[X] My Assistant

[FriendoftheDork]

Hello!

I was looking into old official modules and noticed that generally speaking, grunts and enemies do not have recoil compensation from gasvent systems etc. This may be that it was easier to handle or had other advantages (damage etc.) in older editions, but with the current SR5 rules using an AK97 without any mods makes no sense. Sure, you can shoot semi auto fairly well, and with some strength even get off a short burst, but other than that you have to assume that fully automatic fire means you will take the same penalty to attacks as the defender takes to his defense, which means they simply even out. If you have 50% more dice than the defender this is somewhat ok to reduce the chance of a miss, but in overall a security guard with maybe 6-8 dice has no use of fully automatic bursts with their iconic SMGs, especially against runners, but also against the typical ganger with 5-7 defense dice.

So as a GM I feel I either have to give all the NPCs at least Gasvent II systems, or introduce some sort of standard RC for all automatic weapons to deal with it. Runners generally will deck their weapons out as best as they can do reduce or eliminate this penalty, but should that be done by everyone else too? If so, it should be standard issue. Note that in SR4 it made sense to get a penalty as you could also increase the damage output this way, but now it's simply for hitting more easily, which runs counter to getting a penalty to shooting in the first place.

Thoughts?

[binarywraith]

Full auto fire is for keeping heads down, not targeted attacks.

Use it tactically that way, and the issue disappears.

[FriendoftheDork]

Full auto fire is for keeping heads down, not targeted attacks.

Use it tactically that way, and the issue disappears.

Suppressive fire can be useful, but can't really take down targets, so you need others to do more precise fire. Single shots is an option, but short bursts should imcrease the chance of a hit due to a small spread of bullets. However most sec guards can only fire one such every other phase without suffering from recoil.

Realism aside, enemies coming in guns blazing is cool and more intimidating, and shouldnt be useless.

[Mantis]

I agree with you that it is weird that NPCs rarely have recoil comp on their weapons. It does explain why the HK-227 is the corp SMG of choice though, with suppressor along with a smart link and folding stock included you get a lot of mods for a cheap(ish) price. Add a point of recoil comp from strength and corp guards can fire a burst, reset recoil and fire again, phase after phase. The Colt Cobra is another popular corp choice probably due to the built in recoil comp as is the FN HAR.
Three round bursts are a simple action and you can only make one attack action in a phase so the other can be to take aim (which resets recoil) and then fire again. Without recoil comp the take aim action counters 1 point of recoil.
None of this explains why module writers always give NPCs AK-97s though. That is an odd choice given the fluff. It makes sense for a gang banger but not for a supposedly trained security guard.

[FriendoftheDork]

I agree with you that it is weird that NPCs rarely have recoil comp on their weapons. It does explain why the HK-227 is the corp SMG of choice though, with suppressor along with a smart link and folding stock included you get a lot of mods for a cheap(ish) price. Add a point of recoil comp from strength and corp guards can fire a burst, reset recoil and fire again, phase after phase. The Colt Cobra is another popular corp choice probably due to the built in recoil comp as is the FN HAR.
Three round bursts are a simple action and you can only make one attack action in a phase so the other can be to take aim (which resets recoil) and then fire again. Without recoil comp the take aim action counters 1 point of recoil.
None of this explains why module writers always give NPCs AK-97s though. That is an odd choice given the fluff. It makes sense for a gang banger but not for a supposedly trained security guard.

Yeah, agreed.

I'm just going to assume that corps can get recoil compensators en masse a lot cheaper than normal prices, and thus give those AKs some use. Better loot for the runners as well.

Burst, aim, burst might be a good tactic, but don't you have to spend a whole initative pass not shooting to reset that recoil? Thats how I read it.

[Mantis]

I think the consensus has been it is but a simple action needed to reset recoil rather than a whole phase.

