[Theorycraft Discussion] SR5 Economy, How should we begin to tame this beast? Options

[KCKitsune]

This is also my usual trick in setting up a lifestyle - Middle on the outside, High on the inside, and with the Quiet Neighborhood lifestyle quality. Done right, you're set up nice and cozy, but no one thinks anything of it, unlike if you go for "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" approach.

With SR5, you can take "Hard to Find", "Extra Secure", and "Special Work Area" and still come under the price for basic High Lifestyle. Even if you say it takes an extra 1000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) more for real food, then you're still under the price tag for High, and you're much more secure.

[Titan]

I will post the second hurdle after a few days.

Sorry, I got distracted with local issues.

Second Hurdle:
We have to be careful to not trivialize any Archetype with price reductions.

This is a bit more complex than the last hurdle, because what defines an Archetype might vary from person to person.

But in short, to be really good at one Archetype should pretty much exclude you from being good at another Archetype.

For the most part, Archetypes are pretty much mutually exclusive. Example: If you are going to be really good Mage, you aren't going to be a good Street Sam (via tech). If you are going to augment yourself out for a Street Sam, you probably won't have room for a Control Rig. Stuff like that.

If an Archetype gets reduced to a piece of tech, and that tech is cheap enough, it makes it far too easy for anyone else to pick up that Archetype.

[KCKitsune]

Sorry, I got distracted with local issues.

Second Hurdle:
We have to be careful to not trivialize any Archetype with price reductions.

... SNIP for brevity...

If an Archetype gets reduced to a piece of tech, and that tech is cheap enough, it makes it far too easy for anyone else to pick up that Archetype.

Like I said before Titan, when Shadowrun was first published, computers were wonderful, mysterious things that only dedicated tech heads could understand. That does NOT apply to today. I would say that to not violate your second hurdle, we'd have to create cybernetics that would only be used by Deckers.

SR4 had three pieces of 'Ware that would be absolutely perfect for this: Encephalon and Simsense Booster, and Math SPU. I know SR3 had Encephalons, but I don't know the rules for them. I also know that SR5 has Math SPUs, but compared to SR4, they're VERY pathetic. I would also get rid of the "Multi-dimensional processor" Deck mod. Make it so that you can only get the initiative boost from cyberware.

If you were to incorporate the SR4 rules and pricing for these three pieces of ware and a datajack as a "Decker Rig", then you would have MINIMUM price of 100,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and an Essence cost of 1.5. This would be pricey enough to preclude other Archetypes from wanting to get into the arena, but even if they were to try, then the Decker would have an advantage that those who don't have this 'Ware would not have.

I would also make it that unless you have the "Decker Rig" then the max initiative you can have is INT + 2d6 (except Technomancers). Again, with 'Ware, you're just that much better than anyone who doesn't have that 'Ware.

[Glyph]

My philosophy is that being great at an archetype should preclude you from being great at another archetype, but that shadowrunners should still have some decent abilities outside of their specialty. The decker should be able to shoot, the street sam should be able to function in social situations, and the mage should be able to interact with modern technology if not actually hack.

Archetypes should not be trivialized, but shadowrunners don't have actual classes. What lets you create "hybrid" characters, as well as still keep archetypes, is breadth of skill. Just as reducing an archetype to one piece of gear cheapens it, reducing an archetype to one or two skills cheapens it. It should take most of your character-creating resources to fully cover an archetype, but you should be able to sacrifice that full coverage if you want to be good at something else, too.

A face, for example, might have a robust set of social skills, augmentations, adept powers, and a rolodex of contacts. But you could take a higher Agility, get a narrower set of social skills in order to have a higher pistols skill, get muscle toner and a reflex recorder instead of tailored pheromones, and get improved reflexes and combat sense instead of cool resolve. So now you have a more combat-capable face. This character won't have dice pools quite as high as the dedicated face's, or be as tough as a dedicated combat adept, but still has the ability to function in two different areas.

While I think going with augmentations rather than decks would protect the decker archetype even more, I think SR5 does do a good job of keeping them as a comparatively exclusive class. There is both a price barrier (for a cyberdeck and cerebral boosters) and a skill barrier (being a decker requires a lot of skills). Furthermore, decking is also an area that is unforgiving of dabblers - if you're going to deck, be good at it or you might as well not even bother.

