Merging Spellcasting and Summoning, Is there any real reason these two are separate things? Options

[Bodak]

I'd envision Summon [X Type] Spirit, Bind Spirit and Banish Spirit as part of a new category of spells - Summoning.

As Spirits get Sorcery, they would be able to "Summon" each other (without an arbitrary "except for this Category!" ruling)

we just change the rule from "spirits don't have access to the Conjuring Skill Group" to "spirits don't have access to the Summoning Spell Category."

Then there is the problem of which class of spells they would be? A whole new category?

What about by the category they can provide sorcery. So, Summon Fire Spirit would be Combat unless your fire spirits provide aid to manipulation.

This sounds sound until you get to the arbitrary "except for this Category!" ruling. If there's no Summoning category, then prohibiting your combat Spirits from accessing Combat spells presents a conundrum.

Except for what category?

It's all there.

JanessaVR@
Typically spells work only on the plane where they are cast. Allowing a spell cast on the physical plane to pluck a being from a metaplane and plonk it into the astral plane for it to manifest on the physical plane demolishes that. In which case, astrally projecting magicians / spirits might as well be able to cast from the astral plane spells that arrive on the physical plane. For that matter, a spirit on its home metaplane might be sufficiently narked at humans going on metaplanar quests there that it designs a spell to summon people from the material plane for it to entomb at the citadel until their buddies succeed in a quest to rescue them and bring them out of a coma. Spells crossing planes is a can of worms.

How is Invoking a Great Form spirit going to work? Maybe a character needs the skill Sorcery, the specialisation Summoning, and the concentration Invoking. Maybe you'd have a separate spell Summon Great Form which the character can only learn if they have Invoking and which supplants Summon Spirit and has double the drain. Or maybe a "buff" spell, "Grow into Great Form" which has to be cast on a present spirit but which can't be dispelled. Or maybe Banishing is just an application of Dispelling, and you can Dispel/Banish a Great Form down to a regular spirit and Dispel/Banish a regular spirit to dismiss it.

[JanessaVR]

@Bodak:

That's just further highlighting the issue I'm wrestling with here. Whether Spellcasting or Summoning, they're both fundamentally magic, and the rules for magic should be consistent in a game system.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But that is the point... Summoning and Spellcasting are NOT THE SAME TYPE OF MAGIC. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
They are consistent within their use... Spellcasting functions in one way... SUmmoning functions in a completely different way.

[Tanegar]

You summon up an Earth Elemental, and it can either, say, weed your garden, but can’t fight for you, or vice-versa.

Where does it say this? My understanding has always been that spirits can only Aid Sorcery with their associated spell category, not that their category association restricts the kind of nonmagical tasks they can perform.

[JanessaVR]

But that is the point... Summoning and Spellcasting are NOT THE SAME TYPE OF MAGIC. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
They are consistent within their use... Spellcasting functions in one way... Summoning functions in a completely different way.

All magic in Shadowrun is a manipulation of a single source of energy - mana. If there was Mana A that powered Spellcasting, and an entirely separate Mana B that powered Summoning, you would have a point. However, fundamentally, it's all coming from the same source, hence my call for consistent mechanics. This may end up tabled for a while, as it looks like I'm going to have to embark on at least a partial re-working of the magic system, something that won't be quick.

[JanessaVR]

Where does it say this? My understanding has always been that spirits can only Aid Sorcery with their associated spell category, not that their category association restricts the kind of nonmagical tasks they can perform.

SR4A, p. 180: "A tradition associates each of its spirit types with a category of magic. These associations serve to color how that tradition views a particular type of spirit. They also limit how a bound spirit of that type may serve a magician of that tradition." At least, this is how we've interpreted what the rulebook says, which is why we came up with our house rules version, and we ended up liking our approach better anyway.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

All magic in Shadowrun is a manipulation of a single source of energy - mana. If there was Mana A that powered Spellcasting, and an entirely separate Mana B that powered Summoning, you would have a point. However, fundamentally, it's all coming from the same source, hence my call for consistent mechanics. This may end up tabled for a while, as it looks like I'm going to have to embark on at least a partial re-working of the magic system, something that won't be quick.

