Getting up to speed, new edition ahead? Options

[zeno]

Hi guys!

I have played Shadowrun during the 2nd and 3rd edition.
Just after The Year of the Comet was released our gaming group got split up (you know, life happend I guess).
But now people are showing interest again and I thought I would give one of my favorite game and setting a go (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
So I have been reading around and listened to some podcasts, over all people are happy with 5th edition.

But does anyone know of there is a new edition planned?
The signs are there. Not a whole lot of places have the rulebook in stock here in EU AND the Rigger book is released.
I'm not joking about that last part. Its the ender of editions we all know that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Beta]

They did recently re-print Street Grimoire (with a tiny bit of errata included), and I've seen reference to re-prints coming on another of the source books .... I think what has happened is that the original printings have finally sold out (it takes longer these days when many people will buy the cheaper .pdf versions), but they want to include errata in the next printings, they just struggle with the logistics so those next printings aren't happening as quickly as they could.

That they are putting the money into not just re-printing, but re-printing with errata, suggests to me that they are not about to imminently drop a new edition. If they were I think they'd just make a smaller print run (if any at all) with no changes. But I've had no real involvement with game economics, so I could be totally wrong.

They have said that work is going on for a technomancer book of some sort, and my expectation is tha technomancers will be the new riggers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) So until you see that coming out you are probably safe (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[binarywraith]

I wouldn't bet on a new Edition.

We're at the point that Catalyst hasn't updated most of the SR sites since 2014, and the Errata is only proceeding because Patrick Goodman has volunteered to take it on (presumably without pay) as a project.

I honestly do not think that Catalyst has sufficient resources to produce a new edition at this time, nor that it would be any good if they did. Hell, they haven't bothered to fix most of the known issues with SR5 that the fanbase called out at release almost five years ago until just recently.

[zeno]

I wouldn't bet on a new Edition.

We're at the point that Catalyst hasn't updated most of the SR sites since 2014, and the Errata is only proceeding because Patrick Goodman has volunteered to take it on (presumably without pay) as a project.

I honestly do not think that Catalyst has sufficient resources to produce a new edition at this time, nor that it would be any good if they did. Hell, they haven't bothered to fix most of the known issues with SR5 that the fanbase called out at release almost five years ago until just recently.

What was the problem(s) with 5th edition?

[Beta]

What was the problem(s) with 5th edition?

Mostly weak editing, which shows up in a number of ways.

- some typos
- the sample characters were built with different limitations than what made it to publication as the character rules.
- some very major errata (mystic adepts buy power points for karma each in character creations, rather than the 2 karma per point in the book, for example)
- some rather unclear rules (it is not entirely clear how counter-spelling works versus area of effect spells, for instance, since it says that counter spelling adds dice to a defense test, but there is nothing called a 'defense test' versus area of effect spells)
- some fairly poor organization, so that to figure out how some things work you have to jump around to three or more different sections of the rules
- a general organizational approach that makes it hard to find rules, as they tend to be buried near the end of long blocks of text, without anything to make them pop out to the eye if you are just scanning for what dice to roll.
- technomancers are widely regarded as being underpowered except for very particular builds, which can be a trap for new players who are excited by the concept


Personally I think that it is a pretty strong rule set -- we've found it to be very robust and enjoyable in play. So it isn't that the rules don't work, it is that they can be hard to figure out, given the book. Even taking just the CRB into account there are an awful lot of words, and you seem to be expected to read and retain the vast majority of them in order to play the game. Which in practice means that new groups tend to spend a lot of time flipping through the rules trying to figure things out. After two years of play we are still finding things that we missed or mis-read.

Which hasn't stopped us from having a lot of fun with the game! I do want to emphasize that part. There is a good game in there, you just have to work for it a bit.

