Sixth Edition, Release Announcement Options

[Sendaz]

It is not a bad idea, it does give you the effect of armor doing some work, but it does mean two different sets of rolling for soaking most every attack and could lead to some odd maths as it is giving more 'weight' to Body because you are using the full amount of body dice to counter both the stun AND the physical treating them effectively as separate actions.
Edited for new rollings:

So by your example you get to use your 4 Body to counter the 4 points of stun, thanks to the 4pts of armor, then roll your 4 body again to resist the 4 physical.
Law of average says rolling 4 dice should get 1 hit for certain with a chance of a second.
So they take 2-3 Stun and 2-3 Physical on average.

Compare that to the wet tissue paper as armor new rule where you only had 4 body dice to soak 8 physical damage, meaning they would have taken 6-7 physical.
So it spread out the damage as armor should.
On the surface it looks like its balanced, with the 4 pts of armor doing their job, but that might be because the armor and body happened to match.

Lets see what it does if Body was 6 and armor is still 4.
Same 8 damage coming in, but 4 get converted to stun.
Now we roll 6 body dice vs the 4 stun and 6 body dice vs the 4 remaining physical, effectively giving you 12 dice of 'Body' in all being rolled.
Law of average says 6 dice should get 2 hits, so they take 2 Stun and 2 Physical on average.

Again under the wet tissue paper as armor new rule, they would have been using the 6 body dice to soak 8 damage so they would be looking at 6 Physical damage on average.

Let's try this again for someone a bit more lightweight, Body 2 but same Armor Jacket with 4 Armor.
Same 8pt damage, 4 goes to stun and 4 stays as physical.
Resists each with just 2 Body dice, will be lucky if he scrapes off 1 hit each, so they are probably looking at 3-4 Stun and 3-4 Physical.

Which is not bad, considering using the new 'wet tissue paper worn armor system' they would have been sucking down 7-8 Physical damage.
They are still hurting, but it has spread the damage out.

So you are seeing double the amount of rolls used and will favour the High Body types thanks to splitting up the damage, though all Body dice will benefit from it of course.

Edit: I am growing to the idea, you are letting armor do its job after all, plus I LOVED my 3rd ed Troll who felt Light Ammo was a refreshing steel jacketed massage, BUT I think most will balk at having to do the extra splitting maths and extra rolling.


Personally we were suggesting a houserule where you just let worn armor DR add to the body dice, like it does for the Armor Spell or any cyber/bio bone augmentation, then you would be rolling 8 dice to resist 8 damage in your example. It has the benefit of being just one roll, but won't convert damage from P to S, so does lack in that regard.

In the end, it just depends on the level of granularity you want.

As for how to handle Pure stun attacks vs armor, that will take some thinking over.

[Sendaz]

In the meantime, can someone with the book confirm how Focused Concentration works in 6th?

Under 5th, your level in Focused Concentration determined the level of the SINGLE spell you could sustain without penalty.
So FC3 meant I could have ONE spell up to Force 3 being sustained without incurring the sustaining penalty

Someone mentioned that the new version means each level of FC is for one spell EACH, so FC3 means you can have 3 different spells sustained without incurring sustaining penalties, but they could not cite the page or show the text.

This seems kind of important.

There was also mention of Adepts not losing Power Points if their Essence drops due to things like installing cyberware.
This is extremely important and hope someone can clarify this as this would mean you could build SammieCyberAdepts like nobody's business.

[Tunnel Rat]

I had considered just rolling Defense rating (Which is body + armor), but thought I'd try out my idea first. I'm less worried about rolling twice since it's a body roll alone.

But having physical convert to stun is tempting so you don't just massacre your players.

Of course, you could also roll body + armor against damage, and then convert later. So, if you take 8 damage and manage to reduce it by 2, then you would take 6 damage which is changed to 2 physical and 4 stun.

As for focused concentration:

Yes, each level (max 3) allows you to sustain a single spell with a modified DV of no more than 7. And each level costs 12 karma now, and not 4.

Re-reading the adept section, I suppose there COULD be a reading where you don't lose powers when you lose essence. But I don't think that was the intent, and there is a line where your power points equals your magic. So, by THAT reading you would lose power points if you lost essence.

[Stahlseele]

I still say the SR3 system was best.

[Moirdryd]

You ain't wrong there chummer

[binarywraith]

I still say the SR3 system was best.

Agreed, although it has its own warts.

[Jaid]

Agreed, although it has its own warts.

better than a game that is warts with a few decent bits hidden under them somewhere though.

[hermit]

I still say the SR3 system was best.

+1

It was complex and the rules never developed a unified mechanic like SR4 did (purely rules-wise, SR4 is far more elegant), but it allowed a lot of nuance, customization, incremental character development with high-cost characters (like building up your Radio Shack PCD into an Excalibur equivalent one point of MPCP at a time), and by far the best Matrix system of any edition (taken all the way through, SR4 goes straight back to SR2's dungeon systems; plus, technomancers were a train wreck of imbalance - thank you, Moritz, and shame on the editor for letting Moritz get away with purpose-writing PG rules for his kendermancer OC).

