Power points Options

[Savar]

Base book in one spot has Mystic Adepts paying 5 karma per power point and another area 2 karma.

The official site has issues again. What's the awnser?

I don't remember.

[Elfenlied]

5 Karma.

[Kiirnodel]

It was "quickly" errata'd to 5 karma, there are numerous ways to get it, but one is through the Critical Glitch podcast's website. They may not have updated in a while either, but it still works fine for some of the older documents.
CRITCAL GLITCH HERE

[Savar]

Okay thanks.
Ran across the discrepancy while reading up on Mystic Adepts. As there is no explicit whay for them to get power points after char creation besides initiation.

I would just rule 5 karma.

[Imladir]

There is no way to gain power points after creation other than initiation. Mystic Adepts are broken enough as it is...

[Cabral]

There is no way to gain power points after creation other than initiation. Mystic Adepts are broken enough as it is...

That is silly, they should be allowed to purchase power points up to their magic grade outside of character creation.

[Kiirnodel]

I agree that it is silly that Mystic Adepts can't buy power points after creation. In my experience, that rule just encourages people to try and game the system and find ways to get as many points during creation as possible. I've seen way too many people use Exceptional Attribute to get Magic 7 and then get 35 PP with karma (yes, that costs a total of 49 karma to do). They take 25 points of negatives, no positives and the character suffers for it.

In my games, I rule that purchasing power points after creation works just like qualities, double cost. So I let Mystic Adepts buy additional power points (up to their Magic Rating), it just costs 10 karma each.

[Mantis]

So they took away the option to buy power points as meta magics in 5th ed? Wonderful (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[Tecumseh]

So they took away the option to buy power points as meta magics in 5th ed? Wonderful (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

No, that's not correct. 5th Edition very much lets you select an power point after initiating as an adept/mystic adept.

This discussion is about what happens when a mystic adept increases their Magic rating (say from 6 to 7) after play begins. In 5E, that increase in Magic doesn't automatically provide an additional power point. The question then becomes whether the mystic adept is allowed to purchase that 7th power point (which is not explicitly in the rules) and, if so, how much it should cost.

[Imladir]

That is silly, they should be allowed to purchase power points up to their magic grade outside of character creation.

Why? They have access to spells, so why allow them, in addition to that, to have even more power points? If you want a Power Point, you take a Metamagic for that. Yes, it means you don't take another one, but otherwise what's the point of making a full Mage?

Of course, it only matters if you're concerned with balance. If you don't care...

[Cabral]

Why? They have access to spells, so why allow them, in addition to that, to have even more power points? If you want a Power Point, you take a Metamagic for that. Yes, it means you don't take another one, but otherwise what's the point of making a full Mage?

Of course, it only matters if you're concerned with balance. If you don't care...

Why? You pay karma to get each power point. You take a metamagic for extra power points.

If you restrict it to character creation, you penalize characters who did not max out magic and power points at character creation. That is fundamentally wrong. You should not be able to permanently gimp your character at character creation.

Magicians will have the advantage from astral projection and will need less karma to advance, and if you are using karmagen, need less to create. Requiring less karma for a concept is a big deal among karma heavy character concepts.

[Imladir]

If you restrict it to character creation, you penalize characters who did not max out magic and power points at character creation. That is fundamentally wrong. You should not be able to permanently gimp your character at character creation.

Then restrict it to max six Power Points bought with karma.

Magicians will have the advantage from astral projection and will need less karma to advance, and if you are using karmagen, need less to create. Requiring less karma for a concept is a big deal among karma heavy character concepts.

Astral projection? What use is that? In most cases, you're better off just sending a spirit. Reconnaissance? A spirit. Messages? A watcher or a spirit. Astral Projection is useful in one case only, and that's to go in the Metaplanes. But how many scenarios revolve around that? None, because you can't forget your Mundanes. Picking a full Mage is already not worthy at all as it is, so if in addition to everything already existing you add the possibility to buy Power Points...

Yes, building a Mystic Adept is more difficult than a full Mage. But not only will the Mystic Adept be stronger, it will also scale better as karma accumulates.

[Cabral]

Then restrict it to max six Power Points bought with karma.

Why? That does not make sense. Restrict it just like adepts.

