[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Indeed... Well said, Titan...

Though I do not have a lot of issues (there are a few) with the Matrix itself, Wrapper is definitely weird, when it comes to its usage. In all my years of playing SR5, I have never used it. It is so much easier to just not have wireless active/use a throwback device. At that point, you have no need of it at all.

As for Customization/creation rules for Cyberdecks... I do miss such things, on occasion. But in the grand scheme of things, I think they are more trouble than they are worth.

[KCKitsune]

As for Customization/creation rules for Cyberdecks... I do miss such things, on occasion. But in the grand scheme of things, I think they are more trouble than they are worth.

The only reason I brought it up is because cyberdecks are so damn expensive and the really good ones are really hard to get. I can see a decker and or rigger making their own decks so they can can keep the price to something they can afford and to not have a big honking neon sign saying "Hey guys! I have an illegal cyberdeck here! It's serial number/MAC address is..."

[Titan]

The only reason I brought it up is because cyberdecks are so damn expensive and the really good ones are really hard to get. I can see a decker and or rigger making their own decks so they can can keep the price to something they can afford and to not have a big honking neon sign saying "Hey guys! I have an illegal cyberdeck here! It's serial number/MAC address is..."

Pphhheeeeewwwwww.... That is a whole 'nother can of worms.

The price of cyberdecks is an attempt at game balance (between archetypes). Like I said in the Power Points thread CGL did a shit job of it... But there it is.
That is also the reason they should have given for the SR5 ruling of "you cannot copy / clone programs," rather then the crap "you can't break the copy protection."
Add to that that I would have to keep the cost to make close to the price of a comparable deck in the book, or else we have a situation that makes it possible for a character to make more than a single run (probably much more) per each item made when they sell it. Potentially throwing the whole economy out of wack.
Just as a bad analogy to compare it to: Imagine what would happen if, given several game hours, the Street Sammy could come out of the back room with 2 Barret Model 122's (pg 40 Run & Gun) when they went in with only 1? Some might be more comfortable with ammo, so how about if same Sammy could turn 10 rounds of APDS into 1000 with just a couple of hours of game time?

That is a tightrope I don't feel like walking any time soon...

[KCKitsune]

Pphhheeeeewwwwww.... That is a whole 'nother can of worms.

Sorry to bring that up, but the price point of decks bugs the drek out of me.

That is a tightrope I don't feel like walking any time soon...

Understood.

With that said, how about making commlinks being able to accept (Device rating / 2; round down) number of modifications. The first mod follows the rules in Data Trails, the second one requires 6 packs worth of parts and the third one requires 12 packs worth of parts. Add on to this the ability to add in a second commlink dongle.

Also I would allow a hacker to make a "supersized" program carrier that could carry up to three programs. This would cost 12 packs worth of parts and would take a week's worth of time.


Where I'm going with this is this: The above would allow a down on his luck hacker (or one who wants a bit more "stealth")** to mod a commlink with two commlink dongles (Attack and Stealth), and the ability to run 3 cyberdeck programs. He would have to find (or most likely steal the respective dongles), but he could make himself a ghetto deck.



** == By "stealth" I mean the ability to have the legality of a commlink, but with the capabilities of a mid range deck (depends on the dongles you manage to buy or steal). The Attack and Stealth dongles can be turned off so when Lone Star scans you he only sees the commlink and not a deck.

[Titan]

I get where you are coming from, and understand your points. I tend to share them.

Here is the problem though: CGL has already learned they made Commlinks "too good" when compared to Cyberdecks, and you are trying to make them better.

Remember, I get where you are coming from.

But your suggestion puts a "ghetto deck" just about at the level of a max starting deckers deck (without Restricted Gear quality).

I don't feel like doing the math right now, but I suspect it will be comparable in price.

This is primarily because you are missing one point. Namely "a Cyberdeck doesn't need Attack and Sleaze." Sure, it is nice to have... But a well built Decker should be "geared up," so to speak, for one or the other.

And if it happens to be Sleaze, you can get an acceptable "ghetto deck" for 401 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) although, admittedly through pretty cheesy rules. (2 parts packs to add Persona capability to a Stealth Tag to give you a 0 / 3 / 3 / 3 device.) You can't run cyberprograms on it, but most of them simply add 2 dice to one action anyway.