(all just IMO. There are others on this board who have near-religious objections to the SR5 rules, for various reasons)

[zeno]

I see. Thank you for the heads up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[binarywraith]

Also the standard Shadowrun issue that demolitions and driving both have needlessly overcomplicated and math-heavy rules for no good reason.

I don't ever want to try and figure out by the book how to calculate damage for hitting someone with a car again. I have an example here for trying to calculate a simple, iconic demolitions use, blowing in the door of an apartment :

Say you slap a quarter kilo of minimum rating (6) plastique in a directional shaped charge (45 degree arc to only blow into the room) onto an apartment door to blow it in. Per the rules, one cannot use less than a kilo mathematically, as the math explicitly rounds down making less than a kilo effectively zero kilos.

Logic + Demolitions scores four successes. So our equation looks like this :

Rating + (Successes on Demolitions + Logic) x sqrt(number of kilograms of explosive)

[6 + 4] x sqrt(1) = 10 x 1 = 10

So we've got a DV 10 explosion.

An explosive’s Damage Value is calculated
as its Rating (modified by the Demolitions Test,
if you made one) times the square root of the
number of kilograms used (rounded down). The
Blast value for a circular explosion is –2 per meter,
while the Blast value for a directional explosion
(up to 60 degrees in a specific direction)
is –1 per meter. When explosives are attached
directly to a target, the target’s armor is halved;
otherwise the explosive has an AP value of –2.
If an explosion destroys a barrier, it creates a
cloud of deadly shrapnel that threatens an area
far bigger than the actual blast—the shrapnel blast
has a DV equal to the explosive’s DV minus the
Structure rating of the barrier, with a Blast of –1/m.

If a character intends to destroy a barrier (or knock a hole
in it), resolve the attack normally. Since barriers can’t
dodge, the attack test is unopposed. The purpose of the
attack test is to generate extra hits to add to the Damage
Value. If a character got no hits, then only apply the base
Damage Value. The only way a character could “miss”
is if he got a critical glitch on the attack test, thus proving
themselves literally unable to hit the broad side of a
barn. A character may use Demolitions as the attack skill
if he has the proper materials and time to set charges.

Before rolling the barrier’s damage resistance test,
adjust the modified Damage Value to reflect the type of
attack, as noted on the Damaging Barriers Table.

Now then, onto what happens when it goes boom.

First, the barrier gets to roll a damage resistance test, with structure + armor. Given this is a standard door, it has Structure 2 and Armor 4 per the chart on pg 197. However, since this is an explosive placed up against the door, we're not done with the math and ready to roll yet. Per the 'Damaging Barriers' chart on page 198, explosives in contact with the barrier get to use Base DV times two. As this section quotes a completely different method of blowing up a door than the one under Demolitions :

We're going to assume the Base DV of this explosive is the one calculated above, despite it having the results of a demolitions + logic roll added in, as the rules on 197 state that the table's results adjust the modified DV. So the next roll is as follows :

2 (structure) + 4 (armor) dice rolled vs 10 (base DV) x 2 (per damaging barriers chart)

So 6 dice vs DV 20.

Assuming an average roll on 6 dice, the barrier gets 4 successes. This leaves 16 DV unsoaked, which is more than the 2 structure the door has, and thus the door has been damaged!

Per 'Damaging A Barrier', page 197-198, The remaining 16 successes are divided by the door's structure to determine the extent of the damage. 1 square meter of hole is generated per multiple of the structure left over in DV. Thus here, a 8 square meter hole would be generated.

We'll assume most apartments don't have a 8 square meter door. Now back to page 436!

If an explosion destroys a barrier, it creates a
cloud of deadly shrapnel that threatens an area
far bigger than the actual blast—the shrapnel blast
has a DV equal to the explosive’s DV minus the
Structure rating of the barrier, with a Blast of –1/m.

The penetrating a barrier section on page 197-8 doesn't actually have any specifics at all as to how you actually destroy a barrier, only how to punch a hole in one. In this case, I'm going to go with the assumption that if the hole is larger than the object, that object is destroyed.