Astral projection? What use is that? In most cases, you're better off just sending a spirit. Reconnaissance? A spirit. Messages? A watcher or a spirit. Astral Projection is useful in one case only, and that's to go in the Metaplanes. But how many scenarios revolve around that? None, because you can't forget your Mundanes. Picking a full Mage is already not worthy at all as it is, so if in addition to everything already existing you add the possibility to buy Power Points...

Yes, building a Mystic Adept is more difficult than a full Mage. But not only will the Mystic Adept be stronger, it will also scale better as karma accumulates.

Full mages are absolutely useful and require less karma (astral/metaplanar projection and free astral perception should not be ignored) resulting in better scaling as karma accumulates. If you are not exploring the physical adept aspects of a mystic adept, why are you not playing a full mage? If you are, you are spending 5-30 karma at character creation on those abilities. That is 5-30 karma that the full mage can spend on other things.

[SpellBinder]

Astral projection? What use is that? In most cases, you're better off just sending a spirit. Reconnaissance? A spirit. Messages? A watcher or a spirit. Astral Projection is useful in one case only, and that's to go in the Metaplanes. But how many scenarios revolve around that? None, because you can't forget your Mundanes. Picking a full Mage is already not worthy at all as it is, so if in addition to everything already existing you add the possibility to buy Power Points...

Yes, building a Mystic Adept is more difficult than a full Mage. But not only will the Mystic Adept be stronger, it will also scale better as karma accumulates.

Watchers aren't technically spirits in SR5, and you can't just whip one up whenever you want to now. You use Ritual Spellcasting instead of Summoning, it takes Force minutes to cast, must be performed in a lodge of at least equal Force or you spend [Force] reagents to create a temporary lodge, and you must spend [Force] reagents to create one. On the plus side, watchers are immune to Banishing, but from what I've seen around here that's typically a rarely used skill.

Also, if you go cheap on watchers or spirits, they're dumb (actually, at Force-2 for their attributes, watchers are really dumb); they may materialize at the most inopportune moments to deliver their message, like when the recipient is in a meeting ("Just to let you know, Mr. Johnson's really an agent for Aztechnology."), tailing someone ("Bob says they're ready to jump the target around the next corner, so be ready."), or in the middle of a gunfight ("What'd that spirit say?"). Unbound spirits may also be done and gone once they deliver a message, depending on how far they have to go; anything beyond the summoner's Magic × 100 in meters counts as a remote service, and once the spirit's done it's gone. Remote services probably also won't include a return message.

Reconnaissance may also be done quite literally by a spirit ("You told me to count how many people were in the area. You didn't ask about who all are Awakened, or how many were trolls. Pixies count as people?"), and again if they're low Force may not know discretion. Watchers may also go as far as they can, and if they run into a ward (maybe literally) they likely will just stop there and do nothing till their timer runs out.

And don't think higher Force spirits are always going to be better. Higher Force means higher Intelligence, and potentially shrewd negotiators ("That'll cost you an extra service if you want me to wait for a response to deliver back to you.") or go for whatever loophole they can find to be done with a service as quickly and easily as possible.

Oh, and Mystic Adepts are 5 karma more expensive than Magicians for karmagen. Means you're paying more for less to be a Mystic Adept than a Magician if you don't invest in any Power Points (10 karma more, actually, if you do pick up Astral Perception and nothing more).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Why? You pay karma to get each power point. You take a metamagic for extra power points.

If you restrict it to character creation, you penalize characters who did not max out magic and power points at character creation. That is fundamentally wrong. You should not be able to permanently gimp your character at character creation.

This I totally disagree with... you are not penalized for not taking the max points...
Many, Many times, the Max points do not even make sense for a character. Concept over Mechanics and all that.

This is one of the reasons that I prefer the 4th Edition take on Mystic Adepts.
You havee to choose which to prioritize... and when you do, you are not gimping your character... you are building to a concept.

A Mystic Adept is not meant to be the uber Spellcaster, nor is it meant to be the ultimate Adept...
The Mystic Adept is supposed to be a blending of the two, but never as powerful as the specialists (Magician/Adept) are in their field.
This is where I think 5th Edition got it wrong.

[Cabral]

This I totally disagree with... you are not penalized for not taking the max points...
Many, Many times, the Max points do not even make sense for a character. Concept over Mechanics and all that.

