[X] My Assistant

[KCKitsune]

See, this sort of thing makes me really frustrated. On the one hand, it's nice to know that these steps are taken. The rules are play tested. Feed back is gathered. This should all lead to a better product. But on the other hand, it seems all that effort is just tossed out the window.

I mean if the published product is the result of proofing and play testing and still so awful in so many places then it looks like the play testers and proofers are incompetent. But you're saying you do the job and it just gets ignored. Is the SR line at Catalyst really such a petty dictatorship that feedback that doesn't toe the party line gets turfed? What's more important here, a good product or someone's ego? It really just boggles the mind.

Actually I have a much more benign reason why play testers don't seem to work. It's the same thing with Games Workshop and 40K. They play testers that play the way the designers imagine it would be played. They don't send it out to groups who will look for ways to break the game. Games Workshop just put out their 8th Edition of WH40K... and guess what it's already breaking!

You don't play test by sending it to your buds. No. You send it to the assholes who will find EVERY way of breaking the game and then closing those loop holes.

[JanessaVR]

You don't play test by sending it to your buds. No. You send it to the assholes who will find EVERY way of breaking the game and then closing those loop holes.

This is the same principle behind programmers not being allowed to test their own code. They'll unconsciously shy away from anything that might cause an error, because they know how it's "supposed" to work. Real stress-testing is giving it to a group of people who have no idea what it's all about but will happily bang away at the keyboards and cause lots of errors. I had to learn this the hard way early in my programming career about two decades ago.

[binarywraith]

Actually I have a much more benign reason why play testers don't seem to work. It's the same thing with Games Workshop and 40K. They play testers that play the way the designers imagine it would be played. They don't send it out to groups who will look for ways to break the game. Games Workshop just put out their 8th Edition of WH40K... and guess what it's already breaking!

You don't play test by sending it to your buds. No. You send it to the assholes who will find EVERY way of breaking the game and then closing those loop holes.

Yeah, except even the storied ivory tower at GW is breaking down because they actually got tourney players to playtest 8th edition, and are publishing it in a way to allow hotfixes faster than 'new codex in a couple years'.

[KCKitsune]

Yeah, except even the storied ivory tower at GW is breaking down because they actually got tourney players to playtest 8th edition, and are publishing it in a way to allow hotfixes faster than 'new codex in a couple years'.

You and I must play very different games of 40K. There is one guy who's favorite list is 3 Baneblades and just enough IG for a battalion. To put it bluntly... he ALWAYS goes first because of the rule that the first person who finishes deploying unit goes first. 3 Baneblades put a LOT of hurt on a camper.

[binarywraith]

Known defect. Baneblade rules were done by Forgeworld, and like CGL they do all their rules writing in a vacuum, and outside of entirely self-contained stuff like HH, are incredibly hit or miss.

The 8th ed Forgeworld stuff so far has been a big miss. Probably going to get re-statted when the actual IG codex comes out later this year, because it's bad and the publishers should feel bad for letting it into the wild.

Besides, how big of a game are you running that he can rock 3 x ~700 point tanks that qualify as Lords of War plus infantry? Better question, why are you bothering to play the game with someone who would run a list like that as opposed to doing literally anything else with your time?

[KCKitsune]

Known defect. Baneblade rules were done by Forgeworld, and like CGL they do all their rules writing in a vacuum, and outside of entirely self-contained stuff like HH, are incredibly hit or miss.

The 8th ed Forgeworld stuff so far has been a big miss. Probably going to get re-statted when the actual IG codex comes out later this year, because it's bad and the publishers should feel bad for letting it into the wild.

Besides, how big of a game are you running that he can rock 3 x ~700 point tanks that qualify as Lords of War plus infantry? Better question, why are you bothering to play the game with someone who would run a list like that as opposed to doing literally anything else with your time?

BaneBlade is no longer Forgeworld. It was in the Imperium 2 Index. And also the way he had it set up, it only cost 577. So in a 2000 pt game he could have three of them without any problem. As for playing him... I usually don't, but come tourney time... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Anyways, back to Shadowrun and play testers... like I said, I think that Catalyst had play testers, but they were friends with the Devs and they didn't break the game the way assholes out in the wild will.

Second, the play testers didn't take one look at the wireless rules and went... "NOPE! Stupid as drek! Rewrite them!"