But that is strictly your interpreation, I think... Conjuration is in no way similar to Sorcery in Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[JanessaVR]

But that is strictly your interpreation, I think... Conjuration is in no way similar to Sorcery in Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

SR4A, p. 176: "THE BASICS - The Awakened world is permeated by mana, the energy of magic. Mana is invisible and intangible. It cannot be detected, measured, or influenced by machines, only by living beings. Mana is sensitive to emotion and responds to the will of the Awakened. It allows magicians to cast spells and summon spirits (the arts of Sorcery and Conjuring, respectively). Mana also makes the powers of adepts and various Awakened creatures possible."

Underlining is mine. Not just my interpretation - those are literally the first words in the chapter on magic in the core rules. It's spelled out quite clearly. There is a single, underlying power source for all magic in Shadowrun.

[Sendaz]

But the skills utilize that power in significantly different ways.

An Ares Laser Pistol and a Shock baton both use the same single underlying power source, in the form of electricity to power the devices, yet I can't use my shock baton to cut a hole in the side of a van.

But we are working on that, wouldn't mind something like a Power Mace out of WH40K, but still having problems with that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Plus what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

If any creature tapping mana can do both sorcery and conjuring, then all those awakened critters with decent amounts of intellect out there should be able to summon and command spirits as well.

And you thought the Blackberry cat was a bastard before? Now imagine it pulling in some spirits to top off that particular catastrophic sundae of doom.

Although maybe that would explain some of the number of spirits in areas where nobody metahuman wise could have been summoning them, but this is treading into tricky territories.

And yes we are aware you already made mention of spirits can't summon other spirits for obvious reasons, but can you justify placing similar restrictions for sentient/high intelligence awakened critters here?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

SR4A, p. 176: "THE BASICS - The Awakened world is permeated by mana, the energy of magic. Mana is invisible and intangible. It cannot be detected, measured, or influenced by machines, only by living beings. Mana is sensitive to emotion and responds to the will of the Awakened. It allows magicians to cast spells and summon spirits (the arts of Sorcery and Conjuring, respectively). Mana also makes the powers of adepts and various Awakened creatures possible."

Underlining is mine. Not just my interpretation - those are literally the first words in the chapter on magic in the core rules. It's spelled out quite clearly. There is a single, underlying power source for all magic in Shadowrun.

Yes, Single Power Source... BUT Completely Different Applications of said power based upon skill used. Sorcery is NOT Summonig... They use that power source in such completely different ways that the skills are not interchangeable... Just like You cannot use Sorcery or Conjuring to Enchant...
You make Magicians far more powerful the less restrictions you place upon them... The restrictions placed upon them are there to aid in maintaining a bit of balance. And yes, I know you do not care for anything but Awakened Characters, but those restrictions do serve a purpose. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[JanessaVR]

As I said, it looks like this will end up in my "To Work On" section of the house rules for now. I regard a consistent, unified magic system as a desirable goal, but it's going to take some time. Thanks for everyone's contributions - I now have some more things to account for that I hadn't remembered to take into consideration.

[Bodak]

I regard a consistent, unified magic system as a desirable goal,

I'm sure we've all had players who have balked at the task of learning yet another system when they've encountered the melee combat / ranged combat / spellcasting / summoning / matrix / vehicles and drones section of the books. All these use a common dice mechanic, but beyond that they're very different beasts. Unifying their underlying infrastructure would (at the cost of detail, perhaps) lower the barrier to entry so that players (and even GMs! I've known some who would only let NPCs rig/deck because the rules were "too complicated" for them to figure through) would respond with recognition instead, "Oh so that's just like how melee combat works, it's just that you use XYZ instead of PQR - I can do that." It's a lot of work, but if done well I think it would improve play.