This door has clearly been destroyed!

Therefore, anyone on the other side of this door needs to soak :

The 10 DV (AP-2) (Minus 1 DV per meter as this is a directional explosion) explosion/blast effect itself.

-AND-

The secondary shrapnel explosion, at :

10 (Explosion DV) - 2 (structure rating of the door) with a Blast of -1 per meter.

So the door is gone, and the guy standing behind it is soaking two hits, one at 10DV (AP-2) and one at 8 DV.

As this is a shaped explosion, the people on the outside of the door do not have to soak it as well. If this was a standard spherical explosion, they would have to soak 10 DV (AP-2) -2 per meter from the door.

I have intentionally assumed this apartment is big enough that we don't have to calculate the blast reflection as well.


Now we move on to the next combat turn, and hopefully success on the part of the runners storming the apartment.


You see the number of assumptions I had to make up there? This is why I'm asking if this is an errata point or rules as intended, because there are details missing and conflicting rules in these two sections that need clarification. Also, there's a typo in the earlier part of that same rule on page 436. The rules for barriers are not on page 194 as quoted, they're on page 197.

[Beta]

Oh, and the vehicle movement table. Almost every group has that moment when they go to calculate how fast something is going with some boosts in place, and discovering what a bad idea it was to make the real world speeds an exponential function of vehicle speed rating. It is fairly easy to come up with scenarios where you break the sound barrier on a motorbike. It is not a big problem overall, but a few outright boneheaded things like that generate a lot of frustrations and hurt faith in the rest of the rules.

Which is a shame, because as I said before the rule set really is pretty solid overall.

[binarywraith]

Oh, and the vehicle movement table. Almost every group has that moment when they go to calculate how fast something is going with some boosts in place, and discovering what a bad idea it was to make the real world speeds an exponential function of vehicle speed rating. It is fairly easy to come up with scenarios where you break the sound barrier on a motorbike. It is not a big problem overall, but a few outright boneheaded things like that generate a lot of frustrations and hurt faith in the rest of the rules.

Which is a shame, because as I said before the rule set really is pretty solid overall.

Don't forget reaching escape velocity on rollerskates, or going to a significant fraction of light speed with the right spirit powers and physad powers together.

[Jaid]

i don't think i've seen too many people complain greatly about the basic mechanics.

the main things i've seen people hate:

- technomancers suck
- technomancers exist

(yes, both of those. some people want them gone, or at most only exist as NPCs. those who don't want them gone, well, they'd like to be able to make a technomancer more than one way, and no, "all i can do is slightly boost other people at the cost of being useful myself in any way" does not count).

- wireless bonuses are stupid

(some of them are fine; the survival knife has a GPS app in it that only works when it's connected to the matrix? no problem! your oxygen tank somehow receives a signal faster when you route it though the matrix instead of through the direct internal wired connection inside you? no thanks).

- the editing is so bad it's like they're trying to screw up

(no seriously, we know that errata which was submitted before the books were published made it into the release version. previews that they've put out pre-release received proofreading by the fans (which is when it came out that certain things had been caught by the proofreaders and submitted) and still came out wrong. additionally, they've been really slow with errata, and the errata they've released hasn't fixed a number of glaring issues that were obvious within the first few days of the game being released. to be fair, they do seem to be trying to fix this - as mentioned, one of their freelancers has finally, after several years, started to get some stuff fixed).

[binarywraith]

- wireless bonuses are stupid

(some of them are fine; the survival knife has a GPS app in it that only works when it's connected to the matrix? no problem! your oxygen tank somehow receives a signal faster when you route it though the matrix instead of through the direct internal wired connection inside you? no thanks).

The survival knife is stupid as hell.

At what point are you going to need a survival knife for survival purposes and have Matrix access? If you have Matrix access, you can call a damn cab.

[Jaid]

The survival knife is stupid as hell.

