New metamagic, help please, Expanding Summoning Options

[Kesendeja]

I have a player who would like to summon more types of spirit than the five granted by their tradition. In concept I really dont't have an issue with this, and I'm thinking of creating a metamagic to handle it. My question is, how many additional types of spirit should each level of metamagic grant?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I have a player who would like to summon more types of spirit than the five granted by their tradition. In concept I really dont't have an issue with this, and I'm thinking of creating a metamagic to handle it. My question is, how many additional types of spirit should each level of metamagic grant?

No more than a single additional spirit per instance of the Metamagic (NOT per Initiate Grade).
Note that it will dillute the Traditions if you allow such a thing, but it may be fun.

[Stahlseele]

Also:
No chosing at will what you get.
Roll the dice. Magic is too powerfull as it, without getting to mix and match stuff.

[KCKitsune]

Also:
No chosing at will what you get.
Roll the dice. Magic is too powerfull as it, without getting to mix and match stuff.

Though I would temper that with no getting toxic or insect spirits. This metamagic is meant to help the player, not damn him.

[Stahlseele]

*shrugs*
might make for some nice character developement.

[Zednark]

Though I would temper that with no getting toxic or insect spirits. This metamagic is meant to help the player, not damn him.

Maybe select one, and roll dice equal to 2x initiate grade, for a threshold of 2. On success, you get what you chose. On a failure, roll on the non-toxic, non-insect table. On a glitch, roll a die and call evens or odds, failure means you roll on the insect/toxic table. A critical glitch means you automatically roll on the insect/toxic table.

[freudqo]

I'm with Tymeaus on this one. One additional spirit per instance.

I disagree that one should roll for that… I don't see shadowrun magic working that way. The idea of having a test to see if you can upgrade the metamagic seems sound though. But just to see if it works or not.

[Kren Cooper]

I would also go with one extra spirit type per grade / purchase of the "expanded summoning" metamagic.

I'd also give the player the option of what type of spirit they wanted to shoot for, and let them make a test against a variable target number:
N.B. - I know nothing about 5th ed, so this is phrased in terms of 3rd ed magic, and may not be 100% relevant - but the theory holds...

If they were a shamen, then the lowest target number would be for a nature spirit ( so same tradition), but one not normally associated with their Totem. If a hermetic, then I would look at a hybrid half/half elemental (i.e. they can do fire, earth, air, water - they might get mud (earth/water mix) or steam (water/air mix) - with some interesting new powers or mix of abilities.

The middle target number might be a spirit type from the "other" tradition - Nature spirit for a hermetic, Elemental for a shaman.

A higher target number for an "opposing" type - for an a aspected water conjourer to learn how to summon fire elementals for instance.

And last of all, I might set a really hard test for "special weird off the wall unique spirits", hinted at, but not defined until the players gets one - and use that to fuel a campaign twist.

[Ophis]

I've long been considering this, but as part of a chain of Metamagics.

The first is Secondary Tradition - The Mage has studied the methods of another tradition and now counts as one for working together and using foci. Pick a second tradition that uses a different Drain stat. This is based conversations with real world occultists about using one style of magic primarily and also using another style - pretty much the basis of Chaos Magic - I'd consider giving Chaos Mage Initiates this for free.

Then you can start buying the spirits of your second Tradition one per metamagic. I would limit this to none Mystic Adepts.

[Iduno]

Perhaps only require a roll if they're just looking for a new spirit type to add to their repertoire (sure, I'll help. I'm a good spirit, trust me). You might want to roll for the player, maybe adding or subtracting dice based on roleplay. Getting a sketchy spirit who the player thinks might be toxic might be just as fun as having one who really is.

If they have someone of a similar enough tradition show them, and they roleplay well, let them learn it with the karma and initiation or very easy roll. Base "similar enough tradition" on the rules for learning spells from someone who isn't your tradition.

[freudqo]

You might want to roll for the player, maybe adding or subtracting dice based on roleplay. Getting a sketchy spirit who the player thinks might be toxic might be just as fun as having one who really is.

Yeah, because he's just, you know, paying karma for that. He should totally get the right to pay karma and get fucked up too on a GM's whim.

[Kren Cooper]

Yeah, because he's just, you know, paying karma for that. He should totally get the right to pay karma and get fucked up too on a GM's whim.

If you're going to "get fucked up" by your GM, then it doesn't matter if you pay Karma or not, surely?
GM's are gods, with total power over the system in every way but one - they don't control if the players turn up or not.

A GM making life interesting for a player is one thing, but "fucking them up" is another. GMs are, and always have been, a trusted position. If your GM is abusing that, you have an issue. Conversely - it's good to remind a player that they live in a big world, and the world doesn't always have clearly understood rules (they should be there, and the GM should be internally consistent - but that doesn't mean the player will understand).

[freudqo]

GM's are gods, with total power over the system in every way but one - they don't control if the players turn up or not.

No they're not god, and never have been, in the sense that they have total power over the system. The system has rules, that they have to obey too. House rules have to be agreed on by all the players of an RPG, which includes the GM and the PCs. True, I've known GMs who thought so and abused it, but it means they were essentially cheating.

And if you really try to answer your first rethorical question, you'll see easily that indeed it's better to get fucked up without paying karma.

