[IP] Panzerknacker Options

[Gilga]

Yeal replied "I can place the gas grenade, I should be sneaky enough. I think I need a gas mask for this gig."

[SquirrelDude]

"Mike probably has some spare, and if not I have one you can borrow to get used to wearing one through this"

Slobber put on his FBA helmet to get used to the vision restrictions and the respirator, put on some music, and began speaking through subvocal comms.

"So first things first. How do we want to deal with the guards on the outside of the building. I don't want to risk them tripping over an invisible bnc or kite while they fry the cyber security and we're inside shooting their friends.

"I could probably get one, maybe both, with 1 good burst from my Raiden. It's suppressed but still not the quietest option, but it may be the least complicated."

[Jack_Spade]

Schmitt interjected: "At least on that count we are in luck: The guard only patrol inside the bank, since they are on council ground and not ex-territorial. Of course we have to watch out for council police. But those will probably stay in their cruisers and only glance around. As long as we park our car not directly in front of the bank with running motor, we should be able to manage."

Mike replied: "Give me a few days and I can everyone of you sealed FBAs and a RP-cloak. Between those Anna's spell and maybe a concealing spirit from Flatline you should be nearly undetectable."

[Volker]

bnc changes to subvocals as well. "Can't see a flaw right now. With the mage gone, Kite can check the place out from the astral space and give us a thumbs up as soon as the guards are where they need to be.

Remember, apart from the ventilation system, I need to be jacked into the gear itself to deactivate. I can undo one cam, but it's going to proof difficult to take out all of them.
Unless, of course, I stay in the spider's seat and use his device. An option you seem to be stubbornly inclined to ignore. You can't steal the one moment from Anna when she actually said something really smart."

[Jack_Spade]

"I am reluctant to leave you at the spider's place both for security reasons as well as tactical considerations.
If you are there, we'd have to leave at least one person to watch your back with you. And if we come upon a technical problem that can't be solved easily remotely we will sorely miss you as well.
Beside that you'll always have to switch between the two hosts, unless you can leave an agent in place or something similar."
Schmitt replied.

[Gilga]

Anna suggested "Is there a way to 'spoof' his agents? They must have some credentials of their own and may continue operating autonomously for a while after the demise of their owner? Does that make sense? I am sorry if I am breaking the matrix rules or anything... I've seen something similar in one of the Titanium Crush thrillers...

Besides that... can we steal the 'dog' and use it for our own benefit?

[SquirrelDude]

Anna suggested "Is there a way to 'spoof' his agents? They must have some credentials of their own and may continue operating autonomously for a while after the demise of their owner? Does that make sense? I am sorry if I am breaking the matrix rules or anything... I've seen something similar in one of the Titanium Crush thrillers...

Besides that... can we steal the 'dog' and use it for our own benefit?

What would we use a dogbot for, and does anyone want to go through the trouble of rewiring the thing so that it doesn't automatically attack us?

[Volker]

"I firmly disagree, as fancy-talk says, but you're the A. Your wish is my command.

Then let's break the dilemma by using opt C. We get in, take down itsy-bitsy, snatch his deck, I log in - and then we go to the site and do what bad guys do.
C'est bon?"

[Gilga]

Anna suggested "The robo dog? Just for fun - can chase the guards and make a mess. Probably don't worth it if you are right.

How likely is the bank to be alarmed by taking down the spider? Perhaps we should do both in parallel? Another interesting concept is to incapacitate him with some drug that would prevent him from doing his job. Can you sleep and still be in a hot sim? That way if our work is discovered itsy bitsy gets fired but the bank may not be otherwise alarmed. "

[Volker]

bnc just ostentatively face-palms herself instead of answering to the dog suggestion.
"Slob. Am I being a netfet again if I point out that we already discussed that topic and just had a lengthy discussion about how to fool or take out the biomonitor?"
She turns to Anna, obviously annoyed. "Can you please pay attention to what we discuss or just shut the fuck up? This is the third time you ask things we just discussed minutes ago. I haven't left school and become shadowrunner just to see that chink chunk again."

[Jack_Spade]

"I firmly disagree, as fancy-talk says, but you're the A. Your wish is my command.

Then let's break the dilemma by using opt C. We get in, take down itsy-bitsy, snatch his deck, I log in - and then we go to the site and do what bad guys do.
C'est bon?"

