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> Tangled Currents - OOC
Mercy
post Feb 4 2017, 04:46 PM
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Starting an OOC thread for Tangled Currents on this site.
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Imladir
post Feb 4 2017, 07:51 PM
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I'll answer as soon as I'm back from my current game in a couple of hours.
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Stuttrboy
post Feb 4 2017, 08:57 PM
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Red 5 standing by
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Imladir
post Feb 4 2017, 10:22 PM
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I hope you're not the one from Rogue One, that one didn't end well ^^
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Imladir
post Feb 6 2017, 12:59 AM
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It would make some things so much easier if Cynthia had the habit of hacking the 'links of the people she meets... That's almost too bad ^^

QUOTE (dluxcru @ Feb 6 2017, 01:58 AM) *
[>>Jackie Talon [Hikari] I'm fine, but need that comm code fast. <<


Just so you know and don't expect miracles... Finding a device based on his commcode is a real PITA, and almost impossible to do.
If the 'link in question is on, and you know where it is within a 100m, it's relatively easy. Otherwise it's very difficult and really not straightforward. Unless you call and keep the person on the line for a while of course, but even then...
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Imladir
post Feb 6 2017, 04:55 PM
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I don't know if it was my best or my worst idea yet, but probably one of the two... Let's hope for the best option (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

By the way, for those who wonder (if anyone does anyway...), why Nimue, it's a reference to Cynthia's submersion, where the colour blue and the waters of a lake-like thing were important features. Nimue is one of the names of the Lady of the Lake in Arthurian legends. And it's the true name of the main character in Weber's Safehold, but that's another thing entirely.
For a while I considered using something like Azure or things like that, but that was taken by Hikari ^^
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Bastard
post Feb 8 2017, 05:35 AM
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Okay... Now I am OoCing in the correct thread.
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Beta
post Feb 9 2017, 09:35 PM
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I hope that some of you paying attention in this thread have more matrix experience than I do. Can you check if I have the following straight?

Goal: Render ineffective at least two security cameras (we think it can be done with just two, three or more would be better but I assume it would just be more of the same). Presumably this is to be accomplished by looping the cameras.

Situation: Multiple (rotating) cameras atop a wall, need to make a window for someone to get over the wall without being seen and security not knowing that anything odd is going on at that time. Wall & cameras are at a private home, but the cameras are controlled by the (remote) security contractor rather than from something in the house. Direct connect to the cameras is out, because there is no way of doing so without being seen.

Questions:
- The cameras are protected by the strength of the security company host I think – is that right?
- I’m not clear if I have to enter into the host, find the icons for the cameras, and then edit the footage, or if I can hack them directly (but am opposed, I think, by the host rating rather than the device rating?)

If I have to go into the host, the process as I understand it:

1) Get near the cameras, to minimize noise penalty (I think being near the cameras, rather than near the security company, is adequate?)
2) Identify the grid that the security provider is on and get onto that grid. Depending on whether Preston has legit access to that grid, this may start over watch score counting?
3) Enter the security company host
a. Use ‘Hack on the Fly’ to mark host (failure alerts the host)
b. Use ‘Enter Host’ once I have a mark on it, to enter the host. (automatic success)
4) Use ‘Matrix Search’ to find the camera icons within the host (Preston should be able to get some info on the camera icons by ‘looking’ at them in the matrix first, so hopefully not too hard to find?)
5) Use Hack on the Fly to mark the file for the first camera
6) Use Crack Files to remove any security on the camera file
7) Use Edit File to do the looping bit
8 ) Repeat 5-7 for the second camera, and again if wanting to hit more of them.
9) Erase his marks (needed?)
10) Log out

All of that is assuming that I manage to avoid alerting anyone, and that security in the host doesn’t manage to spot me

If I can hack the cameras more directly, then I think it would be basically the same, but without having to enter the host and presumably not having to do a matrix search for the camera icons (they are right over there!)

I’m looking for understanding on whether or not I’d need to get into the security company host or not, and if I understand the hacking procedure properly.

ETA: and one more question: Preston has a specialty on his hacking for 'devices.' I'd assume that cameras are devices, however if he needs to go into the host then really he's just looking at data files, and it wouldn't apply, correct? But if he could do it by hitting the cameras directly then I think it would?
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Imladir
post Feb 9 2017, 10:31 PM
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For the two questions:
- Only if the cameras are slaved to the Host. In which case yeah, each of the stat in a pool can be replace by the one from the Host (so Host level for the characteristic + Firewall/DP/Sleaze rating)
- You can hack the cameras directly (assuming you can find them, nothing prevents them from running silent with the help of the Host). The difference is that if you're in the Host, you're considered as being directly connected to every slaved device.