[Cochise]

Typically spells work only on the plane where they are cast. Allowing a spell cast on the physical plane to pluck a being from a metaplane and plonk it into the astral plane for it to manifest on the physical plane demolishes that.

... and it opens the possibility to "cast" such a summoning spell on the astral plane ... So another "exception" rule is needed.

[Tanegar]

SR4A, p. 180: "A tradition associates each of its spirit types with a category of magic. These associations serve to color how that tradition views a particular type of spirit. They also limit how a bound spirit of that type may serve a magician of that tradition." At least, this is how we've interpreted what the rulebook says, which is why we came up with our house rules version, and we ended up liking our approach better anyway.

Allow me to direct you to p. 186, subheading Spirit Services:

Spirits in physical form can also perform any physical task as a service, as appropriate to their form, of course. A fire elemental can burn through a door, for example, or a mountain spirit can move a great weight, and any spirit might use its powers against an enemy of the summoner.

The only passage I can find limiting a spirit to its spell-category association is on the next page, under Magical Services:

A spirit intended to assist the magician with magic must match the category of magic, according to the magician’s tradition.

A Hermetic magician would need a fire spirit to help with combat spells, but there's no reason an earth spirit can't fight for her.

[Mantis]

Yeah I've never run spirits as not being able to fight for their summoner. They've been able to do that from day 1 in SR1. Taking that passage from SR4A pg 180 in that way would be the most rigid interpretation and would of course be ignoring previous editions as well as the expansion that Tanegar points out on pg 186. It is an interesting interpretation but it isn't one anyone else is using I think.

[JanessaVR]

@Mantis and @Tanegar:

Well, for those of us that didn't play SR1 to SR3 (ok, I sat in on a few SR3 games long ago, but hadn't really read the rules all that much), that's what it sounded like to us, so they should have worded that a bit more clearly. At any rate, we just disregarded the whole concept before we started play in the first place, so it all worked out. We were (and still are) a Call of Cthulhu and Old World of Darkness group before we got into Shadowrun, so if we run across complicated and/or unnecessarily restrictive rules, we just immediately trim them down into something more manageable for us, as we're used to "thinner" rules systems.

[Sengir]

But that is the point... Summoning and Spellcasting are NOT THE SAME TYPE OF MAGIC. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
They are consistent within their use... Spellcasting functions in one way... SUmmoning functions in a completely different way.

That's a bit circular, isn't it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) "The rules say it's different, therefore we can't change the rules to say it's not"


But I must say, I'm not really seeing the use case: Mechanically both things already are the same, roll $SKILL + Magic [Force], target resists with $ATTRIBUTE, note net hits. Really not one of those different subgames but actually already a well-integrated system. What remains as difference is first of all fluff/the way SR magic works, but IMO more importantly it's a question of balance. Spellcasting already covers an extremely wide area (healing, damage, tanking, social boosts, info gathering...), if Summoning also gets rolled into it then why the hell would I take any other skill?

[JanessaVR]

That's a bit circular, isn't it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) "The rules say it's different, therefore we can't change the rules to say it's not"


But I must say, I'm not really seeing the use case: Mechanically both things already are the same, roll $SKILL + Magic [Force], target resists with $ATTRIBUTE, note net hits. Really not one of those different subgames but actually already a well-integrated system. What remains as difference is first of all fluff/the way SR magic works, but IMO more importantly it's a question of balance. Spellcasting already covers an extremely wide area (healing, damage, tanking, social boosts, info gathering...), if Summoning also gets rolled into it then why the hell would I take any other skill?

A) My point is, Spellcasting or Summoning, it's all fundamentally a manipulation of mana, so a single set of rules of what that can and can't do is what I'm looking to create. Right now, Spellcasting and Summoning are basically two totally separate magic systems, as the points brought up in this thread have amply demonstrated.
B) I'm looking into a skill simplification of "magic you can do right now" (Spellcasting, Summoning, Counterspelling, Banishing), "magic you have to do back in your lodge that will take hours to months to pull off" (Ritual Spellcasting, Ritual Summoning, Enchanting/Alchemy), and "general knowledge of magical theory and practice" (Arcana). Personally, I think trimming down / consolidating the number of skills for deckers/riggers/sammies/etc to match this would be a good idea as well.

