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> 8/17/2017 12:32 AM PST: Happy Ghost Dance Day
Xasten
post Aug 17 2017, 03:37 PM
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May we chant his chants and sing his songs as our power grows.

Long live the SAIM!

Edit: Ugh, title gore: Should read 10:32 AM PST. Any mod want to help me out?
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SpellBinder
post Aug 17 2017, 09:09 PM
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And thanks to Daniel Howling Coyote, global mana levels rise faster than normal for the next sixty years at least.

And probably would be 10:32 A.M. PDT, since Standard time doesn't start for at a month and a half yet (based on when the material was first written).
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JanessaVR
post Aug 17 2017, 10:01 PM
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Yes, thanks to all that indiscriminate blood magic, the Horrors nearly managed to invade the Sixth World millennia ahead of schedule. Nice Job Breaking It, "Heroes."
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lokii
post Aug 17 2017, 10:03 PM
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And here too: On reddit my corresponding Sixth World News entry from a very unlucky pundit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments...ligions_on_the/

QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Aug 17 2017, 11:09 PM) *
And thanks to Daniel Howling Coyote, global mana levels rise faster than normal for the next sixty years at least.
I think it might have become murkier recently but originally the world mana level didn't rise faster (at least not because of the Ghost Dance). The Ghost Dance manaspike was a local phenomenon.
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Bodak
post Aug 18 2017, 04:27 AM
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QUOTE ('Futurama')
... all except, where's my jetpack? I thought where we're going, we don't need roads
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SpellBinder
post Aug 18 2017, 12:52 PM
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QUOTE (lokii @ Aug 17 2017, 04:03 PM) *
I think it might have become murkier recently but originally the world mana level didn't rise faster (at least not because of the Ghost Dance). The Ghost Dance manaspike was a local phenomenon.
Not all explosions take place in a matter of seconds. Some take so much longer and/or are so much more widespread that our own perceptions cannot register them until well after the fact. From Forbidden Arcana, page 123:

"The world was not meant to Awaken quite so suddenly. As was observed earlier, blood magic has a particular utility in that it can generate mana spikes in locations. The Great Ghost Dance represents the same principle on a world-shifting level. Such trauma was akin to a shot of stims into a sleeping person. They awaken, disoriented, conscious but raw and confused. So it is with this Awakening. It may be some time, if ever, before the world has its chance to regain its clarity and perspective. Already much of what was seems irretrievably lost."
> Wordsmyth

"You’ve got to wonder if the manasphere has somehow been permanently colored by that. Like, if the whole Awakened world, being jump-started by blood magic, somehow aspected the world to be more conducive to blood magic. Or even just gave us all an unconscious inclination toward violence and pain."
> Ethernaut

"Wait, you’re suggesting that if the Great Ghost Dance hadn’t happened, not only would magic and other Awakened stuff have taken longer to show up, but we’d all be less violent, and the world would be a nicer place? C’mon."
> Jimmy No

"All places, all things in this world, bear the echo of that which touches them. The Dance was a scream to the heavens. Its echo rings still."
> Man-of-Many-Names
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lokii
post Aug 18 2017, 03:52 PM
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Forbidden Arcana is exactly were I suspected murkiness. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Though I would say, the only person suggesting cycle acceleration is Jimmy No in asking for clarification. And of course the way he phrases it doesn't make sense. 2017 was six years into the Sixth World. There are instances of people using magic before the Great Ghost Dance. It didn't cause Daniel Howling Coyote to be able to use magic from "day one".

It's also interesting that Wordsmyth uses the analogy of "shot of stims into a sleeping person" because it reminds me of Ehran's text in Year of the Comet (p.26). Back then Ehran compared the Awakening to the literal awakening of a person. Events like the Goblinization or SURGE ("Awakened stuff" I guess) are like rousing or yawning, just a natural part of the process of awakening, according to what he wrote. Of course it is possible that this is a case of public versus private opinion, but I think there is very little suggestion of the Awakening being irregular before Forbidden Arcana. And let's not forget, this is probably the first Awakening Wordsmyth witnessed.
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Xasten
post Aug 18 2017, 05:19 PM
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I always saw the GGD manaspike as both a local and global phenomenon as the mana spike is still mostly concentrated locally, but that it also diffused itself into the manasphere for a global effect. We've got plenty of canon examples where big players are shocked at how quickly the lesser races are figuring out and performing higher magics. But, in Harlequin's back he still had to travel to the site for the magic he wanted to pull off.