Sure, SR3 allowed for crazy shit. Every edition did. In SR3, with crazy luck (or a die you know well enough), you could levitate an entire house and crash it onto your enemies. However, SR4 had Bloodzilla, the Agent Smith army, and the Neomancer. Every edition had abuse potential.

What, in retrospect, I like best about SR3 was that it let you do things in a way later editions never did. It had working construction rules for your own guns and vehicles, cyberdecks and terminals. You could do a lot of fun stuff with that. You could also abuse the hell out of it, but that's always the trade-off with options.

For all the options SR4 offered, and all the options (like playable infected, critters, spirits, Gen 2 AI) it put on the table SR3 did not, it also took a lot of them away, and those it took away were much more commonly used than some of those it added (seriously, who plays centaurs? This is a rhetorical question, I do not want to know). It also did a lot for cybered characters, in making cyberware more affordable and adding interesting items (can't be said about SR5, the crap container edition of cyberware). However, it took away nearly all the options riggers and deckers had (actually, it pretty much took away riggers as a viable archetype).

Now, I've made my peace with 4E, which has a lot of merits on its own. But if you ask me? For all its overcomplexity, for all its in parts contradictory and learning-intensive rules, for all its ridiculously overpriced cyberware and stock cyberdecks, SR3 let me do a lot more stuff with the types of characters I like to play.

[binarywraith]

SR3 even went out of its way to acknowledge cyberware was really expensive and -suggested- discounted 'ware as a thing Johnsons should offer instead of cash.

I actually liked it that way, because it meant your Sam never had everything she wanted at chargen, and thus had room to improve in play.

[Kyoto Kid]

[quote name='Jaid' date='May 23 2019, 04:23 PM' post='1345283']

[sarcasm] but hey, there are apparently still some wireless bonuses in SR6. maybe if you connect your armour to the matrix it will actually provide some protective value. [/sarcasm]
...ooh, but my decker Violet would love that, particularly for those sec guards and HTR teams in FBA with a lot of toys installed.

[Kyoto Kid]

...ah, already posted about this.

[Kyoto Kid]

Can't ... shoot ... need ... soykaf ...

.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Kyoto Kid]

given a choice between a system where wearing heavy armour makes you better at everything (but only so long as you're getting shot at, otherwise you'll be no better than anyone else) and a system that encourages you to cyber up for combat in a CYBERpunk game, i'm gonna take the one that encourages me to cyber up, thanks.

...but what about having the best of both worlds? I loved rolling a full 36 ct. dice cube for my little troublemaker Leela's soak rolls when she was in her medium milspec over Beta Orthoskin 4 and Beta Titanium Bone Lacing while pumped up on Kamikaze (the effects of which were amplified by her Narco genemod).

With her double barreled Onotari Interceptor launcher on her shoulder and her completely tricked out Yamaha Raiden slung over her back (loaded with EXEX handload), she looked like a Mini Gundam.

Would miss that in 6E.

[Kyoto Kid]

Technically speaking, SR3 is the best edition there has ever been.
Highly impractical for playing though, for exactly the same reason.

...still my preferred edition. Crikey I even played two different deckers in 3E. It was more challenging as you couldn't just sit in the armoured up Roadmaster and screw with a host remotely, you had to go in so you also had to know how to handle yourself when all drek broke loose. Of course with a million nuyen you could get enough chrome and wetware to keep you alive in the meat world. My current decker in 5E has to rely on a cyberarm with modded up agility and armour to even be halfway useful when the air turns to lead (and then it's usually suppression fire with her SMG from a place of cover). She rarely goes VR either unless she knows she's away from the action.

I also liked the variable TN (made Smartlinks really useful, so much so that I even had my namesake Adept get one), the fact Perception was a function of Intelligence rather than a skill you had to expend build points/Karma on, and that all chrome was "hard wired".

[Jaid]

...but what about having the best of both worlds? I loved rolling a full 36 ct. dice cube for my little troublemaker Leela's soak rolls when she was in her medium milspec over Beta Orthoskin 4 and Beta Titanium Bone Lacing while pumped up on Kamikaze (the effects of which were amplified by her Narco genemod).

With her double barreled Onotari Interceptor launcher on her shoulder and her completely tricked out Yamaha Raiden slung over her back (loaded with EXEX handload), she looked like a Mini Gundam.

Would miss that in 6E.

what best part of both worlds? why would i want super-heavy armour that can make me better at sneaking, gymnastics, and contortionism, so long as i'm being shot at, but does essentially nothing to keep me alive? only one of those worlds has anything that i actually find desirable at all. the other one is being drowned in pure liquid stupidity.

so far, i haven't seen anything in 6th edition that makes me even want to steal it to convert to earlier editions (or at least, nothing that didn't already exist long before 6th edition came out).

