Sixth Edition, Release Announcement Options

[Catsnightmare]

Yep, once again, no real reason to stop using 3rd Edition.

[Stahlseele]

And people looked at me funny when i wrote that about 4th edition . . you youngsters git off my lawn!

[Iduno]

Yeah, it's too bad. Fourth had some good ideas. If they'd have fixed the implementation instead of removing all of the good ideas, it would have been good for the game.

[Sengir]

when the statement is made that something is like the way it worked in those earlier editions, it is exactly about how well characters would perform in the 2 different editions..

Oh come on, you're trying to twist my statement about the initiative order being the same into a comparison of power levels? Are you that desperate?

[Stahlseele]

Well, to be honest, if you can't single tap an enemy out of the combat, then going more times before he even gets his go is simply better than alternating, because it seriously lessens the risk of retaliation . .

[Wounded Ronin]

I'm looking at all the comments here and wondering why they ever went away from 2nd and 3rd edition. There was no true need to do so. They basically made a completely different game.

[Stahlseele]

NOW NEW AND BETTER!
BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY !

[bannockburn]

IMO, SR got better and better with each edition, peaking at 4A and then worse. Let's see what the new one has in stock, but I'm not optimistic based on the last one.
Either way, I'm not switching, because I still have material enough for the next 20 years.

edit:

NOW NEW AND BETTER!
BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY !

I cannot fault a company for bringing out new editions of their popular IP. It is WAY easier to bring out a new edition and the accompanying new core books than surviving on the proceeds of setting book after setting book that only GMs buy.

[Geiger]

Yeah, admittedly, I came in with Shadowrun 4e, and it just makes more sense to me than other editions. I've seen a bit of third, but third doesn't click in the same manner, but is admittedly, still coherent enough for me to accept that it's a good system... just not my cup of tea.

Fifth is not. Fifth is a raging dumpster fire, IMO. Sure it's got decent chapters or sections, but that's because the entire thing is a hodgepodge of freelancers of wildly different quality. There is no coherent whole, like was present in the past.

[Moirdryd]

NERPS! for Him!, NERPS! for Her!, NERPS! for Them!, NERPS for You!, NERPS! for Me! NERPS! for Shadowrun!

[Iduno]

Yeah, admittedly, I came in with Shadowrun 4e, and it just makes more sense to me than other editions. I've seen a bit of third, but third doesn't click in the same manner, but is admittedly, still coherent enough for me to accept that it's a good system... just not my cup of tea.

Fifth is not. Fifth is a raging dumpster fire, IMO. Sure it's got decent chapters or sections, but that's because the entire thing is a hodgepodge of freelancers of wildly different quality. There is no coherent whole, like was present in the past.

Fifth's problem was that it wasn't an edition. It was "4th edition, except each of us individually wrote up a list of changes, then compiled them without editing or noticing that some things got nerfed 3-4 times." I didn't help that there were several fixes like "what's the solution to wearable tech being cheaper than cyber, but cheaper and essence-free?" "We can give cyberware weird bonuses, then create a drawback so we aren't making cyberware better. Also, so we don't make cyberware better, we should make those bonuses things that already exist, and now can only access if you accept the drawback." Done right, fifth should have been fourth with lessons learned, but that takes effort, and admitting to problems.

[Jaid]

Fifth's problem was that it wasn't an edition. It was "4th edition, except each of us individually wrote up a list of changes, then compiled them without editing or noticing that some things got nerfed 3-4 times." I didn't help that there were several fixes like "what's the solution to wearable tech being cheaper than cyber, but cheaper and essence-free?" "We can give cyberware weird bonuses, then create a drawback so we aren't making cyberware better. Also, so we don't make cyberware better, we should make those bonuses things that already exist, and now can only access if you accept the drawback." Done right, fifth should have been fourth with lessons learned, but that takes effort, and admitting to problems.

that's actually a pretty good summary of SR5.

except you forgot the part where they also increased the cost of cyberware relative to starting resources, also to make sure that cyberware wouldn't be overpowered.

[Glyph]

That's okay though, since now that they don't halve the Essence cost of the lower amount of cyberware/bioware, the sammies can't get as many augmentations implanted, either.

[Jaid]

That's okay though, since now that they don't halve the Essence cost of the lower amount of cyberware/bioware, the sammies can't get as many augmentations implanted, either.

yup. thank goodness they nerfed magic to keep it form being wildly overpowered by.... err... ummm... allowing them to exceed the limits that were supposed to keep everyone from getting use out of ridiculous dice pools by spending money that they otherwise didn't need? wait... hold on a second...

[bannockburn]

New and improved! No Limits anymore!

[Iduno]

that's actually a pretty good summary of SR5.

except you forgot the part where they also increased the cost of cyberware relative to starting resources, also to make sure that cyberware wouldn't be overpowered.

