Catching up with 5th Edition, Is it worth it? Options

[JonathanC]

So, for a variety of reasons, I haven't kept up with Shadowrun tabletop in a good long while. It's been tough to find players, my local friends mostly prefer Pathfinder, you know the deal. I had brief luck organizing a local group a few years ago, but family stuff dragged me away from it. Long story short, I own the core book, and a PDF of Street Grimoire that I got as a giveaway, and that's more or less it besides some adventure books. During S4A I had a full set, that I've since sold off to make room on my bookshelf.

By my reckoning, not including adventure/campaign books, I'm missing:

• Run Faster
• Run & Gun
• Chrome Flesh
• Data Trails
• Rigger 5.0

For PDFs, that's ~$125, IIRC. If I went for hard copies, I'd have to pick up Street Grimoire as well, and that would be ~$300. Either is a bit hefty. For those who have had more time playing 5th Ed than I have, are the side books worth it? Do you expect a 6th Edition to launch soonish?

[Glyph]

I couldn't say about the last two, since I don't have them, but I will give my overall impression about the first three books.

Run Faster is the closest to an essential book out of them all. It has three new character creation systems, new character options (metavariants, SURGE, shapeshifters, infected, and sapient critters); new qualities, archetypes, and contacts (and expanded rules for running contacts); expanded lifestyle rules (not as good as the SR3/SR4 ones), and some PACKS. It basically does what Runner's Companion did, but more poorly. Lots of errors and major flaws, but you still might want to get it just for all of the expanded character options.

Run & Gun is about what you might expect, new weapons/armor/accessories, martial arts (much less powerful), and some advanced combat/hostile environment rules that are a mixed bag.

Chrome Flesh was the biggest disappointment, because they are still shilling their lameass CFD metaplot, but give no rules for it - this is a core book basically saying you "Fuck you, read the Stolen Souls supplement if you want the information." It has a few good new qualities, and new cyberware and bioware as well as geneware and nanoware (although a lot of it is either gimped or more expensive). Even cosmetic augmentations got nerfed or made needlessly complicated.

[apple]

are the side books worth it?

No, not really. I would simply stay with 4th Edition. SR4A may have its own issues, but spending 125 to 300 $ for subpar splatbooks again ... is not really recommendable.

SYL

[sk8bcn]

Run Faster is the closest to an essential book out of them all. It has three new character creation systems, new character options (metavariants, SURGE, shapeshifters, infected, and sapient critters); new qualities, archetypes, and contacts (and expanded rules for running contacts); expanded lifestyle rules (not as good as the SR3/SR4 ones), and some PACKS. It basically does what Runner's Companion did, but more poorly. Lots of errors and major flaws, but you still might want to get it just for all of the expanded character options.

I did read in "The Gaming Den" that Trollman and Ancient History (one of the autor of Runners Companion btw) tought that RC and Tir Na Nog competes for the worst book written for SR (pre-War era).

I guess you'd disagree on this or is, at your taste, Run Faster absolutely catastrophic?

[Blade]

Run Faster is post War!
Seeing the hate Trollman and AH have for SR5, I guess they'd rate all SR5 books below RC and Tir Na Nog.

@JonathanC: Personally I didn't find SR5 interesting. It did try to address some problems I had but I'm far from satisfied with the way it did, and it completely ignored other problems. I finally went with my own system. From the feedback I got, it's playable. It's not necessarily improved across the board, it just has different flaws.

So to me there's no need to switch to SR5. But if the local players did the switch, it will be easier for you to play if you switch as well.

[binarywraith]

So, for a variety of reasons, I haven't kept up with Shadowrun tabletop in a good long while. It's been tough to find players, my local friends mostly prefer Pathfinder, you know the deal. I had brief luck organizing a local group a few years ago, but family stuff dragged me away from it. Long story short, I own the core book, and a PDF of Street Grimoire that I got as a giveaway, and that's more or less it besides some adventure books. During S4A I had a full set, that I've since sold off to make room on my bookshelf.

By my reckoning, not including adventure/campaign books, I'm missing:

• Run Faster
• Run & Gun
• Chrome Flesh
• Data Trails
• Rigger 5.0

For PDFs, that's ~$125, IIRC. If I went for hard copies, I'd have to pick up Street Grimoire as well, and that would be ~$300. Either is a bit hefty. For those who have had more time playing 5th Ed than I have, are the side books worth it? Do you expect a 6th Edition to launch soonish?

For the money I honestly wouldn't bother. What fun stuff they do add is counterbalanced by a -lot- of very exploitable rules holes and complications.

No word on a 6e yet, but I'd be amazed and disappointed in Catalyst if they aren't planning a 30th Anniversary Edition in a couple years.

