdf ‘annual summary’ that would catch all of the high points. I can’t imagine very many people have bought every product over the years, and there is just so much, scattered through so many products. I find it somewhat overwhelming after a couple of years of playing fifth -- and I played during first edition and had at least kept an eye on what was on the shelves through big D’s election and assassination, so at least I had a basis to start from.

I know there is the wiki, but it is pretty short on info from more recent years. I’m not sure if that has been shortage of volunteers or issues with what is considered legit to post there without having copyright issues.

[sk8bcn]

Why not raising funds for a Shadowrun bible (kind of)?

I would crowdfund such a book (imagine a 500-600 pages HUGE book) which every entry illustrated, by thematic.


It would be a dream (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[bannockburn]

Astral Gateway? Is that the name? The power that lets you physically enter the metaplanes. Basically, he zapped into a metaplane, was able to travel through there where the laws of physics and time were a little different, and exit back out.

Yeah. That's not really how that power works. Except in my very own house rules.

Astral Gateway
Type: M • Action: Complex • Range: LOS (A) • Duration: Sustained
The spirit can open an astral rift (p. 116), forcing all physical objects within the area to be dual natured, as well as allowing even mundanes to astrally project. The astral rift can connect to any metaplane the spirit can visit itself (so while a fire elemental can probably open a rift to the Plane of Fire, it probably can’t open a rift to The Hive).

Emphasis mine.
Forced astral projection always meant (in the official rules at least) that you left your body behind where you were sucked into an astral gateway of whatever kind.

The exception to that is an old-ass ability from Earthdawn, where a certain class at a certain level was able to do that for themselves only. And even then it's not instant.
Furthermore, no-one seems to have any particular influence over how time works on metaplanes anyways.

The writer made a mistake, just as so many of the things in Storm Front are unfounded in actual established fluff and crunch.

Oh and before it comes up: I consider "but dragons" a very cheap cop-out.

[Sendaz]

This is why there was several threads debating this some time back on other forums, as all the current powers as attributed in SR simply couldn't do what Peri did.

This is not the only example. Early on, will have to dig up the exact book later, Ares talks about fireteams going on bug hunts in other metaplanes and the use of heavy weaponry was implied.
How did this happen? Because normally only true weapon foci would go with a projected form and the talk made it seem like the teams were physically entering other realms with their mundane gear.

So it would seem there is an Advanced Form of Astral Gateway somewhere, but not for the likes of us.
Although with the Fae Court book coming soon, this may be changing.

[Prime Mover]

Been few instances of immortal elves appearing or disappearing. Never sure if this was a teleport or vanishing effect. Vanish ability has always been vague as to where actually go when used. IIRC Earlier editions had an astral gateway power that allowed physical entrance into astral? After 5 editions hard to keep details straight.

Edit: Are charecters in dragon heart trilogy physically transported to meta planes?

[Prime Mover]

Spirit power endowment allow transfer of ability of planear travel?

Edit: Able to physically enter astral rifts, mention in 3rd edition of people wandering into them getting lost.

[JanessaVR]

I never quite got to put this in anywhere, but officially, it was neither teleport nor a movement ability, sort of. What he did was have a spirit with the... Astral Gateway? Is that the name? The power that lets you physically enter the metaplanes. Basically, he zapped into a metaplane, was able to travel through there where the laws of physics and time were a little different, and exit back out.

And this is exactly the type of "pseudo-teleportation" that I've argued ought to be present at least a bit more often in Shadowrun, given what we've seen of astral space. Tricky to pull off, but darned handy if you can.

[JanessaVR]

Oh and before it comes up: I consider "but dragons" a very cheap cop-out.

Well, I'm with you there. I have a very "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" attitude about RPGs. That is, I despise it when game developers taunt you with cool NPC-only stuff. "Oooh! Look at this! Isn't this just so cool? It's unbelievably awesome and looks great as well! Would you like it? Huh, would you? HA-HA! Too bad! It's only for NPCs, so you can look, but not touch! Losers..."

So, if you put it in the game, don't tell me I can't have it. You can tell me it'll take 100 years and 1,000 KP of effort, but don't put it in the game and then tell me I can't have it.

[Wakshaani]

Well, I'm with you there. I have a very "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" attitude about RPGs. That is, I despise it when game developers taunt you with cool NPC-only stuff. "Oooh! Look at this! Isn't this just so cool? It's unbelievably awesome and looks great as well! Would you like it? Huh, would you? HA-HA! Too bad! It's only for NPCs, so you can look, but not touch! Losers..."

