Sixth Edition, Release Announcement Options

[bannockburn]

...yeah but the PDF is only 19.99$ at Drive Through, compared to 50$ (70$ at Amazon) for the dead tree version with PDF. A lot of us are living low lifestyles in RL.

Sure, this is why I said "if you want something for the collection" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Just wanted people to know that they have the option without having to buy twice.

[Kyoto Kid]

...yeah, that's sort of what happened with Deus in the 2060s.

One of my characters was so peeved that Lucien Cross died in a plane crash. She was a Fallen Angel and wanted to be the one to give him his "last rites" for ruining her life. They just wimped out on so many good plot threads in the changeover, particularly all the politically juicy stuff that was happening in the UK and Europe.

When I think about such a scenario, and then imagine, with how dependent we are on wireless and satellites in RL, the chaos one good solar flare would cause. Suddenly everyone's smartphone, netbook, notebook and desktop computer becomes an expensive paperweight, and that old manual typewriter I have in the closet gets a new lease on life.

Now that is an apocalypse.

[Nstol_wisper]

The Shadowrun Matrix is like a wild continent. They move in, people grap all the resource rights they can. then the governemnt lacking a real conservation plan just depletes the resources until the system collapses, destroying the natural inhabitance and killing off species.
In a regular cycle.

[Sengir]

... one of which leaked the entire pre-errata, first-print PDF, so that trust is obviously well placed ...

It should also be said that, despite a much larger (though still not sufficient) playtest campaign in 5th, no such leak happened there.

To be fair, leaks do not have to be intentional. Leaks through webserver directories, misconfigured S3 buckets, or good old FTPs with default password have happened to organizations with far more stringent security procedures than CGL.

[Nstol_wisper]

The Matrix concept imitates life. People put their immorality out front covered by a lie, covered by another crime covered by another lie,........
Now...They.....Can't...Get...Out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

[hermit]

To be fair, leaks do not have to be intentional. Leaks through webserver directories, misconfigured S3 buckets, or good old FTPs with default password have happened to organizations with far more stringent security procedures than CGL.

Fair enough. There's enough incompetence to go round at CGL at least.

[HappyDaze]

So, am I missing something, or is it hard to make a swordsman that hits as hard as a bare-knuckle troll?

It looks like nothing commonly available beats the DV of a punch from a cybered-up troll.

With an augmented Strength of 13 and dermal deposits, the troll has a base DV of 8P. Titanium bone lacing or bone density augmentation 4 can get this up to 10P. With an AV of (15 + Reaction) which outclasses even a monowhip.

Even a much less maximized troll with an augmented Strength of 7 and plastic bone lacing or bone density augmentation 1 gets a DV of 6P and an AV of (8 + Reaction) which is still as good or better than all melee weapons.

[Jaid]

So, am I missing something, or is it hard to make a swordsman that hits as hard as a bare-knuckle troll?

It looks like nothing commonly available beats the DV of a punch from a cybered-up troll.

With an augmented Strength of 13 and dermal deposits, the troll has a base DV of 8P. Titanium bone lacing or bone density augmentation 4 can get this up to 10P. With an AV of (15 + Reaction) which outclasses even a monowhip.

Even a much less maximized troll with an augmented Strength of 7 and plastic bone lacing or bone density augmentation 1 gets a DV of 6P and an AV of (8 + Reaction) which is still as good or better than all melee weapons.

no, you're not missing anything. even more funny is that if you give that minmaxed troll a knife and give a pixie a sword, the pixie will do more damage. [sarcasm] hurray for streamlining!!! [/sarcasm]

[Nstol_wisper]

So, am I missing something, or is it hard to make a swordsman that hits as hard as a bare-knuckle troll?

It looks like nothing commonly available beats the DV of a punch from a cybered-up troll.

With an augmented Strength of 13 and dermal deposits, the troll has a base DV of 8P. Titanium bone lacing or bone density augmentation 4 can get this up to 10P. With an AV of (15 + Reaction) which outclasses even a monowhip.

Even a much less maximized troll with an augmented Strength of 7 and plastic bone lacing or bone density augmentation 1 gets a DV of 6P and an AV of (8 + Reaction) which is still as good or better than all melee weapons.