Finally, Catalyst Studios and Games Workshop both suffer from the same mental disorder. That disorder is "My drek don't stink." So if some thing is not working right. It's OUR fault! Not their's!

[Mantis]

They should learn to kill their babies. This was advice given to me in art school. Your first idea is never your best and you need to be ready to kill it and look at alternatives, no matter how much you may like it or think its the best thing ever. If everyone is saying it's shit don't ignore them, look at it critically and then if needed, into the dumpster and back to the drawing board. Learn to kill your babies.

[KCKitsune]

They should learn to kill their babies. This was advice given to me in art school. Your first idea is never your best and you need to be ready to kill it and look at alternatives, no matter how much you may like it or think its the best thing ever. If everyone is saying it's shit don't ignore them, look at it critically and then if needed, into the dumpster and back to the drawing board. Learn to kill your babies.

I'm glad I'm a Med Lab tech... so much easier than to having to destroy something you love. I get specimens, run them, report the results, and then forget about them. SOOOOO much easier! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DeathStrobe]

You all realize that the Matrix has never been a realistic simulation of computer networking, right?

The core fundamental concepts for the Matrix came from William Gipson's Neuromancer.

Why on earth would you want it to be realistic anyway? It's not fun or very playable to read through lines of code looking for a place where you can cause a stackover flow so you can start reallocating bytes of data to access the data you actually want. Likewise with real network security it doesn't take minutes or hours to do a hack, but months or years to find vulnerabilities in a system, which is unplayable in the scales that Shadowruns happen.

It's easy to criticize CGL, but the real difference between a hyper abstracted game system that represents hacking, and that of a realistic simulation of hacking; is basically playability.

You guys will either create a system that betrays the core concepts of the Matrix, or you'll just make something insanely unfun. A mystical magical Matrix is the right move, because there is no reason that a fantasy computer network in 60-ish years from now should be anything like what we currently have.

[binarywraith]

There's a line between 'this should be perfectly realistic' and 'well, I know one of our basic setting conceits is that magic and tech don't mix, but the Matrix is magic'.

[JanessaVR]

There's a line between 'this should be perfectly realistic' and 'well, I know one of our basic setting conceits is that magic and tech don't mix, but the Matrix is magic'.

Like I said, if the Matrix is magical, they need to finally come clean and admit it. And really, it is functionally magical now, but they keep up the blatant lie that magic and technology don't mix - clearly they do, or the Matrix wouldn't function.

This is the reason we've been retconning some Matrix functionality in our house rules, to try to bring this under control (or at least dial down the more ridiculous bits). That one of our players is actually a high-level engineer for a major telecommunications provider is helping me considerably.

[Jaid]

See, this sort of thing makes me really frustrated. On the one hand, it's nice to know that these steps are taken. The rules are play tested. Feed back is gathered. This should all lead to a better product. But on the other hand, it seems all that effort is just tossed out the window.

I mean if the published product is the result of proofing and play testing and still so awful in so many places then it looks like the play testers and proofers are incompetent. But you're saying you do the job and it just gets ignored. Is the SR line at Catalyst really such a petty dictatorship that feedback that doesn't toe the party line gets turfed? What's more important here, a good product or someone's ego? It really just boggles the mind.

to be clear, i am neither a playtester nor a proofreader for catalyst. i have been credited for proofreading one product (after it had been released in PDF) iinm, but that was a voluntary thing where i posted such a long list of errors on the dumpshock forums that i think Adam would've felt bad for not crediting me. also, that was 4th edition, not 5th.

i just know what we've heard on these forums from people who *are* proofreaders and freelancers. and what we've heard is that there are people doing those jobs, and that the corrections they make are not incorporated into the final version.

[KCKitsune]

You all realize that the Matrix has never been a realistic simulation of computer networking, right?

The core fundamental concepts for the Matrix came from William Gipson's Neuromancer.

Why on earth would you want it to be realistic anyway? It's not fun or very playable to read through lines of code looking for a place where you can cause a stackover flow so you can start reallocating bytes of data to access the data you actually want. Likewise with real network security it doesn't take minutes or hours to do a hack, but months or years to find vulnerabilities in a system, which is unplayable in the scales that Shadowruns happen.