So, if you put it in the game, don't tell me I can't have it. You can tell me it'll take 100 years and 1,000 KP of effort, but don't put it in the game and then tell me I can't have it.

I'm on your side on this one, tho there are some powers I'll give to certain critters that a PC can't really have unless they're, you know, that critter.

But that 'poof' Peri did will never be seen again.

[bannockburn]

Well, I'm with you there. I have a very "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" attitude about RPGs. That is, I despise it when game developers taunt you with cool NPC-only stuff. "Oooh! Look at this! Isn't this just so cool? It's unbelievably awesome and looks great as well! Would you like it? Huh, would you? HA-HA! Too bad! It's only for NPCs, so you can look, but not touch! Losers..."

So, if you put it in the game, don't tell me I can't have it. You can tell me it'll take 100 years and 1,000 KP of effort, but don't put it in the game and then tell me I can't have it.

I'm pretty okay with certain powers only being available for NPCs, but they shouldn't just be made of pure handwavium.

What's important to me is that established fluff (and corresponding crunch) are respected.
There are a few rules of magic, and one of them is "There is no teleportation".
I'm cool with Movement as a power, or highly rated levitation spells, or even a combination thereof. But some things tick off my grognardism, e.g. when even a cursory calculation reveals that there is no way that something should have worked in the frameset given by the rules (as is the case with a 1min travel time for ~500 miles, at least without the recipient going splat in a spectacular way).

But that 'poof' Peri did will never be seen again.

Thank you, that's good to hear.

[Beta]

I don't have the book with me, but I seem to recall that in Lockdown: Boston" one of the corps was working on some sort of anchored meta-planar gate, with the intent to set them up in pairs -- quite different locations on the mundane, but adjacent in a metaplane, so that you could essentially walk through a doorway in one place on earth and almost immediately stop out of another doorway somewhere else (such as linking major buildings of a megacorp between continents). They didn't suggest that it was working, but presumably the corp in question had reason to believe that such a thing was possible.

To me this would suggest that yah, with enough preparation, in just the right circumstances, something as magically adept as a dragon might pull something like this off.

[sk8bcn]

There's also a teleport thing in the 1st Harlequin adventure, where both Harlequin and Ehran do teleportation.

[JanessaVR]

I don't have the book with me, but I seem to recall that in Lockdown: Boston" one of the corps was working on some sort of anchored meta-planar gate, with the intent to set them up in pairs -- quite different locations on the mundane, but adjacent in a metaplane, so that you could essentially walk through a doorway in one place on earth and almost immediately stop out of another doorway somewhere else (such as linking major buildings of a megacorp between continents). They didn't suggest that it was working, but presumably the corp in question had reason to believe that such a thing was possible.

Yes, exactly this. It would probably take a megacorp to afford this, but it’s fast and secure travel between facilities. Link all of your big facilities up, at least, and the savings in travel and shipping costs alone will pay for it fairly quickly. And considering that Wuxing’s big business is shipping, you think they’d be all over this.

As a side note, in fantasy settings where more straightforward teleportation portals are possible, I’ve long (and occasionally loudly) contented that the whole scenario of caravans of goods slowly trekking from city to city across the monster-infested wilderness makes no sense at all. Just set up a portal network, between the big cities at least. Now there’s some security concern there, in that don’t necessarily want a portal from outside your city leading directly inside your city, but that’s easy to address. Establish a fortified keep one day’s ride from your city and put the portal in a courtyard in the middle. Anyone who comes through is surrounded by your soldiers, and even if any invaders do overwhelm them, at least you’ve got a day before they make it to your city. So travel between two such cities is only 2 days, along well-patrolled roads all the way; the monsters hanging out in the wilderness go can scratch their heads and wonder where all the free food went. And if both ends of the portal are both “guaranteed friendly” locations, then you can just directly link them together, without bothering to space the portals out from your cities. To date, I’ve never seen this done in any official fantasy setting, and it makes no sense for this scenario not to exist.

[Wakshaani]

Ayup. It's one of those things where you have to be careful because you can't break your setting.

And things like reliable teleport portals?

That'll break the heck out of a setting.

(Don't get me started on Star Trek transporters. Just ... don't.)