1) It's a Host, if you hack that one, you don't have the distance component of the Noise as a penalty
2) It's a Host, it's present on every grid, no need to change yours (if you want to hack the cameras directly, then yes, otherwise you risk getting the -2d penalty)
3)
a. Yup
b. Yup
4) Once in the Host, you know the nature of each slaved device. The only difficulty might be that you don't know which camera is which. But since the camera doesn't defend itself, the roll in itself doesn't really matter.
5) Yup
6) If there is one, yes (and don't forget to check for Data Bomb, you never know ^^)
7) Yes but...
8 ) Here is the problem: "If you want to perform a continuous edit, such as removing your teammates from a video feed, you need to perform this action once per Combat Turn for as long as you want to keep the edit going." (CRB; p239). So two cameras = two complex actions by turn (so two IP) used just to edit the feeds.
9) You don't need to erase the Marks since...
10) Once you log out, you must (well... You should consider doing that as soon as possible anyway) reboot to reset your Overwatch Score.

For spotting you... From recent experience it's difficult (if not impossible) to remain hidden for long in a Host. The Patrol IC only needs to find you once, whereas you have to manage to stay hidden as long as you're in the Host. For example, let's say you have put your 7 (from the deck Tanya gave you, I'm jealous Tanya) in Sleaze with the Stealth program to boost that to 8. You run the Smoke-and-Mirrors program to 5 let's say (assuming you have 5 noise reduction capacity but it's not too difficult between the scrubber program, your datajack and a vectored signal filter module to add to the deck for the ridiculous sum of 800 nuyens), you add you logic Rating, and now you have a dice pool of 18d to avoid detection. Which is more than decent.

Let's say the Host is rating 5 (with Firewall 8, Attack 7, Data Processing 6 and Sleaze 5), which is reasonable given that it's a security host etc (if it's a good security company, you might get something higher of course). That means the Partrol IC has a dice pool of 10d to spot you. You might say "Yeah, no way, i'll do what I want freely". Except that it only needs to get lucky once. As you can see here (calculate, select the "At Least" button), the IC has 10% chance to spot you. It's pretty safe...but the longer you stay in the Host... (if you give 7 tries to the IC to spot you, it has 53% chance to do so at least once, which translates to 7d6+14 turns, so between 63s and just shy of 3 minutes).

On a level 6 Host, each try is at 16% chance of success (or failure, depends where you stand of course ^^), the interval between two checks is the same for the IC, but with 4 tries you're at 52% chance of being spotted once (so 4d6+8 turns, so between 36s and 96s). And of course, the higher the Host level, the worse it is. And in all that I forgot your overclocker quality, which means you could have +1 in Sleaze, but it only slightly alters the numbers, not the underlying message ^^

And all that to answer your question by: but you don't need to be in the Host at that time, just hacking the cameras from where they are will be enough. Note however that you get a Mark on the Host if the cameras are slaved to it (which is not enough to alert it to anything suspicious). Two final warnings : the Patrol IC could be tasked to check for Marks on the cameras (maybe, depends). After all, there aren't supposed to be any, so if it finds some, the Patrol IC will know something is wrong, alert the spider, yada yada. Same thing for the Spider (except that while for the IC it's debatable, for the Spider there's nothing that prevents her from doing it whenever she feels like it), who could check from time to time. Of course, since you're not in the Host, there's no way they'll find you with just that.

So in the end, you might ask "then what's the advantage of being in the Host?". The answer is simple here: you're directly connected to every device. If you've already marked one of the slaved device, you don't have to do it every time with the Host's protection. At some point, you're bound to alert the Host. The same Host I took as example previously would have a defence of 13d to resist your Hack on the Fly, in opposition to the measly 4d of normal cameras (or 6 if it's pretty nice cameras...). And you only have 9d (11d in VR) to do it. Once, with edge, sure, but twice or more... And that's with a low level Host (as far as security Hosts go anyway).

The Device speciality works for the Cameras, directly connected to them or not. But not for the Host, not for the files. So the Edit File action wouldn't benefit from it, only the Hack on the Fly on the cameras themselves. And Edit File is Computer and not hacking anyway.
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Imladir
post Feb 10 2017, 05:07 AM
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Hey by the way, was it a special week in the US? There hasn't been a lot of activity here on DS or on the official board in any of the games (or at least that's the impression I've had).
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Mercy
post Feb 10 2017, 08:14 AM
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Thank you for the good explanation for hacking.

Nothing special, just fragging busy and we got a bit of snow dumped on us. In February. In Alaska. Go figure. Anyway, have been busy a lot in shoveling snow at home and for mother. Plus the wife made plans for mandatory culture last night and tonight.