It's easy to criticize CGL, but the real difference between a hyper abstracted game system that represents hacking, and that of a realistic simulation of hacking; is basically playability.

You guys will either create a system that betrays the core concepts of the Matrix, or you'll just make something insanely unfun. A mystical magical Matrix is the right move, because there is no reason that a fantasy computer network in 60-ish years from now should be anything like what we currently have.

Even if that is true Stobe, it would violate one of the laws of magic in Shadowrun... you need a mana sphere for magic to work. Last time I checked, the Matrix was quite alive and well in space.

Now they could have explained it that with quantum computing (or other appropriate sounding technobabble) that the ability to find a security hole in an OS is something that can be done in minutes, but that the computing technology needed to do this can't be fit into anything smaller than a Deck.

If the Devs went with something like this the I can see the return of the SR2 Essence cost for a Cranial Cyberdeck. It was not small... If I were to GM a Shadowrun game, then I would have it that a cybernetic cyberdeck would cost 2 Essence and NO CAPACITY! None of this "well it only takes 4 capacity to put it in a limb, so I'll get my hand chopped off and install it there." garbage.

Part of the reason I would have it that you HAVE to install it in your skull (if you go that route) is that a cyberdeck has to have DNI in order to function AT ALL, as it uses the human brain's ability in pattern recognition to assist it, and it has DIRECTLY wired in as even the few milliseconds it takes the signal to travel down the nerves, get processed by the deck, and transmitted back would be too much of a roadblock to on the fly hacking.

to be clear, i am neither a playtester nor a proofreader for catalyst. i have been credited for proofreading one product (after it had been released in PDF) iinm, but that was a voluntary thing where i posted such a long list of errors on the dumpshock forums that i think Adam would've felt bad for not crediting me. also, that was 4th edition, not 5th.

i just know what we've heard on these forums from people who *are* proofreaders and freelancers. and what we've heard is that there are people doing those jobs, and that the corrections they make are not incorporated into the final version.

So, just to make sure we're on the same page, James Hardy is paying people to proofread other people's work and deciding that it doesn't matter he'll publish what HE wants?

If that is the case, then I fear for the future of Shadowrun.

[DeathStrobe]

The Matrix being mystical doesn't mean magical. It means that its so complex that it's incomprehensible. Once again, this is a post singularity world. People don't need to understand how the under lying system works, but how to use the 3D abstractions to make it do what they want.

I pull a level and a secret door opens works both in a mansion in meat world and a host system in the Matrix.

This is a world where a computer virus destroyed the internet in 2029, and cyber commandos fought it in virtual reality across the entire internet. This is a world where the Matrix somehow became self aware and started to rewire children's brains to interface with the Matrix. This is a world where an elf decker fell in love with an advance computer program and gave it sentience. None of that can be done realistically.

[binarywraith]

The Matrix being mystical doesn't mean magical. It means that its so complex that it's incomprehensible. Once again, this is a post singularity world. People don't need to understand how the under lying system works, but how to use the 3D abstractions to make it do what they want.

I pull a level and a secret door opens works both in a mansion in meat world and a host system in the Matrix.

This is a world where a computer virus destroyed the internet in 2029, and cyber commandos fought it in virtual reality across the entire internet. This is a world where the Matrix somehow became self aware and started to rewire children's brains to interface with the Matrix. This is a world where an elf decker fell in love with an advance computer program and gave it sentience. None of that can be done realistically.

The Matrix was just rebuilt from the ground up not five years ago in-game, for the second time in the last few years.

This isn't some lost, forgotten mystic knowledge. The new 'wireless' Matrix was designed, by metahuman experts who are still around.

You are conflating the writers being bad at explaining (and keeping in mind) how their setting works with in-world physics.

[DeathStrobe]

The Matrix was just rebuilt from the ground up not five years ago in-game, for the second time in the last few years.

This isn't some lost, forgotten mystic knowledge. The new 'wireless' Matrix was designed, by metahuman experts who are still around.

You are conflating the writers being bad at explaining (and keeping in mind) how their setting works with in-world physics.

It'd actually be almost 15 years as SR is now in 2078 or 2079.

This is also a world where all encryption became breakable in 2065, and all devices are also routers and work perfectly to create a mesh network with no lag.