[Thanee]

The core book is all you need to start playing, and if you see that there is a need, you can still get the other books. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Glyph]

I did read in "The Gaming Den" that Trollman and Ancient History (one of the autor of Runners Companion btw) tought that RC and Tir Na Nog competes for the worst book written for SR (pre-War era).

I guess you'd disagree on this or is, at your taste, Run Faster absolutely catastrophic?

You have inspired me to go through and do a review of the book, which I will post when it is done. But the short answer is that for the most part, Run Faster treads the same ground as Runner's Companion, but does a worse job of it in most areas.

[sk8bcn]

Can't wait to read this! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I hope there will be trucks of saltyness inside (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[binarywraith]

Honestly, I can't even get salty any more. Every 5e release has the same problems.

[JonathanC]

No, not really. I would simply stay with 4th Edition. SR4A may have its own issues, but spending 125 to 300 $ for subpar splatbooks again ... is not really recommendable.

SYL

I think I might try running a few sessions with SR5 core-only...I enjoyed 4A when it first came out, but you know how it is: over time, minor annoyances start to bug you too much. Deckers having no use for Logic, the easy of armor stacking, MagicRun...if they ever do go for a 6th edition, I hope they really re-evaluate the mechanics (I miss the TNs of 3rd ed, oddly enough) and tech/magic balance.

[apple]

Sure, after playing RPGs for almost 20 years I know a little bit about annoyances and freaking out about them (if you *ever* get to play Germanys top RPG "Das schwarze Auge" in its 3rd edition, you will know about pure inhuman rage this RPG could provoke) - but don´t be surprised if the issues you criticize will come back, especially MagicRun. But yeah ... paying 300$ to get these same/similar issues (in other colors or shapes) back is simply not worth it.

Deckers having no use for Logic

Really? Your GM never asked for a data analysis check? Hardware tests? Build/repair/modifiy gadgets? How ... uncreative. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SYL

[Wakshaani]

The strength of logic comes in build/repair and programming. Unfortunately, the 5th ed software side doesn't play with this. It's one of the things I'd love to fiddle with, but, not a rules guy, so, not likely to go there.

Mind you, I also want to make Magic much more expensive and smaller in scale than we've had it, so, not letting me go on a mad run through the game is a wise call from above. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Thanee]

I think I might try running a few sessions with SR5 core-only...I enjoyed 4A when it first came out, but you know how it is: over time, minor annoyances start to bug you too much. Deckers having no use for Logic, the easy of armor stacking, MagicRun...if they ever do go for a 6th edition, I hope they really re-evaluate the mechanics (I miss the TNs of 3rd ed, oddly enough) and tech/magic balance.

As for Hacking and Logic, at least in SR4A there was an optional rule that addressed this (changing the dice pool from Skill + Program to Logic + Skill with the Program acting as a limit). Cannot really say how this works in SR5.

As for minor annoyances, I would expect you to find a few in SR5. There are many good ideas in the new edition, but some things are just not entirely thought-out.

MagicRun ... most everyone seems to prefer awakened characters in SR5, even though spellcasting is quite a bit weaker now that you get to resist almost all spells with two attributes instead of just one and combat spells have been toned down (a bit too much maybe). Spirits, OTOH, are as potent as ever.

The biggest problem for tech-dependent characters is the high cost for cyberware. That was better balanced in SR4A. Some of the stuff costs way too much now.

Overall I think that SR5 is quite good, but you should definitely try it with just the core rules for a while, to decide for yourself.

If something annoys you, there are always house rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[KCKitsune]

As for Hacking and Logic, at least in SR4A there was an optional rule that addressed this (changing the dice pool from Skill + Program to Logic + Skill with the Program acting as a limit). Cannot really say how this works in SR5.

As for minor annoyances, I would expect you to find a few in SR5. There are many good ideas in the new edition, but some things are just not entirely thought-out.

MagicRun ... most everyone seems to prefer awakened characters in SR5, even though spellcasting is quite a bit weaker now that you get to resist almost all spells with two attributes instead of just one and combat spells have been toned down (a bit too much maybe). Spirits, OTOH, are as potent as ever.

The biggest problem for tech-dependent characters is the high cost for cyberware. That was better balanced in SR4A. Some of the stuff costs way too much now.

Overall I think that SR5 is quite good, but you should definitely try it with just the core rules for a while, to decide for yourself.

If something annoys you, there are always house rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

Also the fact that in 5th edition the lesser of the type of 'Ware you have installed is not discounted. In 4th edition if you had 2 points of cyber you could get up to 2 points of bio for half the Essence cost and vice versa. With that gotten rid of Street Sams are made less relevant.