No excuses, just reasons. Sorry for the slow GM posting.
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Imladir
post Feb 10 2017, 11:59 AM
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Oh don't worry, it wasn't specifically for you, it appeared more global ^^

Of course, it might be that you're on so many games that all of them slow down when you're busy with other stuff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Beta
post Feb 10 2017, 03:29 PM
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The boards have been slow in general, not just games I think. The long dark winter wearing people down?

Imladir: any experience with agents -- this rig has a rating four, which I think limits the agent to rating four, so 8 dice on its pool? Which sounds like it is more likely to cause problems (get caught) than to help, but I might be missing something?
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Imladir
post Feb 10 2017, 03:44 PM
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You can have a rating 6 Agent on any deck, it takes one program slot (so you'd be at Agent, Scrub, Smoke-and-Mirrors and Stealth loaded up), the only limit the deck imposes is the same as you, on the limits.
It could be almost as stealthy as you (Smoke-and-Mirrors applies, the Sleaze is the one from you deck, and it adds its rating), but of course, that's all the more chances for the Patrol IC to spot something.

Agents have two main interests: teamwork tests to help, and monitor your persona to make sure you're not marked (though it needs to be with you in both cases, Host included). Plus, they can make matrix searches for you while you do something else.
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Imladir
post Feb 11 2017, 02:50 AM
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QUOTE (Stuttrboy @ Feb 11 2017, 03:41 AM) *
@Steve: Let's keep our cards close to the vest I don't trust these folks. It's too convenient that they want us to help them investigate the warehouse we were just going to check out. If it's a coincidence we have a payday but this might be a trap. Keep a drone on the van that's leaving. I want to know where they are going.


lol, if no one wants to talk, we're going to be there for a while :o
I almost want to hack your 'links and be done with it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Imladir
post Feb 12 2017, 07:16 AM
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QUOTE (dluxcru @ Feb 12 2017, 07:35 AM) *
RPC lined coat and scarf plus an ultrasound generator, some B&E tools, or save it for some really fancy RPC Hardened Milspec (100,000 or so). Hikari doesn't hesitate to spend signifigant amounts on good armor.


What does RPC stand for?
Regarding the mil-spec armour... You really want to walk in the streets looking like a tank?

And sorry for the answer on your thread :o
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dluxcru
post Feb 12 2017, 08:25 AM
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Ruthenium Polymer Coating. And it's not like I'd be wearing that stuff on the streets - you wear it when you're expecting to be taking on someone who can really put down the hurt. If I do wear it on the street, then it's with the RPC active at least, likely an improved invisibility spell, and a spirit running concealment to top that off. (Hikari is serious about her stealth! Conceal scent and manascape are likely the next two spells on my todo list, and they may get quickened).
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Imladir
post Feb 12 2017, 08:37 AM
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Both would be at 16F though, good luck finding that... And if it ever becomes known you have this kind of stuff you'll have all sorts of new problems.

For the Manascape, it would be able to hide your Aura, maybe the Improved Invisibility, but probably not the spirit's power. After all, it's only temporary, and you can't really change the parameters of a quickened spell.
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Mercy
post Feb 13 2017, 04:06 PM
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@Spokane and Cynthia We need to come to a consensus here. Players that stick too close to initial character design and claim all actions are based on what their characters will do to remain true to the design concept are potentially creating an issue that leads to group implosion. I have seen this several times in the past in other games, both pbp and tabletop. In real life, people adapt and in games people adapt to others or they go their separate ways and remain loners. It seems to me that in this case, there has been some attempt at easing tensions by Spokane but Cynthia is taking the narrow road and not listening. Can we agree to work together on this?

We have to consider that any game is made up of PCs that in real life would probably never even be associated together, yet are for the purpose of playing the game. We can split this group back up or continue, but something has to change at least a little if we are going to stay together.
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Imladir
post Feb 13 2017, 04:18 PM
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Like I said, Tanya had revealed pretty much everything important in message #10 then even more in message #24. Spokane was so concerned with the "coincidence" that he gave nothing. Am I the only one who felt that way?

I came to this thinking we'd come to know each other, share a bit of information learn to trust each other, etc. I was ready to share more than I would have in a similar situation given that Spokane is a PC. But what happened here in my opinion is that Spokane asked for information, then more information, while giving nothing in return up to the last post. Note that I didn't say I don't understand why. But it felt so one sided that I couldn't not react to that. Even if I can be understanding, at some point Cynthia has to say stop.