A high Reaction, Willpower, Agility and a big gun will solve most problems. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

So, am I missing something, or is it hard to make a swordsman that hits as hard as a bare-knuckle troll?

It looks like nothing commonly available beats the DV of a punch from a cybered-up troll.

With an augmented Strength of 13 and dermal deposits, the troll has a base DV of 8P. Titanium bone lacing or bone density augmentation 4 can get this up to 10P. With an AV of (15 + Reaction) which outclasses even a monowhip.

Even a much less maximized troll with an augmented Strength of 7 and plastic bone lacing or bone density augmentation 1 gets a DV of 6P and an AV of (8 + Reaction) which is still as good or better than all melee weapons.

I don't see the Problem.
That means a considerable investment of ressources just to be good at punching people hard.
Doesn't even mean he will be hitting all that often, only that when he does, people are gonna notice.
WHICH IS HOW IT FRAGGING SHOULD BE!
Trolls USED to be 3.5m huge Monsters, weighing in at half a ton or more of Muscle and Bone.
Trolls are the stuff of legends come to life, quite literally. Violent Legends at that.
You think this is bad for some reason?
Be very happy you never played SR3. Most SR3 Trolls would wipe the floor with even small dragons as of SR4 <.<

[Jaid]

I don't see the Problem.
That means a considerable investment of ressources just to be good at punching people hard.
Doesn't even mean he will be hitting all that often, only that when he does, people are gonna notice.
WHICH IS HOW IT FRAGGING SHOULD BE!
Trolls USED to be 3.5m huge Monsters, weighing in at half a ton or more of Muscle and Bone.
Trolls are the stuff of legends come to life, quite literally. Violent Legends at that.
You think this is bad for some reason?
Be very happy you never played SR3. Most SR3 Trolls would wipe the floor with even small dragons as of SR4 <.<

he thinks it's bad that if you give that troll a knife, suddenly he becomes no different than anyone else with a knife in terms of damage and attack rating. and also that if you give that troll an axe, his damage and combat rating will go down (it goes down with the knife too, it's just more silly when you consider that it happens with a great big axe too).

[Kyoto Kid]

...exactly.

[Stahlseele]

OK, yes, that is, indeed, very stupid. Carry on then.

[Nstol_wisper]

Skill with a weapon or fighting style should not be canceled by Strength alone.
There is strength sure, but body and willpower allows a character to absorb damage, Agility is related to skill with a style. A good fighter knows how not to get hit.
Look at grappling in the Combat section. That is unarmed strength against unarmed strength plus skill. In reality most fights end up in grappling contests, since the average person can't fight anyway...no skill.

[Moirdryd]

Which explains why a Troll does less damage with a knife that it's fist how?

[Kyoto Kid]

...and only body absorbs damage under the new rules, Willpower does not come into play in physical combat.

[Sendaz]

...and only body absorbs damage under the new rules, Willpower does not come into play in physical combat.

Eh, he may be reading a different core book than the rest of us.

Plus remember wearing actual damage resistant materials between you and the weapon does nothing to reduce the damage, while bone lacing still helps reduce damage even if it doesn't punch all the way to the metal wrapped calcium sticks stuck in the middle of your meat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Nstol_wisper]

The Willpower attribute is used to calculate your Stun condition capacity.
And normally, unarmed combat does stun damage. I suppose you can ignore willpower and risked being knocked out.

Pg. 38 Condition Monitors

[bannockburn]

Or you could realize that just because WP governs the boxes in the monitor it doesn't mean that you resist damage with it (other than spells, of course).

Long story short: You're not making sense.

[Sendaz]

The Willpower attribute is use to calculate your Stun condition capacity.
And normally, unarmed combat does stun damage. I suppose you can ignore willpower and risked being knocked out.

Pg. 38 Condition Monitors

WP totally does add to your overall stun capacity, but its not by much as it is just relevant stat/2 (rounded up)+ 8 boxes.

So one guy who took just WIL 3 and 6 Body has 10 stun boxes/ 11 Physical vs the your bloke who splurged on Will 6 but only spent 3 on Body has 11 stun boxes/10 physical boxes.

Your guy has one extra stun box( yay!), but only throwing 3 dice to resist punches to the face so on average will reduce hits by 1.

