Official Errata, not yet, but maybe Options

[Stahlseele]

Errata First Point:
EXCHANGE MATRIX ACCESS TO PAN ACCESS ONLY FOR ALL WIRELESS BONUSES!

[binarywraith]

That would rather neatly solve the problem and match the writer's stated intent, yes.

[Sascha Morlok]

(Errata/rule suggestion: Remove the standard Wireless bonus for Firearms (SR5, p.424) for every firearm with the "vintage" trait. It makes no sense, that weapons, that have no electronics at all - like the M1 Garand replica - could eject the clip if send a mental order to the gun to do so.)

[Iduno]

I'd love it if the decking equipment got re-priced. Going from SR4's "buy up the best commlink, then never upgrade" to "buy up the best deck you can afford, then never upgrade" isn't a huge improvement. Also, the program prices are low enough that the usual advice is "just buy them all, they're cheap." Lower deck prices a lot, and increase the programs. Make both a choice, and reasonable to upgrade in-game.

Although I also realize you're not suddenly in charge of SR5, so I'd be ok with edits and fixes.

[Glyph]

I must have missed something. How would this be more Magicrun?

It was a bit tongue in cheek; I was referring to two of the most egregious errors in the sample characters. The street samurai overspent on gear by 200,000+ Nuyen, while the combat mage has an Edge of 2 when it should actually be an Edge of 7. It would be nice to see some of the most glaring mistakes get addressed. For the archetypes, someone has even already done this for you.

I also agree with binarywraith that rules crunch does not belong in the shadowtallk. Two examples from Chrome Flesh: first, on page 92, Butch tells the readers that street doc can root out the always-on wireless of augmentation bundles at about a grand per item. Then, on page 119, it has Kat o' Nine Tales mentioning that reproductive enhancement is half the cost of reproductive replacement bioware.

There are also all of the unanswered questions. Were shapeshifters intended to not have regeneration? Is the SURGE quality like the infected qualities, as in not counting towards your quality limit? How about adept ways? Do boosted reflexes stack with reaction enhancers? Does the suprathyroid gland count as an initiative enhancement since it raises Reaction? Was there supposed to be an augmented limit to skills, like they have for attributes? How can any character take the cyber-snob quality, when it requires you to start out with at least one Essence point's worth of betaware augmentations, which are not available at character creation? And this is far from an exhaustive list.

[binarywraith]

As per my post on the official boards, also, how the frag do explosives -actually work- from a rules standpoint?

It took me 45 minutes to come up with the right numbers for blowing down an apartment door with a shaped charge, and I had to make at least 3 major assumptions about rules intent to get there.

To quote myself for easy reading here, from November 2013 because nobody seemed interested in tackling it in the FAQ thread there since then :

Just a bit of clarification, is this the proper methodology?



Say you slap a quarter kilo of minimum rating (6) plastique in a directional shaped charge (45 degree arc to only blow into the room) onto an apartment door to blow it in. Logic + Demolitions scores four successes. So our equation looks like this :

Rating + (Successes on Demolitions + Logic) x sqrt(number of kilograms of explosive)

[6 + 4] x sqrt(.25) = 10 x .5 = 5

So we've got a DV 5 explosion.

An explosive’s Damage Value is calculated
as its Rating (modified by the Demolitions Test,
if you made one) times the square root of the
number of kilograms used (rounded down). The
Blast value for a circular explosion is –2 per meter,
while the Blast value for a directional explosion
(up to 60 degrees in a specific direction)
is –1 per meter. When explosives are attached
directly to a target, the target’s armor is halved;
otherwise the explosive has an AP value of –2.
If an explosion destroys a barrier, it creates a
cloud of deadly shrapnel that threatens an area
far bigger than the actual blast—the shrapnel blast
has a DV equal to the explosive’s DV minus the
Structure rating of the barrier, with a Blast of –1/m.