I only asked to be met halfway before saying more, and was left hanging. Or that's how it felt to me anyway. I mean look at messages 10 and 24. In those two, there's pretty much everything with the only exception of the anthrax and the mercenaries, while Spokane/Steve/Dog didn't share anything except that they made a preliminary recon of the place. Up to the very last message we don't even get an idea of what they're doing here in the first place. So sure, I'll readily admit that in the end Cynthia made things difficult, but come on...
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Mercy
post Feb 13 2017, 04:32 PM
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I think that in this case, Tanya wants everyone to have as much information as possible. She is too used to Johnsons that share nothing and wants to be different. And I do think that Spokane shared quite a bit of what he knows, especially with the last bit. It is your prerogative to withhold information and it is Tanya's to try to make sure that her team has everything it needs to be successful.

I am not asking that Cynthia make a sudden about face of her character, but I do think she might need to adapt just a little. I am not going to punish her for making an effort to get past her issues. I expect that people skills will come slowly, if ever, but that, as a PC in a game, she make an effort adapt to working in a group.

The same goes for Spokane and anyone else we decide to try to bring into this.

It is normal for PCs to keep some of their information secret, but keeping all of it that way can be detrimental.

I do not even know if I am stating this well, so please forgive me for any unintended slights.
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Imladir
post Feb 13 2017, 04:44 PM
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And that's exactly why Cynthia will understand why Tanya did it in the end. She won't like it for a while, but she'll understand.

Yes, Spokane shared in that last message. But up to that point, there was nothing at all regarding their goals or reasons for being here, the only thing was the drone's feed whereas before that Tanya didn't hide much. The only missing pieces were the anthrax and the mercenaries. Sure, Cynthia didn't say much. But Tanya did it for her. Hell, the job was to get Cynthia into the Host, it was said in messages #40, then again in #43:

QUOTE
give Cynthia a better chance at getting into their host to see what sort of shenanigans they are up to.


What more was there to say!?

Now I'll have her work on that, but I won't pretend it'll be easy because it won't. Especially now that she's accused to be the bad guy in all that when, once again, everything was in messages #10 and #24 for the circumstances, and #40 and #43 for what the "job" is. Now she's "mean", "paranoid", "snapping" at Tanya. She didn't even ask for their real names, only stating that the only thing she knew was fake names, and somehow she looks like the bully now. It's...

That's a very hard pill to swallow, both for her and for me. It feels like I'm being blamed for wanting some reciprocity before committing (same thing for Cynthia IC) and that's really not a pleasant feeling. At all. Maybe I'm too sensitive.

Charisma related stuff is the very next thing I'll spend my karma on, it was planned that way a while back. But even with that, it wouldn't have improved the situation, she would still have felt it was far too one sided. And now, really unfair.
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Stuttrboy
post Feb 13 2017, 05:37 PM
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From Spokanes point of view he was on a job and wasnt expected to know any thing about the mercs he had no idea othen than investigate this grainger warehouse. All he asked was what they were looking for and determing what was expected of him. Was he just following cynthia around and protecting here. he was looking for the goal he was being paid for. he was fine with being left in the dark. He wasnt expecting her to be galled at asking and the accusation of holding back info was confusing. He was being hired for a job, what info would have been expected of him?
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Stuttrboy
post Feb 13 2017, 05:47 PM
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Honestly I wasnt expecting an info dump just a little more clarity on what the job entailed.
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Imladir
post Feb 13 2017, 06:46 PM
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I don't see what more there was to say about that. Both Tanya and Cynthia understood that he wanted to know more about the circumstances and not the particulars of the job. Help Cynthia get into the Host and investigate the warehouse, there's nothing else to say: if they already knew what they were looking for, there wouldn't be a need to look... He didn't ask how to help Cynthia get into the Host. He didn't ask what part of the warehouse they wanted to investigate. He didn't ask if they were here for a file, a product, a piece of machinery. Instead, he asked for more information about the job. What were they to understand?

Spokane threatened Cynthia, twice, telling her she had better share information or be held responsible if anything went wrong. He pushed for more information, then pushed again. threatened her, now tries to shame her, all the while making it look like she's completely out of bounds asking for the reciprocity I was talking about earlier.

The information Cynthia wanted was something that would make her agree to share what she knew. Instead, she got nothing except accusations, threats, insults and now blame. If at any point Spokane had shared at least a bit regarding his own investigation, none of this would have happened, we would have had the reciprocity Cynthia wanted, and the gesture Mercy talked about with not sticking so much to the character design that it would prevent fruitful interactions. I wasn't expecting much, just a reference to it that could have given birth to a real sharing of information, little by little when everyone noticed they were on the same thing. But... Nada. Instead, Spokane deliberately and constantly put himself in the position of an employee and not a potential partner with his own interest in this.

So like I said, I'll agree that Cynthia dug her heels in at some point, but Spokane never even tried. Or that's how it felt to me at least.

And somehow, it's now up to Cynthia to back off, swallow insults and blame with a smile and make it work, when she doesn't think she did anything wrong. She will since there's not much choice, but... Let's say it'll take time to digest this.
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