"That would be a solution. How are you planning to get his login info so you can assume his persona?" replied Schmitt.

[SquirrelDude]

All of these people dropping out of academies to rob banks. K would kill me for not slapping sense into them if he knew

"bnc, the reason Schmidt was against going after the spider isn't because it would be hard, it's because it would be mucho risky and really screws up our timing. While we could certainly spoof the spider for a little bit, the moment we take out the spider we have to go rob the bank to avoid his absence setting off an increase in badges at the bank.

"We've already committed to moving on the bank during hours of low flow, so most likely in the dark hours of the morning. AKA, the same time the dog lover you and Yael spoke with will be home with her arachnid boyfriend. Certainly we could knock her out, or maybe even get the job done quietly and without her waking up, calling KE, and suddenly everything going to hell, but there are a lot of problems we can't expect and don't have the resources to deal with that could arise from it

"I'm not totally against it, but there are some hard details we need to iron out."

[Volker]

"That would be a solution. How are you planning to get his login info so you can assume his persona?" replied Schmitt.

bnc leans back. "I don't.
I plan to wait until he is logged in and just continue using his already active session. Login information is usually demanded at the beginning of a session - not while it's running. As I intend to simulate a realistic copy of his biometric data, even if the commlink has access to his biomonitor and would thus end the session, it should come to the conclusion that Vandemark is still safe and sound.
Should - against all probability - some kind of validification be necessary that'd happen on a local side. Since I can physically grab the commlink, it'd be a nut job to hack it. The host wouldn't have any other means to check the physical identity of the persona represented by a certain device. As long as the commlink thinks it's user is conscious, the persona is online. How should the 'link know who feeds it with input?

How far does Vandemark live from the bank?

What do you mean by "was against going after the spider"? We have to, that's why we collected all the info about his pet dog and the lack of magical security. Only thing I want to change is that I take the still active commlink with me before I leave. And maybe manipulate the location service."

[SquirrelDude]

"I meant that he had proposed sending a spirit to neutralize the spider as that plan poses the lowest threat to the rest of the team

[ Spoiler ]

Rando fluff question

bnc's point about the commlink not knowing who protects it is interesting. How is it that I can buy a safety system for my gun that will cause it to electrocute anyone that isn't me if they attempt to fire it, but commlinks can work for anyone?

[Volker]

"So why then did we try and figure out the codeword for the dog?"

[ Spoiler ]

I'd assume that there are such systems for commlinks, too, but it's less common to use them. bnc even pointed out that there might be such a system, but with a direct connection it would be a "nut job" to circumvent it.
Also, I'd think that if you kill someone who has their gun in use and prevent any sensoric data to reach the gun, it's bound to continue working.

[Gilga]

Anna kept her mouth shut and went to the coffee machine to get herself another cup.

[Jack_Spade]

[ Spoiler ]

Warning: Boring rules stuff ahead.


We are once again at one of the most frustrating parts of the SR5 rules: How is a Persona created and what prevents anyone from just snatching a running commlink to access all data within.

As far as I gathered from the forums (when they were still accessible and at least somewhat reliable (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) ) the lowest common denominator was, that a persona can't really be copied, because it is created through interactions with the real person.
The rules are of course silent on the issue.

What we know is: As long as the spider doesn't jack out, his persona runs on his deck (doesn't matter if he is unconscious - that is even an explicit rule, since your persona can still be attacked even if you are unresponsive). You can only ever run one persona on a given device. That's a rule too. Also, you only can have your persona active on one device at any given time. To change a persona on a device a reboot is necessary.
So logging in as someone else is pretty much out of the question.

Your proposed solution is to use the manual controls on the deck itself while the unconscious user still has his persona running on his deck.

The question is, if you can use the physical controls of the deck while the real user is in VR. It is not clear if that's possible at all.
After all, while you are in VR you don't want anything accidentally hitting a button. So, I'd assume VR overrides manual controls like they do with rigging.

From a rules perspective, the only way I know would be for the Spider to voluntarily switch to AR (it's explicitly mentioned that only the owner of a device can perform that switch).

So it's less a question of hacking and more one of timing and social engineering to do this:
You need to be in his flat
You need to get him somehow to voluntarily switch interface
You need to knock him out before he can take any action to warn or attack you
You need to knock him out so his device switches to AR
You need to have his bio-monitor under control
You need to take physical possession of his deck and be careful not to reboot it.