Little of column a little of column b.
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SpellBinder
post Aug 18 2017, 05:37 PM
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Spikes tend to be highest at their center, or deepest, depending on your point of view. Bet Elijah was surprised at how deep that fovae went. Certainly freaked Ehran & Harliquen out when they found out.
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lokii
post Aug 18 2017, 10:19 PM
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QUOTE (Xasten @ Aug 18 2017, 07:19 PM) *
We've got plenty of canon examples where big players are shocked at how quickly the lesser races are figuring out and performing higher magics.
Are there really a lot of examples? I remember two instances: the Ghost Dancers and Aztlan/Aztechnology.

In case of the former they likely got help. (Thais being a candidate.) Of course that was immediately the question for the immortals: 'who taught them' instead of 'how did they figure it out'? And the latter was supported by Oscuro and potentially a corrupted dragon. I don't know that there is an actual example of magical practices showing up early because of a higher mana level. I would also say, Harlequin's Back and later the Dragon Heart trilogy is explicit in that without the local effect of the Ghost Dance mana spike you would have a normal mana level.

Anyway, there was always a tension with the idea of a mana peak 2600 years in future once Earthdawn was introduced as a reference for how magic at that peak level would look like. So if you have insect spirits in Shadowrun and you know they are not supposed to show up for a thousand years inevitably it will feel like cycle acceleration though as far as I can tell a normal cycle was claimed.
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Glyph
post Aug 19 2017, 02:08 AM
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QUOTE (JanessaVR @ Aug 17 2017, 02:01 PM) *
Yes, thanks to all that indiscriminate blood magic, the Horrors nearly managed to invade the Sixth World millennia ahead of schedule. Nice Job Breaking It, "Heroes."


There's also setting off multiple volcanoes in populated areas, and the stream of refugees created by a comparatively small group claiming about half of the land of two large industrialized nations. I like real, actual Native Americans, but the ones in Shadowrun are every bit as monstrous as the megacorps. It was grating to me how early Shadowrun portrayed them as the "good guys".
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Sengir
post Aug 21 2017, 08:39 PM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Aug 19 2017, 04:08 AM) *
and the stream of refugees created by a comparatively small group claiming about half of the land of two large industrialized nations.

Well, Canada mostly lost a bunch of empty countryside (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I know, nothing involving demographics and the NAN makes sense if you think about it too hard...
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lokii
post Aug 21 2017, 08:59 PM
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Well, if you look at a map of US population density, the NAN also got the least densely populated area. After all California, the greater Seattle area, Denver and Salt Lake City are all excluded. In addition they created Anglo reservations.
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Sengir
post Aug 21 2017, 10:24 PM
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QUOTE (lokii @ Aug 21 2017, 10:59 PM) *
Well, if you look at a map of US population density, the NAN also got the least densely populated area.

True, but it's even more extreme on the Canadian side...even if the Algonkian-Manitou Council had not thrown out a single person, they'd be far short of the 5 million supposedly living there.
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binarywraith
post Aug 22 2017, 03:23 AM
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Remember, the SR timeline's world is supposed to be more densely populated than the real world at that time, too.
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SpellBinder
post Aug 22 2017, 05:16 AM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Aug 21 2017, 09:23 PM) *
Remember, the SR timeline's world is supposed to be more densely populated than the real world at that time, too.
And a lot more spread out after the two VITAS plagues wiped out some 35% of the global population.
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lokii
post Aug 22 2017, 02:55 PM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Aug 22 2017, 05:23 AM) *
Remember, the SR timeline's world is supposed to be more densely populated than the real world at that time, too.
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Aug 22 2017, 07:16 AM) *
And a lot more spread out after the two VITAS plagues wiped out some 35% of the global population.
That's mutually exclusive, isn't it? But why would the Shadowrun world of 2017 that has experienced a catastrophic population collapse through the VITAS pandemic be more densely populated? And that was only one out of several cataclysmic events.