[Stahlseele]

The strength of logic comes in build/repair and programming. Unfortunately, the 5th ed software side doesn't play with this. It's one of the things I'd love to fiddle with, but, not a rules guy, so, not likely to go there.

Mind you, I also want to make Magic much more expensive and smaller in scale than we've had it, so, not letting me go on a mad run through the game is a wise call from above. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

No it isn't.
That would put the balance back in check.
But noo, we can't have balanced magic, can we?
Magic has to be the uber be all end all of SR always.
Not just with things tech can't do, but also with things it simply does better than tech <.<

[apple]

Yes, it always makes sense to make everything worse instead of making everything awesome... SR had enough development thoughts in that direction and the result was a garbage edition.

SYL

[Wakshaani]

Yes, it always makes sense to make everything worse instead of making everything awesome... SR had enough development thoughts in that direction and the result was a garbage edition.

SYL

Balance is the goal. That means making suboptimal things better and weakening old broken things.

Otherwise, you get into an arms race, and that's never good.

The big problem on magical balance is that magicians can use tech too, so any tool that you give to mundanes can also fit into magical hands. Now, with high Essence costs on things like Wired Reflexes, it's a wash against magical versions, but in some instances, magic is just flat-out better, and that's bad. If you can't bring the others up in ability to match magic, then you need to nerf magic until it hits parity again, either by weakening it or by making certain options so expensive that yo have a real choice to make.

I, personally, think that we're not there yet. Close in many areas, and MUCH closer than 4th ed was, but still a ways to go. There's one archetype in particular that's utterly useless with magic around and I haven't quite figured out how to fix that yet.

But I'm thinkin'...

[binarywraith]

At some point you have to pull back on power levels or you end up with Exalted.

[apple]

If anything, mage power was already reduced (no cheap karma whoring, no insta-initiate powers anymore, increased magic costs for using implants etc). If you still feel that mundanes are too weak after 30 years then you should perhaps really start to check out if the mundane development of rules, hindrances, challenges and world presentation was pushing mundanes up or down (just as a starting point: check out the rules for the levitation spell vs jumping rules and cybernetics (and compare it how other games solved that). Or you should at least declare that you wish a general reduction of powerlevel for all and everything in SR.

But if you want to continue this part of ranting you should open a new thread - as this does not really help JonathanC.

SYL

[Tycho]

In short: Don't buy it.

If you have the 4the Edition books, there is nothing to gain.

Long answer:
5th Edition tried to address some of the issues with SR4, but also introduced some new issues. Most notable:
- Wireless Boni that make no sense at all: Like the silencer, that has some kind of omnipotence when Wifi On, because it will inform you if someone noticed your shot. Or the above mentioned better Smartlink because of cloud computing and Real Time Weather Data. Especially helpful indoors.
- New Matrix Rules, where some things just work supernatural without logical explanation while other areas are simply not defined, so that you end up in a state, where the Rules simple provide no answers to sensible Questions.
- Inflation galore: Everything is expensive as hell. Prices are on average about 5 times as high as in SR4, with one notable exception: Foci, which leads us to...
- Magerun more than ever: Sure there are some mechanics that theoretically hinder mages, but overall Mages are stronger than ever. The new Drain Rules essentially mean that Drain on Force Ratings up to 6 is lower. Magic is cheap as ever, Foci even cheaper, while Cyberware Costs are rampant and prohibitive. You can start as a Mystic Adept with Magic 7 and 7 Powerpoints and nobody in Playtesting considered this overpowered. In the Runner Hub Online Community, Mystic Adapts are all but forbidden. Several GMs flatout refuse Mystic Adapt SCs. And that is the community that essentially encourages Powergaming in their character approval process.

And that is just the content: Editing, Layout and Proofreading are probably non-existent. And was until recently no recognisable desire to fix any mistakes or provide errata.

[apple]

You can start as a Mystic Adept with Magic 7 and 7 Powerpoints

To be fair: you have to sacrifice a lot to make this happen. It´s not the 0815- starterbuild.

SYL

[Tycho]

in the original Rules it was like 14Karma for 7 Powerpoints (2Karma each) and idk how many for the Magic 7 Quality. That is not a lot of sacrificing...

[Imladir]

Even if you have to make sacrifices at character creation, those sacrifices can be erased with a bit of karma, whereas the benefits you gain would require an enormous amount of it.

And that's not even taking into account how overpowered a Mystic Adept with Magic 7 at creation is overpowered by itself.

[Wakshaani]

But if you want to continue this part of ranting you should open a new thread - as this does not really help JonathanC.

SYL

This is absolutely true, and I apologize for allowing us to drift like this.

The big thing is helping the new blood out.

So, for JonathanC .... hello! Whatever you need, just ask. We're happy to help.

Even if we get distracted easily.

(OOoo, look! A butterfly...)