If a character intends to destroy a barrier (or knock a hole
in it), resolve the attack normally. Since barriers can’t
dodge, the attack test is unopposed. The purpose of the
attack test is to generate extra hits to add to the Damage
Value. If a character got no hits, then only apply the base
Damage Value. The only way a character could “miss”
is if he got a critical glitch on the attack test, thus proving
themselves literally unable to hit the broad side of a
barn. A character may use Demolitions as the attack skill
if he has the proper materials and time to set charges.

Before rolling the barrier’s damage resistance test,
adjust the modified Damage Value to reflect the type of
attack, as noted on the Damaging Barriers Table.

Now then, onto what happens when it goes boom.

First, the barrier gets to roll a damage resistance test, with structure + armor. Given this is a standard door, it has Structure 2 and Armor 4 per the chart on pg 197. However, since this is an explosive placed up against the door, we're not done with the math and ready to roll yet. Per the 'Damaging Barriers' chart on page 198, explosives in contact with the barrier get to use Base DV times two. As this section quotes a completely different method of blowing up a door than the one under Demolitions :

We're going to assume the Base DV of this explosive is the one calculated above, despite it having the results of a demolitions + logic roll added in, as the rules on 197 state that the table's results adjust the modified DV. So the next roll is as follows :

2 (structure) + 4 (armor) dice rolled vs 5 (base DV) x 2 (per damaging barriers chart)

So 6 dice vs DV 10.

Assuming an average roll on 6 dice, the barrier gets 4 successes. This leaves 6 DV unsoaked, which is more than the 2 structure the door has, and thus the door has been damaged!

Per 'Damaging A Barrier', page 197-198, The remaining 6 successes are divided by the door's structure to determine the extent of the damage. 1 square meter of hole is generated per multiple of the structure left over in DV. Thus here, a 3 square meter hole would be generated.

We'll assume most apartments don't have a 3 square meter door. Now back to page 436!

If an explosion destroys a barrier, it creates a
cloud of deadly shrapnel that threatens an area
far bigger than the actual blast—the shrapnel blast
has a DV equal to the explosive’s DV minus the
Structure rating of the barrier, with a Blast of –1/m.

The penetrating a barrier section on page 197-8 doesn't actually have any specifics at all as to how you actually destroy a barrier, only how to punch a hole in one. In this case, I'm going to go with the assumption that if the hole is larger than the object, that object is destroyed.

This door has clearly been destroyed!

Therefore, anyone on the other side of this door needs to soak :

The 5 DV (AP-2) (Minus 1 DV per meter as this is a directional explosion) explosion/blast effect itself.

-AND-

The secondary shrapnel explosion, at :

5 (Explosion DV) - 2 (structure rating of the door) with a Blast of -1 per meter.

So the door is gone, and the guy standing behind it is soaking two hits, one at 5DV (AP-2) and one at 3 DV.

As this is a shaped explosion, the people on the outside of the door do not have to soak it as well. If this was a standard spherical explosion, they would have to soak 5 DV (AP-2) -2 per meter from the door.

I have intentionally assumed this apartment is big enough that we don't have to calculate the blast reflection as well.


Now we move on to the next combat turn, and hopefully success on the part of the runners storming the apartment.


You see the number of assumptions I had to make up there? This is why I'm asking if this is an errata point or rules as intended, because there are details missing and conflicting rules in these two sections that need clarification. Also, there's a typo in the earlier part of that same rule on page 436. The rules for barriers are not on page 194 as quoted, they're on page 197.

[Critias]

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I want lots of fiction to set the tone. Besides, if we did this, we'd lose "Girls With Guns," the best piece of intro fic in the whole of the SR5 CRB.

Hello sir, I have an error to report.

[Sengir]

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I want lots of fiction to set the tone.

Then have Crit write more novel(la)s (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

When you have fiction leading into more fiction, things are just getting a bit too much for a rulebook, but obviously that's not something to be addressed by errata. How should that errata document even look like, "p. xx-yy, ignore the fiction"?