This is one of the reasons that I prefer the 4th Edition take on Mystic Adepts.
You havee to choose which to prioritize... and when you do, you are not gimping your character... you are building to a concept.

A Mystic Adept is not meant to be the uber Spellcaster, nor is it meant to be the ultimate Adept...
The Mystic Adept is supposed to be a belnding of the two, but never as powerful as the specialists (Magician/Adept) are in their field.
This is where I think 5th Edition got it wrong.

I, uhm, disagree with your disagreement, but agree with the reason? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Not taking max points at chargen, per a common/official interpretation of the rules, closes off the ability to gain additional power points outside of initiation (where you trade a metamagic, like masking) for power points. The fact that you can close off that option is bad game design. Particularly since it can surprise players.

Also, personally, I think anyone who plays a mystic adept as a mage with 1-6 power points is not playing the mystic adept concept and that fifth edition implements mystic adepts in that skewed view.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I, uhm, disagree with your disagreement, but agree with the reason? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Not taking max points at chargen, per a common/official interpretation of the rules, closes off the ability to gain additional power points outside of initiation (where you trade a metamagic, like masking) for power points. The fact that you can close off that option is bad game design. Particularly since it can surprise players.

Also, personally, I think anyone who plays a mystic adept as a mage with 1-6 power points is not playing the mystic adept concept and that fifth edition implements mystic adepts in that skewed view.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Ummm... Well said? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In my view...not taking max Adept Power Points as a Mystic Adept is perfectly viable choice (in fact, it is almost necessary to not max PP due to the extreme cost of the choice to max out Power Points, if you want any other potential chargen options)... Yes, you have to initiate to gain additional Power Points, instead of Metamagics... but I have no actual issues with thaqt choice. In fact, it is part and parcel of playing a Mystic Adept in that you have to make the choice to either advance your Magician abilities or Adept abilities. you cannot advance them simultaneously... which gives them a slower advancement in their chosen path, which is the wholw point of the Mystic Adept, in my opinion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

4th Anniversayr forced the Mystic Adept to parse his abilities so that they were inherently split... I agree that 5th Edition implemented their Mystic Adept design pretty poorly/badly, as that is really not an issue much any more. You can be both a super Magician and an Adept, and all you lose is Astral Projection and the option for qualities you could have had had you not chosen to max out your PP allotment (which is not all that onerous when you have max magic/adept abilities). In my personal opinion... I prefer to see a Mystic Adept with a Magic of 3-4 and Power Points allotment of about 3-4, which leaves you with plenty of other options to boost the MYSTIC ADEPT concept, rather than to see Magic 6/7 with PP 6/7 (you get your cake and you get to eat it too, given some Karma, since know you have full magician abilities sans projection, and full adept abilities).

But that is just me, I guess... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kiirnodel]

The only problem I have with the idea that taking less than the full 6 magic should be a viable option and that the trade off is balanced is that given enough karma, the mystic adept that maxes out PP but then can't afford qualities at creation is able to just save up and buy the qualities later. While a mystic adept that makes a more balanced character can't buy the Power Points later. There are some things I can accept as a "must choose this at creation" limitation, but the number of base Adept Power Points the MA has access to doesn't seem like it should be one of them.

Personally, I think Mystic Adepts should have something else built into them for 5E that makes them limited in some way for the Magician side of things. Just like they need to buy up the Adept Powers, they should have something they need to pay for on the Magician side too... just not sure what that should be.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I guess it has never bothered me that the mechanic to recover those unchosen Power Points in play already has a mechanic. It is called Initiation.
You can still have up to your Magic Rating+ in Power Points, but you have to delve into the mysteries of magic to unlock them...
And yes, it does get expensive. Such is the cost of unlimited advancement.

[Kiirnodel]

Initiation for Power Points isn't a "mechanic to recover those unchosen Power Points" it is a mechanic to gain additional PP, which is available to everyone. Whether a Mystic Adept chooses to get 6 PP at creation or only 3, they can still initiate and gain PP through initiation, so that doesn't make the two even, it still leaves the Adept that chose to take less initially with less Power Points.