Since the attributes are only limits in most cases (Firewall is an exception), that device should do pretty well. (Especially when you consider the potential cheese-factor of a Rigger Jumped Into the device raising the limits by the Control Rig rating - to effectively make the device 2 / 5 / 5 / 5 with a Control Rig of 2 - with the Firewall only being 3 for any rolls.**)

** I expect this to get Errata'd at some point.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The only reason I brought it up is because cyberdecks are so damn expensive and the really good ones are really hard to get. I can see a decker and or rigger making their own decks so they can can keep the price to something they can afford and to not have a big honking neon sign saying "Hey guys! I have an illegal cyberdeck here! It's serial number/MAC address is..."

Agreed... I would prefer that the cost of Cyberdecks be cut down to just 10-20% of listed price, but that is just me.

[KCKitsune]

I get where you are coming from, and understand your points. I tend to share them.

Here is the problem though: CGL has already learned they made Commlinks "too good" when compared to Cyberdecks, and you are trying to make them better.

Remember, I get where you are coming from.

But your suggestion puts a "ghetto deck" just about at the level of a max starting deckers deck (without Restricted Gear quality).

I don't feel like doing the math right now, but I suspect it will be comparable in price.

This is primarily because you are missing one point. Namely "a Cyberdeck doesn't need Attack and Sleaze." Sure, it is nice to have... But a well built Decker should be "geared up," so to speak, for one or the other.

And if it happens to be Sleaze, you can get an acceptable "ghetto deck" for 401 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) although, admittedly through pretty cheesy rules. (2 parts packs to add Persona capability to a Stealth Tag to give you a 0 / 3 / 3 / 3 device.) You can't run cyberprograms on it, but most of them simply add 2 dice to one action anyway.

Since the attributes are only limits in most cases (Firewall is an exception), that device should do pretty well. (Especially when you consider the potential cheese-factor of a Rigger Jumped Into the device raising the limits by the Control Rig rating - to effectively make the device 2 / 5 / 5 / 5 with a Control Rig of 2 - with the Firewall only being 3 for any rolls.**)

** I expect this to get Errata'd at some point.

Right now as the rules as written, you can get a 0/6/6/6 or a 6/0/6/6 device rating 6 (which is the same as a Fairlight Excalibur) with the ability to run at least one cyber program (two if you put virtual machine in the program carrier) at character creation and NOT need Restricted Gear. Best point... that "beast" will only cost you 113,980 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . That's only 3730 more expensive than a Azteca 200 and with the dongle turned off (or not inserted into the commlink) then the device is 100% legal!

[Titan]

Right now as the rules as written, you can get a 0/6/6/6 or a 6/0/6/6 device rating 6 (which is the same as a Fairlight Excalibur) with the ability to run at least one cyber program (two if you put virtual machine in the program carrier) at character creation and NOT need Restricted Gear. Best point... that "beast" will only cost you 113,980 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . That's only 3730 more expensive than a Azteca 200 and with the dongle turned off (or not inserted into the commlink) then the device is 100% legal!

I see you are familiar with one of the reasons (perhaps the primary reason) the authors of Shadowrun 5e are pulling back the usefulness of Commlinks, and why if program carriers will still be installable on Commlinks, Virtual Machine will not be.

And you somehow think Commlinks should be better in SR5? Seriously?

[KCKitsune]

I see you are familiar with one of the reasons (perhaps the primary reason) the authors of Shadowrun 5e are pulling back the usefulness of Commlinks, and why if program carriers will still be installable on Commlinks, Virtual Machine will not be.

And you somehow think Commlinks should be better in SR5? Seriously?

If the developers wanted cyberdecks to be useful, then they should have made them have some unique feature that commlinks don't have. They should have just not allowed the Attack and Stealth dongles. With those added in, they drekked their own bed. Now they have to sleep in the slimy, stinking mess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As for Program Carriers... you said it yourself, a hacker doesn't NEED cyberprograms. They're just useful buffs. If Program Carrier is still allowed they can still have the one program that will make all the difference.

As for Virtual Machine: I don't see how they can disallow it. If they allow program carriers to be installed on a commlink (or any device really) and Virtual Machine is a cyberdeck program (and a legal one at that). How would someone go about putting the two programs into the Virtual Machine... universal data port.

[Titan]

Wow...

Now you are arguing against your own points....

If you ever wondered why I accused you of trying to pick a fight... This is a prime example.

[JanessaVR]

Agreed... I would prefer that the cost of Cyberdecks be cut down to just 10-20% of listed price, but that is just me.