At what point are you going to need a survival knife for survival purposes and have Matrix access? If you have Matrix access, you can call a damn cab.

i can imagine plenty of places in the barrens where you sometimes have matrix access and it's much better to have a knife (and a small assortment of tools) than to not have one.

granted, i'd rather have an assault rifle as well in those cases, but since carrying a knife does not exclude the possibility of having an assault rifle, i think there's nothing wrong with it. it isn't amazing, but it doesn't need to be.

[binarywraith]

i can imagine plenty of places in the barrens where you sometimes have matrix access and it's much better to have a knife (and a small assortment of tools) than to not have one.

granted, i'd rather have an assault rifle as well in those cases, but since carrying a knife does not exclude the possibility of having an assault rifle, i think there's nothing wrong with it. it isn't amazing, but it doesn't need to be.

Yes, but at what point in the Barrens are you going to need a GPS map in your knife? Because that's what the knife's bonus does. It doesn't make it any better at being a knife, it just provides you with a GPS map that only works in places that you already have sufficient wireless infrastructure to support a signal... so it's a knife with Google Maps installed.

That is a pointless item.

[bannockburn]

Yes, but at what point in the Barrens are you going to need a GPS map in your knife? Because that's what the knife's bonus does. It doesn't make it any better at being a knife, it just provides you with a GPS map that only works in places that you already have sufficient wireless infrastructure to support a signal... so it's a knife with Google Maps installed.

That is a pointless item.

Not that I'm a fan of the wireless bonus, but ...
Pointless items are a staple IRL. Just watch a generic homeshopping TV station for a while.

Nothing wrong with idiotic items available for sale, and they can even give flavor, IMO.

[binarywraith]

Not that I'm a fan of the wireless bonus, but ...
Pointless items are a staple IRL. Just watch a generic homeshopping TV station for a while.

Nothing wrong with idiotic items available for sale, and they can even give flavor, IMO.

Yes, but that idiotic design philosophy is all over the rest of the wireless bonuses, which are intended to be the justification for players not simply using all throwbacks rather than engage with the bricking rules.

In short, they are a large piece of bad game design.

[Mantis]

My favourite is the silencer that has a microphone that can somehow tell you if someone heard the silenced shot you just took, but only when hooked into the matrix. So what happens? It scans to see if someone says 'hey did you just hear a gunshot?' Dumb. I know the errata version makes it clearer how this is supposed to work but a mike on a silencer isn't going to last very long.

[Jaid]

Yes, but at what point in the Barrens are you going to need a GPS map in your knife? Because that's what the knife's bonus does. It doesn't make it any better at being a knife, it just provides you with a GPS map that only works in places that you already have sufficient wireless infrastructure to support a signal... so it's a knife with Google Maps installed.

That is a pointless item.

Yes, but that idiotic design philosophy is all over the rest of the wireless bonuses, which are intended to be the justification for players not simply using all throwbacks rather than engage with the bricking rules.

In short, they are a large piece of bad game design.

....

ok, quick question: when you hear "survival knife", what do you think of?

because i think of something like this.

it isn't a fighting knife. it is a knife with a bunch of gadgets that have absolutely *nothing* to do with it being a knife built-in.

and, in fact, the description in the SR5 book makes it fairly clear that it is the 207X version of those knives. having a hollow handle doesn't make something a better knife. having matches, or a compass, or a wire saw, or a variety of other things don't make something a better knife. and they aren't intended to.

but seriously, what kind of wireless bonus do you want for a knife? the matrix shouldn't make a knife better at being a knife. the survival knife is not like the other matrix bonuses, which tend to have key functionality for gear that you'd expect to find on black ops teams requiring matrix access, or which should be impossible, or both. in contrast, the survival knife makes sense for what it is, and should actually be something that matrix access would reasonably allow you to do. it does not require a signal that travels backwards in time, or that the matrix somehow use telekinesis to prevent your monowhip from slicing your head off, or that your stun baton generates electricity by broadcasting EM waves, for example.

now, most of the rest of the wireless bonuses can have some pretty screwy things. the survival knife? not so much. if it was in a regular knife, then yeah, that would be weird.