But how are you going to handle foreign errata? It sucks if only one side of the pond gets errata, but what would IMO suck even more would be both sides getting different errata for the same issues.

[Patrick Goodman]

The German and French licensees have both been in touch, offering their assistance so that we can keep things nice and consistent.

[Sengir]

The German and French licensees have both been in touch, offering their assistance so that we can keep things nice and consistent.

Good to know, because for all the "ze Germans do everything better, including SR books" it actually sucks to have an English PDF and a German DTF with no real indication of which subtleties changed between the two. If things drifted apart even more, that status would become unsustainable.
It's hopelessly idealistic, but maybe all sides could end up with consistent, documented changes and not just internal mail threads (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Stahlseele]

I have been to sevral Q&A with the german . . . line dev? i think? Tobias "Tigger" Hamelmann by now.
Ze germanz have been offering to help with errataed stuff for years by now and it just was not implemented in the english stuff because . . reasons . .

[binarywraith]

I have been to sevral Q&A with the german . . . line dev? i think? Tobias "Tigger" Hamelmann by now.
Ze germanz have been offering to help with errataed stuff for years by now and it just was not implemented in the english stuff because . . reasons . .

I think it's safe to say outright at this point that 'reasons' are frankly that Catalyst is not interested in spending money, time, or effort on the product beyond the minimum needed to crank out the next release.

I'd like to think otherwise, but then I look at this, or missions, and realize that everything other than direct releases involving SR these days is fronted by either fans or freelancers on their own time.

[KCKitsune]

Not to put words in his mouth, but I believe this is referring to the largish number of wireless 'bonuses' which were written without real communication as to the intent of the bonuses from the editor to the writer, and thus don't make much sense in the game world's context.

You got it PERFECTLY right.

The whole "go on the matrix to get bonuses" idea is so COMPLETELY against what a professional criminal IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CRIME would do! Yeah I'm about to assassinate someone so let my rifle go on the Matrix so I get windage (and coincidentally upload the smartgun camera footage to the OEM of the rifle &/or smartlink) makes PERFECT sense!

[DeathStrobe]

You got it PERFECTLY right.

The whole "go on the matrix to get bonuses" idea is so COMPLETELY against what a professional criminal IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CRIME would do! Yeah I'm about to assassinate someone so let my rifle go on the Matrix so I get windage (and coincidentally upload the smartgun camera footage to the OEM of the rifle &/or smartlink) makes PERFECT sense!

I think it would make more sense that wireless is mandatory and you can't opt out of it. It literally doesn't make sense that anyone would be a luddite and not suffer horrifically in a technologically advanced society.

[binarywraith]

I think it would make more sense that wireless is mandatory and you can't opt out of it. It literally doesn't make sense that anyone would be a luddite and not suffer horrifically in a technologically advanced society.

Which would make sense except most of the bonuses don't make sense in the context of 'things the Internet could add to your gear'.

Not to mention that manywere admittedly and obviously written much more from the perspective of 'devices on a PAN' rather than 'connected to the Matrix'. See also the wireless bonuses on diving gear, when per the rules a few feet of seawater explicitly blocks all wireless signal.

[Stahlseele]

I think it would make more sense that wireless is mandatory and you can't opt out of it. It literally doesn't make sense that anyone would be a luddite and not suffer horrifically in a technologically advanced society.

The writer who was responsible for the online bonus stuff admitted that he thought it was intended to be PAN level online only.
And then SOMEBODY decided that that would simply not fuck samurai enough and would not give hackers ways to be annoying.
And so they changed it to matrix access online after the writer had done his job with the pan level access only in mind and thus came about the stupidity that your extendable baton is easier and faster to extend if it has matrix access . .

[Sendaz]

I think it would make more sense that wireless is mandatory and you can't opt out of it. It literally doesn't make sense that anyone would be a luddite and not suffer horrifically in a technologically advanced society.

Fundamentally it comes down to the difference between being Average Dayjob Joe and Runner Bob.