[Sengir]

A) My point is, Spellcasting or Summoning, it's all fundamentally a manipulation of mana, so a single set of rules of what that can and can't do is what I'm looking to create. Right now, Spellcasting and Summoning are basically two totally separate magic systems, as the points brought up in this thread have amply demonstrated.

The major difference I see is Drain for Summoning being based on the resistance roll instead of being a flat number. Anything else is actually pretty close to casting a spell at the spirit, you roll Skill + Magic [Force], the target resists with two attributes or on attribute twice.

[Bodak]

It might be worthwhile tracking down the issue of White Wolf which introduced the Voodoo tradition:

Heh... back when voodoo first made an appearance in SR it was in a series of articles in White Wolf Magazine, of all places, writing up New Orleans. Zombie animation was a spell back then,

While on the topic of redesigning the mechanics of a Mage, this thread considers ways of streamlining Full/Aspected Hermetic/Shaman/Sorcerer/Conjurer/Elementalist/Shamanist/etc. with or without access to Astral Projection/Perception/etc. and this thread explores appropriate skill(s) for astral combat which is "all fundamentally a manipulation of mana" too. Even if there's a bit of 3rd Ed mechanics in there, it shows some efforts to unify and streamline parts of Magic before.

[JanessaVR]

It might be worthwhile tracking down the issue of White Wolf which introduced the Voodoo tradition:
While on the topic of redesigning the mechanics of a Mage, this thread considers ways of streamlining Full/Aspected Hermetic/Shaman/Sorcerer/Conjurer/Elementalist/Shamanist/etc. with or without access to Astral Projection/Perception/etc. and this thread explores appropriate skill(s) for astral combat which is "all fundamentally a manipulation of mana" too. Even if there's a bit of 3rd Ed mechanics in there, it shows some efforts to unify and streamline parts of Magic before.

Thanks for the references! I'll look into them.

[tisoz]

There was an old, like dawn of the PC age old, 64-bit computer RPG game where one could cast a spell that created various beings I am thinking it was Bard's Tale, maybe?

I was skipping this thread until now thinking it was sort of stupid and only ever going to be a house rule, but upon reading and recalling that old computer game, I can see some possibilities.

Regarding the casting on the astral, put restrictions on the summoning spell like any other spell and whether it may be cast on the astral by making it Mana or Physical based. Like most Physical spells, have its Drain Code be higher.

Regarding the Unbound/Bound, I am sort of leaning toward requiring the magician to sustain the spell. If they quit sustaining, the spirit disappears, just like any sustained spell. If they want it to hang around longer, then they need a sustaining focus, just like a spell you want to keep active. This also helps limit the numbers they can have on hand by incurring focus addiction rules. Great Form spirits still require a metamagic to cast, adjust Drain Code as needed. I think I would make Ally spirits permanent duration so require them to be sustained by the caster only for a length of time commensurate with presently summoning one. The magician pays karma to make it permanent. Each one would require its own spell formula and so the karma costs could be figured as they presently are based on what features one is giving the new Ally spell.

[Mantis]

It might be worthwhile tracking down the issue of White Wolf which introduced the Voodoo tradition:
While on the topic of redesigning the mechanics of a Mage, this thread considers ways of streamlining Full/Aspected Hermetic/Shaman/Sorcerer/Conjurer/Elementalist/Shamanist/etc. with or without access to Astral Projection/Perception/etc. and this thread explores appropriate skill(s) for astral combat which is "all fundamentally a manipulation of mana" too. Even if there's a bit of 3rd Ed mechanics in there, it shows some efforts to unify and streamline parts of Magic before.

Think this was White Wolf issue 31. Had a big write up about New Orleans. I had it once upon a time but it has since been lost in a move. You can get the issues in PDF from DriveThruRPG though.