Tell me about it. When I looked over the SR5 cyberdeck prices, my first thought was "Ok, knock a zero off all these prices and they start sounding a bit more reasonable."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tell me about it. When I looked over the SR5 cyberdeck prices, my first thought was "Ok, knock a zero off all these prices and they start sounding a bit more reasonable."

Indeed... and while you are at it, cut back the Cyberware/Bioware prices as well...
They got crazy...

[Titan]

Okay, I think is about time the SR4 players take the discussion of collapsing the SR5 in-game economy out of the thread made to flesh out my vision for the SR5 Matrix.

Seriously people, the exit is that way. -----------------> (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Before you ask:
I know you are SR4 players because you clearly come from a system where (a version of) Karma Buy is the standard generation method.
And to prove I know you are discussing collapsing the economy, I challenge each of you to make half a dozen SR5 characters using the (standard) Priority system with all of your suggestions. Divide Deck prices by ten, as well as cyber / bio ware, or whatever you find fair. Then make sure to have a character on each Resources Priority with the extra one being a second Resources Priority A character. And just for Janessa, one of the Priority A Resources characters can't be Awakened.
Then start your own thread to tell me what you learned.

[KCKitsune]

Okay, I think is about time the SR4 players take the discussion of collapsing the SR5 in-game economy out of the thread made to flesh out my vision for the SR5 Matrix.

Seriously people, the exit is that way. -----------------> (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Before you ask:
I know you are SR4 players because you clearly come from a system where (a version of) Karma Buy is the standard generation method.
And to prove I know you are discussing collapsing the economy, I challenge each of you to make half a dozen SR5 characters using the (standard) Priority system with all of your suggestions. Divide Deck prices by ten, as well as cyber / bio ware, or whatever you find fair. Then make sure to have a character on each Resources Priority with the extra one being a second Resources Priority A character. And just for Janessa, one of the Priority A Resources characters can't be Awakened.
Then start your own thread to tell me what you learned.

Actually that's why I changed my mind about custom built decks. I'm just trying to bring SOME sanity to deckers, and this is somewhat tied to your attempt to make the Matrix sane.

I mean seriously, take away a Rigger's Proteus Poseidon RCC and he can get a CompuForce Taskmaster and NOT suffer a complete collapse of his ability to be a rigger. Take away a Sammies best guns (as the smart sammie will have wireless yanked from his cyberware) and in a game session he can have enough firepower that he's back in the game. Take away a Mage's power focus and yeah, he'll be hurt, but he can still sling spells and summon spirits. Take away a Decker's deck (i.e. he gets into a BAD Matrix fight and his deck gets bricked) and he's SCREWED!

I'm just trying to make it so that a Decker is not crippled if a bad roll of the dice happens.

[Titan]

Oh for fucks sake. Since you people have no God damn respect...

Actually that's why I changed my mind about custom built decks. I'm just trying to bring SOME sanity to deckers, and this is somewhat tied to your attempt to make the Matrix sane.

I get it. I understand. I don't disagree with you.

But here are the things you are refusing to consider:

1) You can't make the Archetype irrelevant.
The easier (read: cheaper) you make it for a "down on her/his luck Decker to get back in the game," the easier (read: cheaper) you make it for any other Archetype to become the Decker.
Is this a completely shitty answer? Yes. It doesn't change the fact the the Decker is an intrinsic Archetype to Shadowrun that can't be pissed away for a handful of nuyen.

2) There is no "simple" fix.
Even if you can somehow find the mystical answer to making the deck prices "sane" without making Tom the Combat Mage capable of taking over the Deckers' role after a few runs, you still have to take into account the entire game economy.
As I hinted at in my last post, adjusting the deck costs may require going all the way back (figuratively speaking) to Character Generation to adjust the Priority tables.
And then that has to be considered against the effect it has on the entire rest of the game.

In short, you want to make SR5 Deckers, just like SR4 Deckers, that people complained about and got us SR5 Deckers, that you want to make SR4 Deckers....

[KCKitsune]

Oh for fucks sake. Since you people have no God damn respect...




I get it. I understand. I don't disagree with you.

But here are the things you are refusing to consider:

1) You can't make the Archetype irrelevant.
The easier (read: cheaper) you make it for a "down on her/his luck Decker to get back in the game," the easier (read: cheaper) you make it for any other Archetype to become the Decker.
Is this a completely shitty answer? Yes. It doesn't change the fact the the Decker is an intrinsic Archetype to Shadowrun that can't be pissed away for a handful of nuyen.