This is a world where an elf was able to copy people into the Matrix, and a dragon gave a known criminal a computer program that also copied people into the Matrix.

Do you expect that someone knows how Project Imago or JackBNimble works too? Or maybe they're just emergent Matrix phenomena because the code can't be understood. Once again, after 2029, no one understands how technology works anymore. The sixth world is a post singularity society. You can literally connect to an off the Matrix device from the Great Connection in Resonance Realms. And all this weird mystical shit that I've been talking about was before CGL, back with Wizkids and FASA. The Matrix having mystical elements has been core to the setting since at least second ed.

[ThreeGee]

There's a line between 'this should be perfectly realistic' and 'well, I know one of our basic setting conceits is that magic and tech don't mix, but the Matrix is magic'.

Except the mixing of magic and technology has always been one of the features of Shadowrun and does exist, even if it's so rare people think it doesn't.

In the first few pages of the 1st Ed core rulebook it talked about the 'Double-domed techs at MIT&T', academics who had advanced degrees in both Physics and Magic at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Thaumaturgy.

2nd Ed introduced Cybermancy, 3rd Ed FAB and other Manatech. It's always been there.

[binarywraith]

Cybermancy is specifically using blood magic, with all that entails, to get around the magic/tech limitation by essentially binding a metahuman spirit into it's own corpse.

FAB is just a novel use of a dual-natured organism.

Neither of these is remotely relevant to the entirely artificially constructed reality of the Matrix.

[KCKitsune]

Except the mixing of magic and technology has always been one of the features of Shadowrun and does exist, even if it's so rare people think it doesn't.

In the first few pages of the 1st Ed core rulebook it talked about the 'Double-domed techs at MIT&T', academics who had advanced degrees in both Physics and Magic at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Thaumaturgy.

2nd Ed introduced Cybermancy, 3rd Ed FAB and other Manatech. It's always been there.

Except there is no example of technomagic in the game. There is no magic commlinks. Yes the commlink can be made into a focus, but being magic does NOT enhance the commlink at all. It doesn't make it faster, better at ANY function, or even tougher. It's just a focus in the form of a commlink... no different than a focus in the form of a ring.

The cybermancy thing was just tricking the spirit to stay in the body. There is nothing truly special about the cyberware other than being delta grade. In fact considering delta grade cyber/bioware and, in SR5, gamma grade ware, why is being a cyberzombie even matter anymore? I mean give me 10 million nuyen and I can a pretty sick street sam with ALL the augmentation you would ever need. Granted a lot of that would be bioware, but the character I would be able to build would be able to do pretty much anything a cyberzombie would be able to do, but would not have a big flashing neon sign saying "HEY GUYS! LOOK AT ME, I'M A WALING ABOMINATION!!!" Which is why a Cyberzombie fails miserably. He is as subtle as a tac nuke. And yes, while his Essence would be below 1, it is still not in the category of a Cyberzombie.

Yes, my Gamma Sam would not have built in weapons other than cyberspurs, but lets be honest a cyber gun is a cute trick, but it's NOT a game changer. It's hard to change the ammo, and it takes up too much Essence/Capacity. An external gun is much easier to use, reload, and cheaper. Yes I know a Gamma Sam is not cheap, but compared to a cyberzombie, he's positively a bargain basement steal.

[lokii]

The Blood Mage Gestalt is an another example.

And of course there is The Lucifer Deck: (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Moreover, the entity that MCT's mage foolishly summoned is very, very old, and unlke any power on earth. It has infiltrated the telecommunications matrix with devilish cunning - and unless Pita can thwart it with her newly acquired magical powers, Seattle's throat will be wide open for the cutting....

Usually mana-technology combinations are rather low tech or function largely separate and interact just on a mechanical or similar level. Don't remember whether Lucifer was a true counter example to that.

[binarywraith]

Except there is no example of technomagic in the game. There is no magic commlinks. Yes the commlink can be made into a focus, but being magic does NOT enhance the commlink at all. It doesn't make it faster, better at ANY function, or even tougher. It's just a focus in the form of a commlink... no different than a focus in the form of a ring.