[psychophipps]

Semi-auto fire is the standard fire type for well-trained military (and thus, security in SR as there is a far smaller difference between to two in the world) forces. Recoil should be a limiting factor in firearms combat because if the recoil rule wasn't there than pretty quickly every firearms action would involve full automatic fire from anyone approaching a savvy gamer. Autofire is pretty much a joke to anyone familiar with full-automatic weapons with the optimal use of even general-purpose machineguns (designed from the ground up with sustained fire in mind) being limited to 5-6 round bursts.

AK-97s are so dirt common because they're...*drum roll* dirt common. Cheap to buy, not a hassle to replace, and so common that resupply of parts and ammunition is available almost anywhere. You point it in the right direction, pull the trigger after the correct loading sequence, and like the Sun it'll do it's thing for you.

[Sengir]

Full auto fire is for keeping heads down, not targeted attacks.

Real life != SR combat. In SR(5), the purpose of bursts and full auto is to reduce the defender's dodge pool, suppressive fire is another action.

[FriendoftheDork]

I think the consensus has been it is but a simple action needed to reset recoil rather than a whole phase.

What? I got the opposite impression. Also, it directly contradicts the rules:
"Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase
and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced
into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action
Phase." (SR5, p175)

If just an aim action reset it you could fire a full auto burst (6 rounds) every phase and not worry about recoil assuming you had str 4 and a Gasvent III.
In my game the street sam even paused shooting his hold out pistol due to cumulative recoil, and used single shots rather than SA bursts.

Semi-auto fire is the standard fire type for well-trained military (and thus, security in SR as there is a far smaller difference between to two in the world) forces. Recoil should be a limiting factor in firearms combat because if the recoil rule wasn't there than pretty quickly every firearms action would involve full automatic fire from anyone approaching a savvy gamer. Autofire is pretty much a joke to anyone familiar with full-automatic weapons with the optimal use of even general-purpose machineguns (designed from the ground up with sustained fire in mind) being limited to 5-6 round bursts.

AK-97s are so dirt common because they're...*drum roll* dirt common. Cheap to buy, not a hassle to replace, and so common that resupply of parts and ammunition is available almost anywhere. You point it in the right direction, pull the trigger after the correct loading sequence, and like the Sun it'll do it's thing for you.

Yeah realistically SA is often the most useful for rifles and most militairies train with that in mind, but also for logistical reasons as they have to fight longer and more often than a group of shadowrunners or security guards. They also know that the MG or LMG will do most of the suppression work, so you can focus on targeting individual enemies with single shots. However, a 4 man corpsec team with SMGs will probably be a lot less trained, have little logistical problems, and will need to keep the enemy down and intimidate it until reinforcements can arrive, thus automatic fire is more likely to be used.
Thematically, autofire is cool and scary, so keeping with the 80s action movie traditions it should be more dangerous or feel more dangerous than single shots, and reducing defense is one way to do this.

AKs are actually medium expensive in SR5, but thats silly and breaking tradition so I already house ruled that to the old 500 nuyen. Still, it makes sense to reduce costs so AKs are reasonable for many forces that are not supposed to be elite, assuming there are not cheaper versions that are inherently more useful - in other words they would need to get a good deal on gasvent systems as well to make the slightly improved AKs cheaper than the more advanced models that comes with mods.

Real life != SR combat. In SR(5), the purpose of bursts and full auto is to reduce the defender's dodge pool, suppressive fire is another action.

QFT.


In conclusion, I think the easiest fix is simply to equip the corpsec with gas vent systems if I want them to be somewhat effective, and ignore than when I do not. Untrained gangers are also likely to simply spray and not realize they are simply wasting ammo.

Although it was somewhat off topic, I am also curious if you guys agree with Mantis about a simple action resetting recoil or not. Seems to me like a misunderstanding (I did the same at first) or a house rule.

[Beta]

What? I got the opposite impression. Also, it directly contradicts the rules:
"Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase
and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced
into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action
Phase." (SR5, p175)

The errata changed this. http://cdn.shadowruntabletop.com/wp-conten...rata.pdf?f365d3 second page, top of the second column.