[binarywraith]

I don't want a wireless bonus on a knife, beyond perhaps 'I can ping it to find it when I lose it in my grotty doss', because there are none that make sense to put on a knife.

Two terrible assumptions of SR5 design at work :

1. Everything must have a wireless bonus because reasons.

2. Thusly everything must be hackable.

[Mantis]

I don't want a wireless bonus on a knife, beyond perhaps 'I can ping it to find it when I lose it in my grotty doss', because there are none that make sense to put on a knife.

Two terrible assumptions of SR5 design at work :

1. Everything must have a wireless bonus because reasons.

2. Thusly everything must be hackable.

I think those design assumptions are reversed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Everything must be hackable thus everything has wireless bonuses. Still terrible.

[Glyph]

They could have been done right, but it is the implementation that is bad. IIRC, the freelancer who worked on a lot of them was under the impression that they would be PAN bonuses rather than wirelessly-broadcasting bonuses. I mean, it is ludicrous to say that two internal, DNI-enabled augmentations such as wired reflexes and reaction enhancers need to be connected to the Matrix to be able to work together.

SR5 will be a shock if you are coming in from SR3, because it is more a continuation from SR4, which marked a huge change in the rules from previous editions. It changes a few things for the better and a few from the worse (from SR4). It's main two problems are that the exodus of talent left some good people, but also some people woefully ignorant of Shadowrun's lore and game mechanics. This could be fixed except for the second problem, a massive editorial failure at the production level.

Graphically and art-wise, the books have never looked better, but the rules are haphazardly organized and riddled with vagueness, inconsistency, and errors. It's a shame, because despite that and a few horrendous rules (wireless/bricking, how background count affects adepts, etc.) it has some good ideas in it, too.

[Sengir]

AND the Rigger book is released.
I'm not joking about that last part. Its the ender of editions we all know that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Well, this time they trolled that rule by releasing the rigger book before the monster manual (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Neraph]

Don't forget reaching escape velocity on rollerskates, or going to a significant fraction of light speed with the right spirit powers and physad powers together.

In SR4 I could easily build a 400BP character that goes about mach 4.6 or so.

[Wakshaani]

Well, this time they trolled that rule by releasing the rigger book before the monster manual (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You have no idea how hard I pushed for the Rigger book to be the FIRST splatbook after the core.

No. Idea.

[tisoz]

Every new edition is another nail in SRs coffin. It fragments the fan base, not just the current base but the future base because newbs ask which edition they should go to, or players recruit people to play the version they play.

I saw a guy ask which book to get for setting info and I started to reply, then deleted most of what I had. Part of the deleted was looking back to SR1. I was amazed at the sheer volume of books for that edition and it was the shortest lived edition. They didn't even get to cheat and cut and paste the majority of the contents. It reinforced my belief that new editions are mainly money grabs by people with little talent for creating content.

[Trillinon]

Every new edition is another nail in SRs coffin. It fragments the fan base, not just the current base but the future base because newbs ask which edition they should go to, or players recruit people to play the version they play.

This is verifiable true. Though, sometimes a new edition is warranted, and can help grow the brand by drawing attention to it. D&D 5E is an example of a new edition done well and for the right reasons.

I don't believe that SR5, as it stands today, is primed for long term success. The core rulebook is too inaccessible, and the team has struggled to develop compelling sourcebooks, let alone a pattern of new material that will keep people engaged without increasing the barrier to entry.

But, they may turn that around without a whole new edition. A half-edition update that simply improves the core rulebook could be a great improvement to the game. As for the rest, who knows what the right answer is. Possibly a focus on annual metaplot books.