Two Mystic Adepts, one who took 6 PP (call this one A), and one who took 3 PP, plus 15 karma of qualities instead (B). Give both of these Mystic Adepts 30 karma, Mystic Adept A spends that 30 karma on picking up a 15 point quality, while B starts to initiate to get more PP. At 30 karma, they can only afford two initiations (29 karma), giving them only 2 out of 3 PP that they gave up for the 15 points of qualities.

If we up that karma enough to give Mystic Adept B enough to initiate a third time (to get that last Power Point (+18 more karma), Mystic Adept A then has enough to initiate also, putting them ahead still.

Plus, why is Mystic Adept A able to get 6 PP without delving into the mysteries of magic (initiating), but Mystic Adept B has to after only 3 PP? Why does picking up a few qualities limit the character's natural ability to reach the potential for adept powers?

[KCKitsune]

Plus, why is Mystic Adept A able to get 6 PP without delving into the mysteries of magic (initiating), but Mystic Adept B has to after only 3 PP? Why does picking up a few qualities limit the character's natural ability to reach the potential for adept powers?

The way to look at that is Mystic Adept A was just more skilled/powerful than Adept B. Adept B can "narrow" the gap by initiating. This is offset by the qualities that B had to make him better at doing things other magic.

[Kiirnodel]

The way to look at that is Mystic Adept A was just more skilled/powerful than Adept B. Adept B can "narrow" the gap by initiating. This is offset by the qualities that B had to make him better at doing things other magic.

But Adept A doesn't need to initiate to gain those same qualities, why must Adept B initiate to gain the same adept powers.

Nothing about the setting says that at some arbitrary point mystic adepts reach a plateau in their adept abilities that can only be overcome with initiation. Particularly since that arbitrary point is seemingly set based on "when the MA becomes a PC," a completely 4th wall, OOC standard. Think about it, Street Level, Standard Creation, or Prime Runner, the main distinction is how much "experience" the character has. For Mystic Adepts in the current rules, it also determines how likely they are to have a full allotment of Power Points.

I think all Mystic Adepts should be able to have the same potential, their Magic Rating. They may not have developed all of their Adept Powers, but a Mystic Adept's general "power" is based on that rating, not how many Points they could afford at creation. The whole point of initiation is to increase the magical character's potential, not attempt to reach it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Initiation for Power Points isn't a "mechanic to recover those unchosen Power Points" it is a mechanic to gain additional PP, which is available to everyone. Whether a Mystic Adept chooses to get 6 PP at creation or only 3, they can still initiate and gain PP through initiation, so that doesn't make the two even, it still leaves the Adept that chose to take less initially with less Power Points.

Yes, this is true... Feature, not a Bug. If you did not purchase the full capability of PP to your Magic, then you have not LOST anything... and Initiation gives you the ability to raise yoru PP at a later time...

Two Mystic Adepts, one who took 6 PP (call this one A), and one who took 3 PP, plus 15 karma of qualities instead (B). Give both of these Mystic Adepts 30 karma, Mystic Adept A spends that 30 karma on picking up a 15 point quality, while B starts to initiate to get more PP. At 30 karma, they can only afford two initiations (29 karma), giving them only 2 out of 3 PP that they gave up for the 15 points of qualities.

If we up that karma enough to give Mystic Adept B enough to initiate a third time (to get that last Power Point (+18 more karma), Mystic Adept A then has enough to initiate also, putting them ahead still.

Plus, why is Mystic Adept A able to get 6 PP without delving into the mysteries of magic (initiating), but Mystic Adept B has to after only 3 PP? Why does picking up a few qualities limit the character's natural ability to reach the potential for adept powers?

The answer to your question is that One Mystic had an innate understanding of the power he possessed (6 PP) while the other did not (3 PP). You are not LOSING PP by not taking them... you are choosing a different path. Your natural ability maximum for PP is whatever amount of PP that you purchased. If you bought 3 PP, then your natural Max is 3... if you bought 7 PP, then THAT is your natural max. Save me form the non-choice of always opting for Ultimate Power, as that is both boring and simple. And yes, I would take the Second guy with 6 Magic/3 PP (actually more likely 3-4 Magic/3 PP) over the one with 6 PP as a Mystic Adept every time and twice on game day...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But Adept A doesn't need to initiate to gain those same qualities, why must Adept B initiate to gain the same adept powers.