[Mantis]

What? I got the opposite impression. Also, it directly contradicts the rules:
"Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase
and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced
into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action
Phase." (SR5, p175)

If just an aim action reset it you could fire a full auto burst (6 rounds) every phase and not worry about recoil assuming you had str 4 and a Gasvent III.
In my game the street sam even paused shooting his hold out pistol due to cumulative recoil, and used single shots rather than SA bursts.

Although it was somewhat off topic, I am also curious if you guys agree with Mantis about a simple action resetting recoil or not. Seems to me like a misunderstanding (I did the same at first) or a house rule.

This is what pg 175 of my copy of SR5 core book says

Recoil accumulates with every bullet fired until the attacker stops firing to bring the gun (or guns) back under control. Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, a Simple or Complex Action other than shooting.

I think you have an older copy of the book? If it is a PDF you can get an updated one from where ever you got it originally (Drivethru or Battleshop).

[FriendoftheDork]

Hmm, I think maybe my paper version is also out of date, but the PDF surely is. Can't remember where I got that from, but I will have to live with it because reasons.

Well that "clarification" (actually a rules change) changes things. I can't see how Semi-auto weapons can actually accumulate recoil unless you use the SA burst complex action only, which means it only affects it if you do something like: Aim, SA shot, SA burst, SA burst, SA burst (total 10 recoil for the next burst or shot).
Thanks for the heads up. It does make full auto bursts a lot better IMO, even if you dont have zounds of RC. FA long bursts will probably still be very rare, except for those with tons of RC and/or strength.

[binarywraith]

What? I got the opposite impression. Also, it directly contradicts the rules:
"Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase
and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced
into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action
Phase." (SR5, p175)

If just an aim action reset it you could fire a full auto burst (6 rounds) every phase and not worry about recoil assuming you had str 4 and a Gasvent III.
In my game the street sam even paused shooting his hold out pistol due to cumulative recoil, and used single shots rather than SA bursts.


Yeah realistically SA is often the most useful for rifles and most militairies train with that in mind, but also for logistical reasons as they have to fight longer and more often than a group of shadowrunners or security guards. They also know that the MG or LMG will do most of the suppression work, so you can focus on targeting individual enemies with single shots. However, a 4 man corpsec team with SMGs will probably be a lot less trained, have little logistical problems, and will need to keep the enemy down and intimidate it until reinforcements can arrive, thus automatic fire is more likely to be used.
Thematically, autofire is cool and scary, so keeping with the 80s action movie traditions it should be more dangerous or feel more dangerous than single shots, and reducing defense is one way to do this.

AKs are actually medium expensive in SR5, but thats silly and breaking tradition so I already house ruled that to the old 500 nuyen. Still, it makes sense to reduce costs so AKs are reasonable for many forces that are not supposed to be elite, assuming there are not cheaper versions that are inherently more useful - in other words they would need to get a good deal on gasvent systems as well to make the slightly improved AKs cheaper than the more advanced models that comes with mods.


QFT.


In conclusion, I think the easiest fix is simply to equip the corpsec with gas vent systems if I want them to be somewhat effective, and ignore than when I do not. Untrained gangers are also likely to simply spray and not realize they are simply wasting ammo.

Although it was somewhat off topic, I am also curious if you guys agree with Mantis about a simple action resetting recoil or not. Seems to me like a misunderstanding (I did the same at first) or a house rule.

Security forces are not military, and operationally will almost always be on Corp property, with Corp assets and corporate citizens to protect. Their ROE is going to be a lot closer to police than soldiers, because every round in that full auto burst has a chance of ending up in the spleen of someone worth more to the corporation than their own lives.