QUOTE (Glyph @ Aug 19 2017, 04:08 AM) *
There's also setting off multiple volcanoes in populated areas, and the stream of refugees created by a comparatively small group [..] It was grating to me how early Shadowrun portrayed them as the "good guys".
You have to remember that they came out of concentration camps and the volcanoes were set off to stop a US military operation aimed at exterminating all Native American tribes. The eruption occurred two minutes after the operation had started. Throughout 2017 the NAN forces had tried to prevent but ultimately only delayed preparations for the campaign.
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SpellBinder
post Aug 22 2017, 09:44 PM
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Relocation to cities for better prospects, for one (it's happened in history, so why not again?). It has also been stated in numerous books that there are a lot of ghost towns across N.America. It's also possible that VITAS simply wiped out a lot of little out of the way settlements (like those that barely rate 300 people, where you can watch your dog run away from home for 3 days, etc.) if the quality of medical care wasn't high enough or close enough to begin (like having to go 100km just to have your teeth looked at).

And then there's the NAN takeover. How many Anglos would have moved into the Seattle Metroplex (or Denver, L.A., N.Y.C., etc.) over relocation to a reservation? Now the Seattle Metropolitan area may have about 3.8 million people compared to the roughly 3 million in Seattle 2072, but there's a drop in land area from just over 15,000 square kilometers down to 4,000. That roughly triples the population density.
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lokii
post Aug 23 2017, 08:00 AM
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Well, looking at the world it's the same area less people live there, so population density has dropped. Let's say the USA has lost 10% of its population to VITAS, unless it has afterwards taken in a number greater than that in refugees the country is less densely populated.

If we are talking about the density in urban areas I just don't think that the world of Shadowrun by 2017 has diverged from our world so much, that it overcompensates for the population loss. Rural flight is an ongoing phenomenon for the last 200 years. The Sixth World probably no longer has climate change as a driver but it has awakened nature encroaching on settled land. The trend of urbanisation is the same, only they have lost a quarter of the world population.

Anyway it could well be that VITAS "bottomed out" some of the smaller communities in the US. That just means the countryside they will soon cede to the NAN is even emptier.
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bannockburn
post Aug 23 2017, 12:21 PM
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Reading the last few postings, I have a sudden idea about adventures in midwestern ghost towns. Scavenging gangs roaming through empty streets, Mad Max like plains races and so on.
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lokii
post Aug 23 2017, 09:44 PM
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QUOTE (bannockburn @ Aug 23 2017, 02:21 PM) *
Reading the last few postings, I have a sudden idea about adventures in midwestern ghost towns. Scavenging gangs roaming through empty streets, Mad Max like plains races and so on.
You are a romantic.
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bannockburn
post Aug 24 2017, 06:19 AM
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Don't say it out loud, man! It's supposed to be a secret.
It may also have to do with the fact that I'm re-reading the Dark Tower cycle right now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Sengir
post Aug 24 2017, 10:50 AM
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QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Aug 22 2017, 11:44 PM) *
It's also possible that VITAS simply wiped out a lot of little out of the way settlements (like those that barely rate 300 people, where you can watch your dog run away from home for 3 days, etc.) if the quality of medical care wasn't high enough or close enough to begin (like having to go 100km just to have your teeth looked at).

Even if they just suffer the average casualty rate, small towns would be hit harder...the less people there are, the more people will not see a perspective there, rinse, repeat. Refugees also tend to move to the larger cities (and I'm not seeing the US/UCAS government being able of running a resettlement programme).


@Banockburn: IIRC YotC had a story set in an abandoned town in the boondocks...
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bannockburn
post Aug 24 2017, 12:48 PM
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That may very well be.
I just had the realization that so far I've mostly used extremes: total urban setting, or remote / exotic locales, often in total wilderness.

I think this idea needs to simmer a bit.

Back to the Ghost Dance now!
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Sengir
post Aug 30 2017, 07:21 PM
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OK, let's talk a bit about the technicalities: What was the Ghost Dance actually? We know that the SAIM did a lot of things, from controlling the weather to volcano erruptions. So was the Ghost Dance actually a series of rituals, one dance for tornados here and then with a bit more booty shaking for precision lightning strikes there? Or did the dance just accumulate power which SAIM shamans could tap into if they needed extra firepower? And how did the SAIM/NAN have the power to blow up volcanoes and control the weather well before the GGD started?


Redondo Peak in New Mexico erupted and buried Los Alamos. Almost immediately afterward, Howling Coyote appeared in a vidcast from a nearby Zuñi reservation and claimed credit for “invoking our Mother Earth to punish the children who forsook Her.”
Within an hour of the broadcast, the Sixth Air Cavalry Battalion took off from Fort Hood, Texas, only to be destroyed by sudden, violent tornadoes. This incident marked the official beginning of the NAN guerrilla war.
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