Wireless does make sense for totally legitimate uses, like the average Joe who's fridge orders milk and eggs by itself when they run low, or getting preferred AR ads/coupons crop up when he is walking past a favourite shop.
In these cases, the average consumer is wrapped up in Big Brother's warm and loving embrace as he is looking out for them.

But runners like Bob by default are wanting to do things not so legitimate and therefore having tons of items yakking about you and your presence is pretty much a non-win situation.
Here Big Brother's embrace becomes a chokehold as he drags you away from your planned fun.

Would you send your sniper out into the woods while wearing a bright pink flamingo suit and tell him he can not cover it with mud/dirt/tree bits but has to remain completely visible the whole time while shooting?
Because that is exactly the same thing as being wired up at that time because every little icon is calling you out to anyone bothering to look.

Now you do have some options like running silent or even Wrapper, but they really don't work as good as they sound like they should.
Maybe if we look at tweaking how Silent and Wrapper work as well as the aforementioned PAN vs Wireless bonuses we might be able to come up with a reasonable compromise.
Plus if we can make it more reasonable to go wired up, this will give Deckers/TMs more oppurtunities to run their electronic overwatch role for the team.

[KCKitsune]

I think it would make more sense that wireless is mandatory and you can't opt out of it. It literally doesn't make sense that anyone would be a luddite and not suffer horrifically in a technologically advanced society.

DeathStrobe, are you being sarcastic? I mean honestly, are you being sarcastic?

For example just think of what a smartlink does. It has a camera installed into a gun and using a combination of sensors (in SR4 you could get improved range finder that adds a microwave and radar sensor to cover each others weaknesses) to improve your aim.

I can ALMOST see using the Matrix to get the windage at the extreme range of a heavy sniper rifle. With a assault rifle or a pistol, no. unless you're shooting in a hurricane (and why the frag are you doing THAT?!?") wind is not going to affect that round all that much. The idea that you HAVE to have a Matrix connection is just plain... silly.

[DeathStrobe]

No, I am dead serious that everything should be online by default.

In the wireless world, the man who doesn't already have a metric ton of meta data following him around should be setting off red flags. People don't go unnoticed because they are off the grid, they stick out like a sore thumb because they're the only ones that isn't leaving a data trail. You NEED to be wireless on all the time.

If you pass by a MAD scanner, and your gun isn't broadcasting it's fake license, guess who's going to be sending a swarm of roto drones and officers to tell you to kiss the ground?

The Matrix isn't just a thing you can opt out of, it's an invasive part of the setting. You can't run wireless off, you have to be online all the time, just to look like all the other corporate shills.

[binarywraith]

Except, you know, the whole part where huge swaths of the planet, especially bits where you'd want to use a gun legitimately, have no legitimate reason to have sufficient coverage to make that possible.

Who paid to build out full wireless coverage across the Amazon? Or the deserts? Or hell, even just being on a boat in international waters?


I'm aware the official answer is apparently that we magically figured out a way to get effectively infinite bandwidth out of the wireless spectrum, and to get no or minimal lag sat comms from anywhere with pocket consumer electronics, but that is still pretty absurd to try and justify in the face of the stated fact by the writer that what got printed wasn't what they were told.

[DeathStrobe]

The Amazon rain forest is not the default setting. A sprawl is. It can be safely assumed, the most shadowruns will be within a city like Seattle or Denver.

With that said, there should still be Matrix coverage, even in the middle of nowhere, like a desert. Because, just like magic, the Matrix should be so invasive to the setting, you can not hope to escape it.

There should of course be neo-anarchists, neo-luddites, isolated tribes that believe in magic and superstition and reject technology. But, those are exceptions and not considered the default setting. The default setting is a high technologically advanced city with towering mega corporate arcologies which runners are suppose to blend in with to steal things from mega corporations for other mega corporations.

[Mantis]

isolated tribes that believe in magic and superstition and reject technology. But, those are exceptions and not considered the default setting.