[Volker]

[ Spoiler ]

sorry, fc. I moved that post to the OoC section.

[SquirrelDude]

[ Spoiler ]

Warning: Boring rules stuff ahead.


We are once again at one of the most frustrating parts of the SR5 rules: How is a Persona created and what prevents anyone from just snatching a running commlink to access all data within.

As far as I gathered from the forums (when they were still accessible and at least somewhat reliable (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) ) the lowest common denominator was, that a persona can't really be copied, because it is created through interactions with the real person.
The rules are of course silent on the issue.

What we know is: As long as the spider doesn't jack out, his persona runs on his deck (doesn't matter if he is unconscious - that is even an explicit rule, since your persona can still be attacked even if you are unresponsive). You can only ever run one persona on a given device. That's a rule too. Also, you only can have your persona active on one device at any given time. To change a persona on a device a reboot is necessary.
So logging in as someone else is pretty much out of the question.

Your proposed solution is to use the manual controls on the deck itself while the unconscious user still has his persona running on his deck.

The question is, if you can use the physical controls of the deck while the real user is in VR. It is not clear if that's possible at all.
After all, while you are in VR you don't want anything accidentally hitting a button. So, I'd assume VR overrides manual controls like they do with rigging.

From a rules perspective, the only way I know would be for the Spider to voluntarily switch to AR (it's explicitly mentioned that only the owner of a device can perform that switch).

So it's less a question of hacking and more one of timing and social engineering to do this:
You need to be in his flat
You need to get him somehow to voluntarily switch interface
You need to knock him out before he can take any action to warn or attack you
You need to have his bio-monitor under control
You need to take physical possession of his deck and be careful not to reboot it.

[ Spoiler ]

Thanks Jack

[ Spoiler ]

I'd assume that there are such systems for commlinks, too, but it's less common to use them. bnc even pointed out that there might be such a system, but with a direct connection it would be a "nut job" to circumvent it.
Also, I'd think that if you kill someone who has their gun in use and prevent any sensoric data to reach the gun, it's bound to continue working.

[ Spoiler ]

To answer this. Per the rules, the sensor is typically in the butt of the stock or the grip of the firearm so it seems to be something that checks each time the gun is handled rather than a continuing status check

[Gilga]

[ Spoiler ]

Just a rule suggestion, there is a 'control device' action, which seems kind of suitable to 'puppet' the spider into doing what we need when he is unconscious but logged in.
It means that each action requires a roll and so forth but I think it is a reasonable solution if this is what we are going for.

[Jack_Spade]

[ Spoiler ]

Control Device can't be used on a persona
The only thing that can do that is a technomancer with puppeteer

[SquirrelDude]

[ Spoiler ]

We've sorted it out in OOC

So we have two options:
1. Have bnc on site, and rely far less on stealth and more on execution of the gas bomb and quickly eliminating security. Rely on summon to deal with Spider.
2. Go ahead and move forward with putting bnc in control of the Spider's deck, hoping it in the host that controls the bank. Use that to freely edit the cameras. May make it easier to go undetected in short and longer term.

Slobber kneaded his forehead while considering the options, and then spoke, "Hrm, I'm not sure I like the risk, but I don't really know how much we'd be gaining. I'm not the only voice here, though.

"Anna, bnc, boys, which plan would you prefer to plan for and execute?"

[Volker]

"Let's discuss the rest of the plan first. If we figure out we need the cams urgently, we can consider infiltrating the session. If we come to the conclusion we don't need 'em, but I'm needed somewhere else, I go in myself."

[Gilga]

Anna gulped her tea and seemed embarrassed "For what its worth, I am not comfortable with sending a spirit to harm a person that is no danger to me. ". She looked down and said "I'd much rather we find a less violent solution, perhaps drugs to take him out temporarily.
Pausing for a moment she added "There is also the thing about visibility - 'cooperate person murdered by spirits' may be something difficult to shake... not too many people in the city can do it and some people can narrow it down further by observing the spirit and estimate the tradition of the conjurer."

[SquirrelDude]

"I'm in agreement about not killing him. Do we have any drones that could sneak into a home and shoot some gel or stick-n-shock into the man?"

Slobber mused for a bit.

"It's a shame we can't mess with the spider until later, he might be a good person to spoof a message from regarding or elven tin man's future as a blood sacrifice.