[KCKitsune]

My philosophy is that being great at an archetype should preclude you from being great at another archetype, but that shadowrunners should still have some decent abilities outside of their specialty. The decker should be able to shoot, the street sam should be able to function in social situations, and the mage should be able to interact with modern technology if not actually hack.

Archetypes should not be trivialized, but shadowrunners don't have actual classes. What lets you create "hybrid" characters, as well as still keep archetypes, is breadth of skill. Just as reducing an archetype to one piece of gear cheapens it, reducing an archetype to one or two skills cheapens it. It should take most of your character-creating resources to fully cover an archetype, but you should be able to sacrifice that full coverage if you want to be good at something else, too.

A face, for example, might have a robust set of social skills, augmentations, adept powers, and a rolodex of contacts. But you could take a higher Agility, get a narrower set of social skills in order to have a higher pistols skill, get muscle toner and a reflex recorder instead of tailored pheromones, and get improved reflexes and combat sense instead of cool resolve. So now you have a more combat-capable face. This character won't have dice pools quite as high as the dedicated face's, or be as tough as a dedicated combat adept, but still has the ability to function in two different areas.

While I think going with augmentations rather than decks would protect the decker archetype even more, I think SR5 does do a good job of keeping them as a comparatively exclusive class. There is both a price barrier (for a cyberdeck and cerebral boosters) and a skill barrier (being a decker requires a lot of skills). Furthermore, decking is also an area that is unforgiving of dabblers - if you're going to deck, be good at it or you might as well not even bother.

The flip side of this problem is that if a deck gets broken, then the Decker is frakked. The Face you described above can lose contacts, but he can always make more... and quite easy if he's good enough. A Street Sam can have his gun destroyed, but can get a new gun no sweat. A Mage can lose his power focus, but can get a new one without really much sweat (will cost him Karma though), but the thing is, he's still capable of being a Mage.

When a decker gets his deck bricked, there is NO honest (meaning without GM fiat) way of the decker really getting back into the game. A mid tier deck costs about 200K. Sure you can get cheaper, but let's be honest, the cheaper decks are just about worthless.

For 200K, a Street Sam can replace his wired Reflexes for a Synaptic Booster level 2, AND still have 10K to buy a new gun. That's nothing to sneeze at.

[Glyph]

Yeah, that's why I prefer the augmentation route. A decker without a deck is screwed, unless the team loots a deck from an enemy decker. Then it becomes a metagaming question of why a group of independent contractors would give a 200K piece of gear to one team member rather than fence it and split the loot. I get the intentions behind making decks so expensive, but think the same game functions (game balance and decker role protection) could have been done a different, better way.

[KCKitsune]

Yeah, that's why I prefer the augmentation route. A decker without a deck is screwed, unless the team loots a deck from an enemy decker. Then it becomes a metagaming question of why a group of independent contractors would give a 200K piece of gear to one team member rather than fence it and split the loot. I get the intentions behind making decks so expensive, but think the same game functions (game balance and decker role protection) could have been done a different, better way.

That's why I said about the "Decker Rig". and the max initiative for a person without one. This route is not perfect by any means. Some would just see it as dice pool inflation.

Also, this might be heretical but, maybe the Decker as an Archetype should be retired. Like I said before, when Shadowrun was made a computer was as magical as Gandalf, and twice as cryptic. It took a dedicated computer person to really understand electronics. How many here had to program their parents VCRs? Now these days, everyone can program their own VCRs.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I kind of wish they had integrated Karma into cyber somehow. Like wired reflexes cost $10,000 and 1 essence and provided +1 reaction with 5 karma it at +1d6 and is fully functioning. 10 more karma and it's another +1 karma and d6 each gear had different karma costs and how that would improve it and some universal ones like reducing karma cost. The idea being its one thing to have some ware it's another to really know how to use it and get the most out of it. Something so everyone was kind of on the same advancement table. Low enough cash costs that people weren't wondering why they didn't retire and karma directly improved your gimmick along with staples like skills and attributes. Not sure if something like that would work in SR6 but it clearly goes beyond the scope of this topic.

Also the system should pay enough to explain why people go on runs instead of petty crime.

[JanessaVR]

Also the system should pay enough to explain why people go on runs instead of petty crime.

There are certainly several threads here about SedanRun ™, but that's a whole other discussion.