And yet, by not making it so a decker can get back into the game if they lose their deck YOU are not acknowledging the very real possibility that one bad roll of the dice can make the hacker irrelevant. If your street sammie gets shot up and is going to die he can burn a point of Edge and survive. The decker can't do that to save his deck... at least I don't think so. If I'm wrong I apologize.

2) There is no "simple" fix.
Even if you can somehow find the mystical answer to making the deck prices "sane" without making Tom the Combat Mage capable of taking over the Deckers' role after a few runs, you still have to take into account the entire game economy.
As I hinted at in my last post, adjusting the deck costs may require going all the way back (figuratively speaking) to Character Generation to adjust the Priority tables.
And then that has to be considered against the effect it has on the entire rest of the game.

In short, you want to make SR5 Deckers, just like SR4 Deckers, that people complained about and got us SR5 Deckers, that you want to make SR4 Deckers....

Maybe the best way to fix this is to make decks partially cyberware and partially the physical keyboard. The keyboard is the "buffer" to protect the Decker's wetware and cyberware from Black IC. This way you protect the Hacker archetype without making it so the Decker is knocked out of the game on a bad night at the table, and make it so every Tom, Dick, and Harry can't be Hackers.

I mean if you want to look at the archetypal Decker, they ALWAYS spout cyber... and a lot of it. I remember the Neuromancer game, one of the first things you do is sell body parts to get more cyber. Right now, cranial cyberdecks are WAY too cheap Essence wise. I mean 0.5 Essence for the port to put in a cyberdeck... ridiculous. A Control Rig starts off at 1 Essence and Wired Reflexes also start off at 2 Essence.

Maybe you can go back to SR2 cranial cyberdecks. You had to buy every single component and they had to be balanced with one another. Now that might be a little too much to do in one sitting.

------------------------------------------------------

EDIT

Titan, I understand you're getting frustrated with bozos like me pissing all over the bulldrek SR Economy, but to fix the Matrix, you have to acknowledge that the price for cyberdecks makes it that a Decker can ever upgrade his gear, and if he loses his deck he might as well remake his character. A Street Sam (with internal Router) can just have the wireless ripped out of his wired reflexes (or just with wireless OFF) and a Decker can't do jack about his gear. A "typical" mage gives no fraks about Deckers as they MIGHT have a commlink, but that crap would be turned off during a run.

[Titan]

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[Titan]

Runs against a Host

With this proposed system, it might seem impossible to make a run against a host. And to be sure, it is more difficult. But fortunately, corps don’t work like individuals do.

Ideally, runners will do the necessary legwork (GMs discretion) to figure out the most vulnerable time to run against a host. For low rating hosts, like public libraries, this can be just about any time. For more secure hosts it will require timing it when the Spider takes their routine coffee break, or such.

If that is unsuccessful, or impractical, the runner has to rely on luck. The GM should make a secret Edge roll for the runner.

A Critical Glitch indicates the runner is spotted the moment they attempt to breech the Hosts’ defenses.
Otherwise, the runner has a number of Combat Turns equal to the Hits on the Edge roll + 1, unmonitored.
A Glitch reduces the number of Turns by one.

Return to the Table of Contents

[KCKitsune]

Runs against a Host

With this proposed system, it might seem impossible to make a run against a host. And to be sure, it is more difficult. But fortunately, corps don’t work like individuals do.

Ideally, runners will do the necessary legwork (GMs discretion) to figure out the most vulnerable time to run against a host. For low rating hosts, like public libraries, this can be just about any time. For more secure hosts it will require timing it when the Spider takes their routine coffee break, or such.

If that is unsuccessful, or impractical, the runner has to rely on luck. The GM should make a secret Edge roll for the runner.

A Critical Glitch indicates the runner is spotted the moment they attempt to breech the Hosts’ defenses.
Otherwise, the runner has a number of Combat Turns equal to the Hits on the Edge roll + 1, unmonitored.
A Glitch reduces the number of Turns by one.

Return to the Table of Contents

Maybe part of the legwork is to try to get a temporary passcode. If the legwork is successful the hacker can just walk up to the front door and get in. Once the hacker is inside, then he can try to use his "l33t skillz" to get himself better access. Risky, but not as risky as trying it from the outside.

A "Hack on the Fly" might be the hacker trying to create his own passcode to get into the server. That would justify a decker having a Sleaze rating on his deck. A heck of lot more risky, but if you don't have the time or opportunity to get a passcode any other way.