The cybermancy thing was just tricking the spirit to stay in the body. There is nothing truly special about the cyberware other than being delta grade. In fact considering delta grade cyber/bioware and, in SR5, gamma grade ware, why is being a cyberzombie even matter anymore? I mean give me 10 million nuyen and I can a pretty sick street sam with ALL the augmentation you would ever need. Granted a lot of that would be bioware, but the character I would be able to build would be able to do pretty much anything a cyberzombie would be able to do, but would not have a big flashing neon sign saying "HEY GUYS! LOOK AT ME, I'M A WALING ABOMINATION!!!" Which is why a Cyberzombie fails miserably. He is as subtle as a tac nuke. And yes, while his Essence would be below 1, it is still not in the category of a Cyberzombie.

Yes, my Gamma Sam would not have built in weapons other than cyberspurs, but lets be honest a cyber gun is a cute trick, but it's NOT a game changer. It's hard to change the ammo, and it takes up too much Essence/Capacity. An external gun is much easier to use, reload, and cheaper. Yes I know a Gamma Sam is not cheap, but compared to a cyberzombie, he's positively a bargain basement steal.

The whole.mana sink abomination part.of making a cyberzombe is, for some of those doing it, a feature rather than a bug. :/

[KCKitsune]

The whole.mana sink abomination part.of making a cyberzombe is, for some of those doing it, a feature rather than a bug. :/

Considering it DOES make the Cyberzombie harder to nail with magic, it's not that great of a feature.

[Jaid]

So, just to make sure we're on the same page, James Hardy is paying people to proofread other people's work and deciding that it doesn't matter he'll publish what HE wants?

If that is the case, then I fear for the future of Shadowrun.

well, probably a number of them volunteer their own time, and "payment" for many is probably in the form of "here's a coupon for X dollars worth of stuff at the catalyst shop", where it happens at all (as an example of where compensation isn't given, i understand that the freelancers have a forum provided by CGL where they can talk to each other, bounce ideas off each other while not violating NDAs, fact check each other's work, etc, and one of the things that happens there is many of them are willing to help in proofreading stuff before it is submitted, for which to my knowledge they receive no payment).

but yes... they do actually have a track record of being told when a bunch of stuff needs to be changed (for whatever reasons) and then doing absolutely nothing with that knowledge. it's a big part of why many of us have been surprised to see that actual errata is coming out for anything, because that's not something CGL has been good at, typically (though quite frankly, that errata is more the result of a freelancer (Patrick Goodman, i think) going the extra mile than anyone permanently employed by CGL... not sure if Patrick is being paid or if so, what form the payment takes, it's probably "unprofessional" and possibly a violation of contract for Patrick to share that information in any event).

but yeah, you know it's not a sign of confidence when the fans are surprised to see errata even when someone else is doing all the work to compile it.

(oh, and the missions team is usually a decent place to look for stuff that isn't errata, but *is* a change that needs to be made for something to be playable, because while the regular CGL employees can stick their fingers in their ears and pretend there are no problems, the missions team actually has to deal with the results of the poor editing and make rulings on how it works for official missions games, so they're often a pretty good place to look).

[KCKitsune]

(oh, and the missions team is usually a decent place to look for stuff that isn't errata, but *is* a change that needs to be made for something to be playable, because while the regular CGL employees can stick their fingers in their ears and pretend there are no problems, the missions team actually has to deal with the results of the poor editing and make rulings on how it works for official missions games, so they're often a pretty good place to look).

Did they fix the wireless nonsense? I mean honestly that is the one thing that bugs the crap out of me.

[binarywraith]

BaneBlade is no longer Forgeworld. It was in the Imperium 2 Index. And also the way he had it set up, it only cost 577. So in a 2000 pt game he could have three of them without any problem. As for playing him... I usually don't, but come tourney time... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Anyways, back to Shadowrun and play testers... like I said, I think that Catalyst had play testers, but they were friends with the Devs and they didn't break the game the way assholes out in the wild will.

Second, the play testers didn't take one look at the wireless rules and went... "NOPE! Stupid as drek! Rewrite them!"

Finally, Catalyst Studios and Games Workshop both suffer from the same mental disorder. That disorder is "My drek don't stink." So if some thing is not working right. It's OUR fault! Not their's!

Meanwhile, elsewhere in the tabletop world, GW's already got a FAQ out with errata, two weeks after release of the Forgeworld book and comments from players as to issues with it.

Catalyst is relying on a freelancer to do this how many years after release? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)