[SpellBinder]

SR4 technomancers had the option to learn an echo in order to compile an additional type of sprite. As an option in my games I let magicians and mystics do the same as a metamagic option (buy multiple times, gain another spirit type each time), just as has been stated above.

There was a limitation, though. Each additional type of spirit being summoned did not get attached to a particular school of magic. No hermetics having a bound guardian spirit helping with combat magic, etc.

[Kren Cooper]

No they're not god, and never have been, in the sense that they have total power over the system. The system has rules, that they have to obey too. House rules have to be agreed on by all the players of an RPG, which includes the GM and the PCs. True, I've known GMs who thought so and abused it, but it means they were essentially cheating.

And if you really try to answer your first rethorical question, you'll see easily that indeed it's better to get fucked up without paying karma.

I think you miss my point - if your GM is playing to "fuck you up", then you're playing with the wrong GM. At this point, for me, it doesn't matter if I paid karma or not - I'm sitting at the wrong table. I don't want to play at a game where the GM is that kind of dick.

And I also disagree about GM's not being gods. In the game world, they can make it rain, or shine, cause famines, earthquakes, beautiful religious ceremonies that create positive background counts, atrocious and awful acts of barbarism that creates mana warps, riots that topple a good leader, demagogues that put a despot into power. If that's not Godlike - then we differ in definitions a great deal. None of those had to do with rules - printed or house, but they have the power to cause all those events to happen in their narrative.

[freudqo]

I think you miss my point - if your GM is playing to "fuck you up", then you're playing with the wrong GM. At this point, for me, it doesn't matter if I paid karma or not - I'm sitting at the wrong table. I don't want to play at a game where the GM is that kind of dick.

My point was tackling a very specific situation: one in which the GM could decide based on his sole opinion of your roleplaying about the specific advancement of your character. Like if you say "I spent X karma to get +2 in Strength" and the GM answers "well, you didn't really roleplay your character going to the gym, so you get +1 Strength only and -1 in Body". Such a rule is asking this attitude from the GM, and this is terrible.

And I also disagree about GM's not being gods. In the game world, they can make it rain, or shine, cause famines, earthquakes, beautiful religious ceremonies that create positive background counts, atrocious and awful acts of barbarism that creates mana warps, riots that topple a good leader, demagogues that put a despot into power. If that's not Godlike - then we differ in definitions a great deal. None of those had to do with rules - printed or house, but they have the power to cause all those events to happen in their narrative.

You said: "GM's are gods, with total power over the system". I specifically quoted this in my answer, because there are several way to define a god, and you were using one in which the GM could change the system. If the game rules say "there will be no famine in Shadowrun", then the GM cannot do some of the things you said.

If you want to say that the GM is a god in the way that he decides what happens to the rest of the world, indeed he is. But that's so irrelevant to a conversation where we were talking about Player Character's advancement that it's clearly you who were mistaken about your definition.

[Stahlseele]

IF the GM even allows this potentially completely OP Metamagic at all, he is well within his rights to make it different.

[freudqo]

IF the GM even allows this potentially completely OP Metamagic at all, he is well within his rights to make it different.

Sure. I'm just saying the precise mechanics of the GM grading your roleplaying before granting you some type of spirits that might be noxious to you is bad, especially that you're using it as a metamagic, so you spent karma to initiate in order to obtain it.

[Iduno]

Oh, you don't spring something like that on the players without them knowing. Make sure everyone knows the rules and how small of a chance there is of it going bad and agree on how that would be determined before making a choice. Some players will be more risk-averse, some would enjoy gambling with a character's sanity. But that's up to the player.

[freudqo]

Oh, you don't spring something like that on the players without them knowing.

I didn't infer the contrary.

[Modular Man]

SR4 technomancers had the option to learn an echo in order to compile an additional type of sprite. As an option in my games I let magicians and mystics do the same as a metamagic option (buy multiple times, gain another spirit type each time), just as has been stated above.

There was a limitation, though. Each additional type of spirit being summoned did not get attached to a particular school of magic. No hermetics having a bound guardian spirit helping with combat magic, etc.

I agree. This way the new houserule is simple, easy and with a simple small catch. I like that.*

It will, of course, still change the game world as it is. This seems to have been taken into account, though.

*However, I have only very limited experience with SR5. SR4, I would use it this way.

[SpellBinder]

Yeah. With SR5 it would have to be made more complicated as per the way they've redone metamagics, and an additional cost somehow as just paying karma probably wouldn't be near enough of an expense for the benefit. Maybe a mandatory expenditure of reagents just to summon said spirit from outside your paradigm, and double or triple that for binding.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah. With SR5 it would have to be made more complicated as per the way they've redone metamagics, and an additional cost somehow as just paying karma probably wouldn't be near enough of an expense for the benefit. Maybe a mandatory expenditure of reagents just to summon said spirit from outside your paradigm, and double or triple that for binding.

I disagree with the need for more complications. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[SpellBinder]

I disagree with the need for more complications. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oh, so do I. If I ever ran SR5 I'd do this metamagic the same way as I said I have it for SR4.

But this is SR5 we're talking about here, and it's made for extraneous complications. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Modular Man]

But this is SR5 we're talking about here, and it's made for extraneous complications. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'm keeping this for future reference (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)