[FriendoftheDork]

Security forces are not military, and operationally will almost always be on Corp property, with Corp assets and corporate citizens to protect. Their ROE is going to be a lot closer to police than soldiers, because every round in that full auto burst has a chance of ending up in the spleen of someone worth more to the corporation than their own lives.

Yes, mostly on Corp territory. It means that the corp is also in control of any news regarding the incident, and there are often few or no external concerns. While regular police have to deal with due cause, habeus corpus and other civil rights, the corpsec often only need to obey orders and not hit too important bystanders. Realistically they will try to avoid bystanders anyway, but it makes sense to give them the possibility of suppressing the enemy or simply having superior or equal firepower to armed intruders, gangers, and shadowrunners entering facilities, which is also more likely at night when there are less bystanders. It probably also differs a lot between corps, and in my case we are talking Azzies, where human life is considered overall to have low value. If runners have taken high execs as hostages RoE will be a lot different than if there are simply some gangers trashing up the parking lot at night.

[binarywraith]

Yes, mostly on Corp territory. It means that the corp is also in control of any news regarding the incident, and there are often few or no external concerns. While regular police have to deal with due cause, habeus corpus and other civil rights, the corpsec often only need to obey orders and not hit too important bystanders. Realistically they will try to avoid bystanders anyway, but it makes sense to give them the possibility of suppressing the enemy or simply having superior or equal firepower to armed intruders, gangers, and shadowrunners entering facilities, which is also more likely at night when there are less bystanders. It probably also differs a lot between corps, and in my case we are talking Azzies, where human life is considered overall to have low value. If runners have taken high execs as hostages RoE will be a lot different than if there are simply some gangers trashing up the parking lot at night.

Honestly, I figure CorpSec has it worse than the modern police when it comes to collateral damage. Modern US police will not end up in any serious trouble short of being on film shooting protesters execution style. CorpSec have to worry about the accountants demanding to know why they felt it necessary to destroy a hundred thousand (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) of corporate property over some street thugs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Blade]

"Surrender now or I'll have to request a waiver for corporate property damage!"

[psychophipps]

"Surrender now or I'll have to request a waiver for corporate property damage!"

I always preferred, "I'm sorry, sir, but that area isn't zoned for parking. If you don't move your vehicle I'm authorized to begin shelling in 30 seconds..."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

"You are illegally parked on Private Property. Remove your Vehicle... you have 15 seconds to comply."

[Medicineman]

"You are illegally parked on Private Property. Remove your Vehicle... you have 15 seconds to comply."

....oO( ahhh, the good ol' Days.....Can I buy that for a Dollar ? )

with an absent Minded Dance
Medicineman

[FriendoftheDork]

....oO( ahhh, the good ol' Days.....Can I buy that for a Dollar ? )

with an absent Minded Dance
Medicineman

That's kind of the feel I'm going for in my 2049 game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Going out to the nightclub to meet Mr. Johnson? Sunglasses for everyone. Going to a sewer to run against a megacorp? Sunglasses and Katana on the back.

[Sendaz]

. Going to a sewer to run against a megacorp? Sunglasses and Katana on the back.

And Awakened Gators in said sewer

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And Awakened Gators in said sewer

"I'd buy that for a Dollar"

[Sengir]

Going to a sewer to run against a megacorp?

...hired by Biogene, by chance? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[FriendoftheDork]

...hired by Biogene, by chance? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

*cocks gun* you know too much.

Converted most of the enemies and added a more interesting sewer encounter I stole from Shadow Adventor's group on youtube.

They are out of the sewer now, and almost gotten the paydata inside the facility. Strangely enough no one is seriously hurt, and these are almost street level operatives. The fireball from our combat shaman with 14 hits really cut the combat against 4 Spike troll gangers short...

You played that run yourself then?

[Flaser]

Am I the only GM who has his rent-a-cop teams take firing positions with guns planted on desks, walls and use the sling as a makeshift harness? Granted, the killer tends to be the ambush itself not the minor recoil compensation the make-shift fire-positions provide.