Taking another swing at the Automatics problem, Sanity-check me, please. Options

[Tanegar]

For those of you just joining us, one of SR4/SR20A's small-but-still-irksome issues is that, of the three skills in the Firearms group, Automatics is far and away the most useful. Pistols covers single-action and double-action handguns, Longarms covers shotguns and bolt-action and semiautomatic rifles, and Automatics covers everything else. Machine pistols (do everything a light pistol does, plus have the option of autofire), submachine guns (do everything a heavy pistol does, plus have the option of autofire), and assault rifles (just plain better in most situations) all fall under Automatics.

I wracked my brain for the longest time, trying to come up with a better way to divide the various categories of firearm, and came up empty. Then I hit on the idea of defining the skills by what you're doing, rather than what you're using.

New Rules
The Firearms group still contains three skills: Short-Barrel Marksmanship, Long-Barrel Marksmanship, and Autofire. Short-Barrel Marksmanship covers pistols, machine pistols, and submachine guns fired in SS or SA modes. Long-Barrel Marksmanship covers carbines, rifles, and shotguns fired in SS or SA modes. Autofire covers all non-Heavy Weapons fired in BF or FA modes. That is, if you squeeze off one round from your Ares Alpha, you roll Agility + Long-Barrel Marksmanship. If you squeeze off three or more rounds at once, you roll Agility + Autofire.

Dumpshockers, am I completely out in left field, here? I can live with the rules not being realistic; Shadowrun has never been particularly concerned with realism, after all. I want this to be easy to learn, remember, and apply, and to make Automatics not be the One Firearms Skill To Rule Them All.

[bannockburn]

I've played with exactly that as a suggested house rule by ... someone. i forget the name, so imagine me giving them credit.

Use automatics for everything fired in BF and FA (including automatic pistols)
Use long arms for every long arm fired in SA / SS, except heavy weapons
Rename pistols to short arms and use it for pistols / automatic pistols / submachine guns (debatable if you want them in long arms or not) fired in SA / SS.
Use heavy weapons for every heavy weapon, because the skill is underutilized as it is, regardless of fire mode.

Worked fine. I didn't end up using it, because my players use diverse skill sets when building characters and not necessarily what's the best bang for the buck. So it was back to RAW in this case.

[JanessaVR]

I like the sound of this. Good timing, too, as I'm currently in the middle of an update/overhaul of our house rules document. I'll propose this for inclusion to the other members of our "House Rules Committee." Thanks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KCKitsune]

To me honestly, it's stupid to separate out pistols and automatics.

I would say have two skills

Firearms: Pistols of all types, Assault Rifles, SMGs, and shotguns
Heavy Weapons: Same as SR4, but add in Sniper rifles.

I know what everyone is going to say: "But KC, that's too powerful!" and my reply to that is "What is so different between rifles and pistols?" I've shot both and while I'm not a world class marksman by ANY stretch of the imagination, I was able to hit the target pretty decently with both. I know the shooting stance is different, but honestly, it was NOT hard to switch between the two.

The reason I say put Sniper Rifles into heavy weapons is first most sniper rifles ARE heavy weapons. They use a really BIG fragging bullet (a .50 cal round is a the same between a sniper rifle and a M-2); and second, you most likely use heavy weapons at a long range so have to learn to lead the target... useful for snipers and the guy with the grenade launcher.

[Glyph]

I am more with KC on this one, although I might break firearms up into short arms and long arms, and keep heavy weapons as is. If you are house ruling, that is. I don't like dividing skills up by firing mode, because then you will often need two skills to use the same gun.

[Mantis]

This is what we did. We got rid of the firearms group completely. Now we have small arms (everything up to and including SMGs) and long arms (everything up to and including sniper rifles). Heavy weapons still covers whatever is in that skill set and is unchanged. Works fine and there have been no issues with it being over powered or anything

[DeathStrobe]

Honestly firing a pistol and a rifle aren't really that different.

However, doesn't it seem more weird that grenade launchers, rocket launchers, and heavy machine guns all get lumped in to the heavy weapons skill.

Honestly the individual skills should just be done away with and everyone should just get the firearm skill group.

Like wise, using a sword, knife, axe, and pole arm are not very similar either. And shouldn't there be more types of clubs?

[Jaid]

Honestly firing a pistol and a rifle aren't really that different.

However, doesn't it seem more weird that grenade launchers, rocket launchers, and heavy machine guns all get lumped in to the heavy weapons skill.

Honestly the individual skills should just be done away with and everyone should just get the firearm skill group.