Our guy may only have 10 stun boxes (boo!), but 6 body on average will be reducing 2 hits on each punch.

So who do you think is going to last longer in your proverbial fistfight?

Now for the sake of argument, lets say they both have the same body to soak the punches, that one extra box may be a small edge, but not as much as you try to make it out as most of the punches will probably be a few hits wort, so the two would go down pretty close to one another.
It might be different if the condition bars were full stat instead of half stat in addition to base.

Plus if your guy has already splurged on max WIL and BOD, how much is left for STR to land those hard hits? Absorbing damage is nice, but dishing it out fast enough that the other guy quits hitting you has its appeal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Sendaz]

Here is a fun NQ they added.


Impaired (Attribute)
Some folks are just not meant to be naturally talented. A bum knee, poor genetics, or an illness as a kid has you lacking the maximum achievement level of your peers.
• Bonus: 8 Karma per level
• Game Effect: For each level, the character’s maximum for the chosen attribute decreases by 1, to a minimum of 2.


So say you plan to be a cybered up Sammie who is more than a little gruff because he is a killing machine just waiting for the GO! signal? Take an Impaired Charisma to represent just how chilly you are, even with friends as you can warm to them only so much.

Or say you are a street rat mage who grew up on really substandard fare so your bone structure development was a bit subpar which means BODY and STR max is capped so no Steve Rogers look for you, even if you do start buying the good stuff thanks to Running or stealing Americars. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Not sure how this meshes with any augmentations, though some folk are already talking about house ruling penalties to boni from augments for an impaired stat to avoid the worst cheesing.

[Kyoto Kid]

...hmm, Impaired Attribute: Body. Guess some characters may have a real death wish. May as well get a cranial area bomb implant and take a few of the oppos out when you flatline.

I actually remember doing something similar in a Champions "battle royale to the death many years ago (never liked PVP). SO I built a character with just a single power Ranged Killing attack, with explosive and area effect, one time use only (so it was extremely powerful) with the trigger being hit by any attack and no other super powers, as well as the Glass Jaw disadvantage. Wandered around the fighting pit for a couple turns occasionally insulting other characters who ignored him at first then one of the big brutes decided to punch the annoying skinny guy in normal clothes. Ended that bout real quick.

Kind of like playing the Saeder-Krupp card in the old SR trading card game when my safehouse was on the ropes and one of the other players was one mission away from winning.

[Jaid]

eh, well, it's probably fine. if you were never going to hit body 6 anyways (let's say body 5 is enough for you), it's no big deal to impair it by 1.

more to the point though, from what i've heard many of the negative qualities are horrendously crippling and give FAR worse karma than you get for impairing your dump stat. as has been mentioned, impaired attribute is such a (comparatively) good negative quality that there's been extensive discussion on how to nerf it to avoid abuse.

personally, i think perhaps they should focus on making horrendously crippling negative qualities actually provide a decent enough amount of karma that you wouldn't have to be a moron to take them (from an optimization standpoint at least... and frankly, i think you'd be better off RPing most of those negative qualities if you think they fit your character, from everything i've heard). because let's face it, if you nerf all the negative qualities that *aren't* going to utterly cripple a character in exchange for a pittance of karma, that just leaves you with a situation where people don't take negative qualities at all.

[Moirdryd]

So, from what I have seen so far, everyone takes this multiple times on Strength, and is a Troll Mage.

[Kyoto Kid]

eh, well, it's probably fine. if you were never going to hit body 6 anyways (let's say body 5 is enough for you), it's no big deal to impair it by 1.

more to the point though, from what i've heard many of the negative qualities are horrendously crippling and give FAR worse karma than you get for impairing your dump stat. as has been mentioned, impaired attribute is such a (comparatively) good negative quality that there's been extensive discussion on how to nerf it to avoid abuse.

personally, i think perhaps they should focus on making horrendously crippling negative qualities actually provide a decent enough amount of karma that you wouldn't have to be a moron to take them (from an optimization standpoint at least... and frankly, i think you'd be better off RPing most of those negative qualities if you think they fit your character, from everything i've heard). because let's face it, if you nerf all the negative qualities that *aren't* going to utterly cripple a character in exchange for a pittance of karma, that just leaves you with a situation where people don't take negative qualities at all.

...well said. So Much for additional build Kaerma.