Uh magic is just as core to the setting as the matrix and even more fundamental than the wireless matrix. The isolated tribes that believe in magic have good reason to since it actually works.
How exactly are you supposed to sneak into the arcologies with your stun baton or clothing broadcasting your presence to any and all who care to look? That is the problem with the wireless as written. PAN level access makes some sense. Matrix level access makes no sense.

[DeathStrobe]

Uh magic is just as core to the setting as the matrix and even more fundamental than the wireless matrix. The isolated tribes that believe in magic have good reason to since it actually works.
How exactly are you supposed to sneak into the arcologies with your stun baton or clothing broadcasting your presence to any and all who care to look? That is the problem with the wireless as written. PAN level access makes some sense. Matrix level access makes no sense.

You sneak in the same way everyone else does, through the front door broadcasting that you're a good little corporate wageslave sending your false data trail to confirm the story.

Or how else are you suppose to get close enough to the arcology if you're carrying an unlicensed Ares Predator V that isn't broadcasting but is still able to be picked up a MAD scanners? The problem is everyone that things wireless is a security risk is correct, but everyone in the setting does it because they need to, not because they want to. And the reason everyone needs to is because governments, law enforcement, and mega corp all want to keep their all seeing and unblinking eyes on you.

And I know what you're thinking, but Deathstrobe, that doesn't pass the smell test. Shadowrunners cannot exist in a panopticon. While the powers that be would love to know everything about everyone, the truth is that security through obscurity is a thing. There is too much data for any of them to accurately track anyone, and top of that, if you add falsified data and data balkanization, the haystack gets bigger while the needle stays the same size or in some cases gets smaller. But the thing is, you still need to be leaving some kind of digital fingerprint or else it's obvious you're a filthy SINless that somehow got out of the barrens to cause trouble for the corporate elites.

[Mantis]

Sure, that is true for a shadowrunner in his day to day life. They need to leave a trail. But they sure as hell don't want to do that on the job. Sneaking in with fake data is all well and good so long as you can insert that fake data into their system. Buy fake IDs that let you into place you shouldn't be? No, that doesn't seem to be an option as the fake ID just provides a SIN but there is nothing to indicate it comes with access privileges to interesting places. Besides which, with the price tag as they are and the pay scale being what it is in SR5, buying fake IDs to sneak into places costs too damn much.

So the next option is hacking the credentials you need. Remember this is all digital ID so you can't just take some dude's ID badge and paste your picture on it so you have to actually hack the data in. Which is fine but it seems to me that these systems are extensive enough that you would need to hack more than one data base which leaves a bunch of prep work to be done that excludes the rest of your game group. What fun.
None of that allows you to bring along any of the fun time gear a runner uses that for whatever reason needs matrix access but isn't something their cover ID would allow or is just flat out forbidden.

I agree that the data fracturing would work to a runner's advantage but only as far as crossing jurisdiction goes and not even there all the time. Sneaking into the Ares facility means you need either valid access or good fakes that also allow you to bring along everything you need for the job. If you run in Seattle, Knight Errant (an Ares subsidiary) will respond to any alarms that get sent out and are also likely to be on site security. So data Balkanization won't apply in that situation.

If you are relying on blending into the crowd then the price of good fake ID has to be much lower or else the cost of getting fakes needs to be part of the job and payment. Those Fake IDs also need to include an option to just get Joe Wageslave or Jane Corp Researcher's exact ID to fake being them and using that to sneak into a facility.

[Nath]

I can ALMOST see using the Matrix to get the windage at the extreme range of a heavy sniper rifle. With a assault rifle or a pistol, no. unless you're shooting in a hurricane (and why the frag are you doing THAT?!?") wind is not going to affect that round all that much. The idea that you HAVE to have a Matrix connection is just plain... silly.

Anyway, per the rules smartlink reduces wind penalty whether they're online or not, while smartlink online bonus applies whether there is wind or not. No one actually has a clue about what data the smartlink may get from the Matrix that could increase chances of hitting: everyone ends up mentioning wind, which is specifically the possibility the rules exclude.