Nothing about the setting says that at some arbitrary point mystic adepts reach a plateau in their adept abilities that can only be overcome with initiation. Particularly since that arbitrary point is seemingly set based on "when the MA becomes a PC," a completely 4th wall, OOC standard. Think about it, Street Level, Standard Creation, or Prime Runner, the main distinction is how much "experience" the character has. For Mystic Adepts in the current rules, it also determines how likely they are to have a full allotment of Power Points.

I think all Mystic Adepts should be able to have the same potential, their Magic Rating. They may not have developed all of their Adept Powers, but a Mystic Adept's general "power" is based on that rating, not how many Points they could afford at creation. The whole point of initiation is to increase the magical character's potential, not attempt to reach it.

My more immediate question would be why you think that every Mystic Adept should have Maximum Magic and PP at the 4th Wall of Character Creation. That IS NOT THE NORM for the game world.
ALL Awakened have the same potential... the only barrier is time and experience... Some start higher on the potential curve than others do... that is the way of things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

A starting character with a Magic of 1 still has the potential to have a Magic of 6+... they will just take longer to reach that potential than the Awakened prodigy that started with a Magic of 6 (and will require far more resources to reach that potential). I really see no issue with that paradigm... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Kiirnodel]

Yes, this is true... Feature, not a Bug. If you did not purchase the full capability of PP to your Magic, then you have not LOST anything... and Initiation gives you the ability to raise yoru PP at a later time...

Well, that's kind of the point of my analysis. You DO miss out on something, only being able to gain back those PP through initiation means you are forever behind on advancement in comparison. In my example of Adept A and Adept B, they have the exact same stats except for the one choice to take less PPs in exchange for a few qualities (at creation). After only 30 karma, the qualities are now identical, except Adept B still doesn't have as many PPs. They are still 1 point behind. Adept A can buy the qualities that they missed, why can't Adept B buy the Power Points the same way?

The answer to your question is that One Mystic had an innate understanding of the power he possessed (6 PP) while the other did not (3 PP). You are not LOSING PP by not taking them... you are choosing a different path. Your natural ability maximum for PP is whatever amount of PP that you purchased. If you bought 3 PP, then your natural Max is 3... if you bought 7 PP, then THAT is your natural max. Save me form the non-choice of always opting for Ultimate Power, as that is both boring and simple. And yes, I would take the Second guy with 6 Magic/3 PP (actually more likely 3-4 Magic/3 PP) over the one with 6 PP as a Mystic Adept every time and twice on game day...

So you ARE saying that by making that choice during character creation the resulting character has a different natural potential. That directly contradicts yourself...

My more immediate question would be why you think that every Mystic Adept should have Maximum Magic and PP at the 4th Wall of Character Creation. That IS NOT THE NORM for the game world.
ALL Awakened have the same potential... the only barrier is time and experience... Some start higher on the potential curve than others do... that is the way of things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

A starting character with a Magic of 1 still has the potential to have a Magic of 6+... they will just take longer to reach that potential than the Awakened prodigy that started with a Magic of 6 (and will require far more resources to reach that potential). I really see no issue with that paradigm... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

A starting character should still have the same potential as everyone else. I don't think every Mystic Adept should have maximum Magic and PP at creation, that's why I don't think Mystic Adepts should be limited to only purchasing their Power Points during creation. They should be able to reach their potential after creation and still be able to reach the same heights as any other Mystic Adept. Time and experience, just like you say, they should be able to reach those same limits given enough time and experience. BUT, initiation isn't realizing your potential, it is exploring the mysteries of magic to be able to increase that potential.

Learning a new Power Point in place of a Metamagic isn't gaining the Power Points you missed out on before, it is using those deeper mysteries of magic to learn Power Points beyond what you had before. A Mystic Adept with Magic 6 and 6 Power Points is able to initiate and learn an additional Power Point just like a Mystic Adept with Magic 3 and 2 Power Points. Both these characters with a single initiation would have a natural Magic maximum of 7 now, it isn't different just because they had a different magic rating. I just think that a Mystic Adept's natural Power Point maximum (not including those gained by Initiation/Metamagic) should be their Magic Rating, not the arbitrary amount of points they purchased during creation.