[Kyoto Kid]

Gee, it's almost like a lot of the people posting here have been playing since before 3e was the currently supported version, and have already done all that effort...

...yep, since 1E here.

Still miss the old skill web where one could conceivably make a high explosive with skill in gourmet cooking.

[Kyoto Kid]

Plus you should not have to rely on Edge. Edge was supposed to help lend a more cinematic feel, letting you push the envelope a bit.
Requiring Edge to do basic functions like take the place of your armor is a bad idea.

...^this^

For example, the usual Edge expenditure for my Decker Violet in 5E is when she is going directly after a host (he Hacking skill is specialised in Hosts). There are times when she has no other option like having some slaved device to jack into. Hosts, particularly important ones are also pretty tough to crack and get a mark on (Logic + hacking vs. Rating + Firewall). so rolling her Skill + Logic + Edge will give her a bit of an advantage not only in dice pool, but exploding 6s and ignoring limits. On the last mission was going up against a rating 7 firewall 10 host and got a total of 18 hits (after the exploding 6s) against the host's 7, giving her 11 net. "Yeah like a walk in Commons Park."

That is the "cinematic" aspect which Edge is supposed to represent.

[Kyoto Kid]

Looks like CGL has gone back to the well again with plagiarising internet artists' work and doing a quick photomanipulation over it for SR.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments...yuki_matsumura/

...being a 3D artist myself with works (including ones based on SR) on a couple gallery sites, I find this a bit disconcerting.

[Kyoto Kid]

what best part of both worlds? why would i want super-heavy armour that can make me better at sneaking, gymnastics, and contortionism, so long as i'm being shot at, but does essentially nothing to keep me alive? only one of those worlds has anything that i actually find desirable at all. the other one is being drowned in pure liquid stupidity.

so far, i haven't seen anything in 6th edition that makes me even want to steal it to convert to earlier editions (or at least, nothing that didn't already exist long before 6th edition came out).

...I was speaking from a 5E perspective where armour does add to soak.

[binarywraith]

...being a 3D artist myself with works (including ones based on SR) on a couple gallery sites, I find this a bit disconcerting.

I haven't stopped laughing about it since they got caught pulling images from wikipedia for one of the Gun Heaven books.

[AccessControl]

I've managed to get ahold of one of the CRBs from GenCon, and I'm amazed at what is either an oversight in design or an intentional nerf to cyberlimbs.

In SR6, cyberlimbs start with ALL their Physical attributes set at 2, instead of the previous edition's Strength and Agility of 3. Strength, Agility, and Armor can be upgraded via capacity-filling modules, to a maximum of +4 on top of your natural attribute.

Cyberlimbs also have the note, similar BUT DIFFERENT to the previous edition, where if you have limbs with different attributes (say, only one cyberarm), you take the LOWEST attribute among all the limbs to make a relevant test unless the test is solely being performed with the augmented limb, like firing a gun with only that arm.

So...that means the instant you get a cyberlimb, all your damage soak tests (which are based on Body, a physical attribute), will never be able to have a dice pool higher than 2 without Edge, because all cyberlimbs have a Body attribute of 2 and this attribute can't be upgraded via add-ons, unless the GM somehow rules that the shot is intentionally targeting a non-augmented portion of you.

What the hell, CGL?

[Moirdryd]

Are we even surprised at this juncture?

[bannockburn]

Can't say that I am. I took a look at the quick start rules this weekend, and they're a complete mess, even corrected by Pegasus.

[binarywraith]

They're advertising for Missions writers again too... wanting a 2-pager of spec work before they'll even consider someone to pitch a full adventure. No mention of compensation, so probably another 'exposure' gig.

[Nstol_wisper]

I've managed to get ahold of one of the CRBs from GenCon, and I'm amazed at what is either an oversight in design or an intentional nerf to cyberlimbs.

In SR6, cyberlimbs start with ALL their Physical attributes set at 2, instead of the previous edition's Strength and Agility of 3. Strength, Agility, and Armor can be upgraded via capacity-filling modules, to a maximum of +4 on top of your natural attribute.

Cyberlimbs also have the note, similar BUT DIFFERENT to the previous edition, where if you have limbs with different attributes (say, only one cyberarm), you take the LOWEST attribute among all the limbs to make a relevant test unless the test is solely being performed with the augmented limb, like firing a gun with only that arm.

So...that means the instant you get a cyberlimb, all your damage soak tests (which are based on Body, a physical attribute), will never be able to have a dice pool higher than 2 without Edge, because all cyberlimbs have a Body attribute of 2 and this attribute can't be upgraded via add-ons, unless the GM somehow rules that the shot is intentionally targeting a non-augmented portion of you.

What the hell, CGL?

How fast do you regain your base Edge?