Like wise, using a sword, knife, axe, and pole arm are not very similar either. And shouldn't there be more types of clubs?

you haven't even mentioned vehicles. motorcycles, cars, hovercraft, tracked vehicles, segways, go-carts, formula-1 racing cars, possibly most human-powered vehicles like bicycles and unicycles, and anything else that moves along the ground but not with legs is all one skill. battleships, jetskis, aircraft carriers, yachts, cruise liners. speed boats, fishing ships, sailing ships, possibly submarines (can't remember, too lazy to look it up) and possibly all human-powered watercraft (canoes, kayaks, rowboats, paddleboats, etc) use the same skill. and you use the same skill for fighter jets, blimps/dirigibles, helicopters, hot-air balloons, hang-gliders, regular gliders, airplanes, VTOL craft, vectored thrust craft, and possibly semiballistic vehicles.

i bet there's a lot more overlap between using swords and axes than there is between flying a blimp and flying a fighter jet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

(edit: this is probably done to make riggers, and especially drone riggers, not cost stupid amounts of karma. as i pointed out when someone complained that there was no "vehicle skill group"... the vehicle skills *are* groups, and you're getting a huge discount on them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

[Tanegar]

I am more with KC on this one, although I might break firearms up into short arms and long arms, and keep heavy weapons as is. If you are house ruling, that is. I don't like dividing skills up by firing mode, because then you will often need two skills to use the same gun.

Would you consider it better or worse to just have two skills: Small Arms (all pistols and SMGs) and Longarms (carbines, rifles, shotguns)?

[KCKitsune]

Would you consider it better or worse to just have two skills: Small Arms (all pistols and SMGs) and Longarms (carbines, rifles, shotguns)?

ANYTHING is better than the crap they have now. Your version works just as much as my version does, and is less likely to have people up in arms (pun intended (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ).

Question: Where would sniper rifles** be under? Longarms or in Heavy Weapons?

** == not trying to be obtuse, but I assumed when you put "rifles" in Longarms, you meant assault rifles.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

ANYTHING is better than the crap they have now. Your version works just as much as my version does, and is less likely to have people up in arms (pun intended (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ).

Question: Where would sniper rifles** be under? Longarms or in Heavy Weapons?

** == not trying to be obtuse, but I assumed when you put "rifles" in Longarms, you meant assault rifles.

Sniper Rifles should occupy space in the Rifles Skill. MOST sniper Rifles are not Anti-Material Rifles.

[Tanegar]

Aye, sniper rifles would go under Longarms. Logically, the Barrett Model 121 should go under Heavy Weapons, as an anti-materiel rifle; but, given that its damage is only 1P greater than the Ares Desert Strike, the crunch just doesn't support it.

[Jaid]

Sniper Rifles should occupy space in the Rifles Skill. MOST sniper Rifles are not Anti-Material Rifles.

never fired one, but i suspect even an anti-material rifle would generally have a lot more in common with a hunting rifle than with a HMG, even if the round is more or less the same as the HMG.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

never fired one, but i suspect even an anti-material rifle would generally have a lot more in common with a hunting rifle than with a HMG, even if the round is more or less the same as the HMG.

Very little difference save for the size of the bullet and the weight of the gun itself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Bearclaw]

I have to say that I preferred the way second ed broke it down. There were a limited number of skills, plus concentrations and specializations.
Firearms were covered by the Firearms skill. All of them. Hold out to assault cannon.
Then there were concentrations like SMG, and then specializations like UziIII. Each step down the path would cost you a step in the generalist path.
Firearms 6 would become Firearms 5/SMG 7, which became firearms 4/SMG 6/UziIII 8.

Because, until you start talking about launch weapons, it's mostly the same skill. Stable base, aim, breath control, squeeze don't yank, control the recoil, conserve ammo. There is an individual learning curve for each weapon, and for each style of shooting, but the basics are all the same. And in general, if you can already shoot, you can shoot anything.

[Dominious69]

never fired one, but i suspect even an anti-material rifle would generally have a lot more in common with a hunting rifle than with a HMG, even if the round is more or less the same as the HMG.

Actually, you're correct, an AMR (anti-material rifle) is nothing like an HMG. The AMR is going to be either bolt action or semi auto only fired from a bipod most likely but is nothing really but a very heavy weight version of a hunting rifle.
Only it is used for hunting trucks plain and simple. An HMG is going to be a heavy belt fed automatic weapon. Can you see the difference now, and why the Barrett is included as a long arm?

For a dose of real life, a barrett fifty cal generates about 67% more recoil than a standard 12 gauge shotgun when fired prone with a bipod. Fired from the shoulder (real bad idea) it is 2-2.5 times the recoil energy. But truth be told and contrary to SR5, the thing that really helps AMR's so effective is heavy bullets or rounds designed to damage heavy barrier materials. One such round is a 50 BMG penetrator which is in effect a APDS round with a tungston or DU core. There are scarce
heavily controlled, and very expensive to make. The most common AMR round in use today is what is called an API round or Armor Piercing Incendiary. There is video available of it being used against insurgents hiding behind concrete block walls. But the round penetrates the wall and hits the target behind it. In that video, you see what is called FRM (fine red mist) behind the wall. Not pretty when you realize what you are watching but damned effective. For decorum reasons I won't post the link to that video here.