[JanessaVR]

Ayup. It's one of those things where you have to be careful because you can't break your setting.

And things like reliable teleport portals?

That'll break the heck out of a setting.

I guess I need to clarify a bit more. I'm very much in favor of such changes. There are a lot of "standard fantasy tropes" that don't make a whole lot of sense when examined even a little more closely, and as a whole are overdue for some good shaking up. Too many settings are seemingly "running on autopilot" and could stand some reevaluation.

[Jaid]

it isn't done because it breaks a lot of things with your setting. honestly, same reason shadowrun doesn't have teleport magic for that matter... especially safe teleportation borks a whole heck of a lot of stuff, but even dangerous teleportation comes with all kinds of baggage.

now, a lot of the stuff you can do with teleportation gates would be extremely advantageous. but it generally makes for much worse storytelling.

[JanessaVR]

now, a lot of the stuff you can do with teleportation gates would be extremely advantageous. but it generally makes for much worse storytelling.

We disagree, then. It changes things, and then you must explore a different story. Different != bad.

[Sendaz]

Gates are not so bad because they are static points.

Star trek style teleporting would be more problematic on the whole, but can still be done.

Plus there should also be Anti-Portal stuff, like maybe BGC makes the area too turbulent to pass through the gate/teleport with, effectively shutting that end down.
And any corp worth their soysalt will have anti-porting wards around sensitive sections to avoid exactly this, forcing teams to still go in manually.

It's like the Jhereg series by Brust.

Teleport is available, but many still walk or use horses because it takes considerable time and training to learn the ability and there are teleport proof wards so some areas you can not simply pop in or out of. There are those who hire out their services to teleport, but then coin becomes the limiting factor, so again reserving it for more specialized use than for simple tasks like getting some milk from the local grocer.

Plus you could throw in the classic tech vs magic conundrum and say you can not haul too much techie stuff on a teleport without raising the difficulty in casting.
So a shaman with minimal tech can pop around fairly easily (easy being relative since teleport magics should be fair drain and stuff), but it would take alot more effort to do the same for the heavily cybered sammie loaded for bear with a fragton of guns.
Maybe using the object resistance tables to act as a counter to the test for teleport, making it really hard to teleport your drone in and out of a hot spot.

[Wakshaani]

We disagree, then. It changes things, and then you must explore a different story. Different != bad.

Take, for instance, comics. They're set in a world much like our own. Only you have super-genius types like Reed Richards and Tony Stark around. Gripping it by the horns, the world of Marvel after 50 years of Superheroes doin things is going to be *unrecognizable* to people.

Which is why it isn't done.

People can fanfic it all *day*, but the owners know that it'd devastate sales, so nix anything changing to that level from their crew.

For your homegame tho, knock it out.

[Beta]

Take, for instance, comics. They're set in a world much like our own. Only you have super-genius types like Reed Richards and Tony Stark around. Gripping it by the horns, the world of Marvel after 50 years of Superheroes doin things is going to be *unrecognizable* to people.

Which is why it isn't done.

People can fanfic it all *day*, but the owners know that it'd devastate sales, so nix anything changing to that level from their crew.

For your homegame tho, knock it out.

a) Pretty much this ^^^^
b) The more you change how things are / how things were / established tropes, the more you have to explain how your world works, the more effort your readers or players need to invest just to understand the world, so the higher the barrier to entry. Sometimes people may choose to leave some things that don’t stand up to much analysis simply because they don’t want to make their world seem too weird at first blush.
c) Of course, the writers may not have thought things through, or not be good at such analysis, because any major change is soon going to percolate through economics, politics, culture, warfare …. And soon you are putting in a ton of effort on world building instead of writing the story that excited you.
d) Sometimes the logical conclusions of such things change the worlds in ways you may not like. I have no idea if this is the case, but this is how the Merchant Prince series by Charles Stross always felt to me – it started off as a kind of fun series where a woman discovers that she is part of a bloodline that can move between an alternate earth (that happens to be in a more or less medieval state) and ours. That family uses this to smuggle drugs on our earth, paying for the weapons and luxuries to make them nobles on the alternate earth. By several books into the series there is fairly rampant use of nuclear weapons, enslavement of people of that bloodline by governments, and basically almost everything is unpleasant – it is all a fairly logical extrapolation from that ‘one difference’ starting point, but it turns things pretty severely dark.