That's okay though, since now that they don't halve the Essence cost of the lower amount of cyberware/bioware, the sammies can't get as many augmentations implanted, either.

That's what I meant by some things getting nerfed 3-4 times. I mentioned cyberware losing functionality, but it also lowers charisma or charisma limit or whatever. I haven't opened 5th edition books for years.

[Sengir]

New and improved! No Limits anymore!

...which IMO was one of the new ideas in 5th that were actually good ideas, execution notwithstanding. Inherent limits for everything (plus modifiers for half of them) or calling the stat which spay n' pray SMGs need more than sniper rifles "Accuracy" are not going to be missed, but not because the concept of "your stuff limits how good you can do certain tasks" is bad in itself.

[bannockburn]

Don't get me wrong, I liked the idea of limits as well. In theory. In practice, they're just another (floating, no less!) stat that you need to keep track of, and easily ignored by spending edge. Which bogs Shadowrun's notoriously tedious combat down further.

I just find it exceptionally funny that it's now touted as an innovation that they're going away again.

[Jaid]

I just find it exceptionally funny that it's now touted as an innovation that they're going away again.

i find it *particularly* ironic to call it innovation considering that if you look at when they said they started work on SR6, it happens to line up with being not excessively long after 5th edition D&D. you know, the edition where they basically killed off most of the previous one that a huge portion of their fan base hated and put a lot of effort into making it feel like all the editions of D&D before the previous one?

if you pay close attention to the "new" stuff in 6th edition, you may find a fair number of things that may make you think "hang on... isn't this almost straight out of the pages of SR <insert number from 1 to 4 here>?"

in other words... it looks an *awful* lot like they realized SR5 was just as big of a fiasco as D&D 4 (well, in relative terms, D&D has a much larger portion of market share) and tried to use the exact same strategy as D&D 5 with SR6.

well, except for the part where WotC hired on an all-star developer team for the project and did huge open playtests to actually get fan feedback and make sure they were doing things right, and CGL had the same overworked team of underpaid freelancers that were doing SR5 also working on SR6 as a second (or more) side job... and their equivalent of the open playtest is that this time around, they've actually acknowledged that they might need errata and supposedly have a plan in place for it. which i suppose is better than having huge obvious errors pointed out in the PDF show up in the print version that came out several months later, but... not exactly reassuring in terms of making me feel like they didn't take half-measures.

ah well. we'll see. i would really like SR6 to be good. i certainly won't be excessively surprised if the same dev team in charge of the same freelancers make the same mistakes though.

[bannockburn]

I have been thinking about 6th edition for a while now.
I've come to realize that it's probably better to bring out a completely new edition than just going for, let's call it 30th Anniversary edition 5A.

There are so many areas where the system is lacking that it might even be a good idea to do what they did with the switch from 3 to 4, and completely burn down the mechanics and re-build from scratch.

We'll see what we'll see.

[ Spoiler ]

Still not optimistic under the current lead

[Iduno]

in other words... it looks an *awful* lot like they realized SR5 was just as big of a fiasco as D&D 4 (well, in relative terms, D&D has a much larger portion of market share) and tried to use the exact same strategy as D&D 5 with SR6.

Huh. Mearls and Hardy do share a lot of traits, and both were directly responsible for the previous unliked edition being bad because they don't know how to design anything. Also, both unliked editions were based off saying the right things and implementing them badly because they and their friends like terrible things so the fans can suck on it.

[Sengir]

In practice, they're just another (floating, no less!) stat that you need to keep track of, and easily ignored by spending edge. Which bogs Shadowrun's notoriously tedious combat down further.

IMO both are the big problems outside of combat, but in combat the limit is a stat that can go next to the other stats and in my experience Accuracy is fairly static. My problem with limits in combat is that the limit is called "Accuracy" and accordingly, more accurate weapons have a higher limit, but in practice it limits the opposite of accurate shooting. Challenges to marksmanship are modeled with DP penalties, not by requiring a certain number of hits, therefore limiting the number of hits does absolutely nothing when trying a precision shot. Where the stat named "Accuracy" does play a role is when you're hosing the hallway with your 1000+ RPM SMG to hit that wired fragger...

I just find it exceptionally funny that it's now touted as an innovation that they're going away again.

Well, funny in a "why are you throwing out the baby with the water" kind of way...

well, except for the part where WotC hired on an all-star developer team for the project

Including the guy who at that point claimed there's a literal conspiracy to destroy the hobby from within (it got worse since then), and the guy who at that point was already known for habitually harassing people and being banned from just about every RPG forum (it got worse since then).

That's obviously not an argument against the idea of getting "consultants" aboard (or open playtests), but WotC's execution isn't exactly a shining example of how to do things right (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jaid]

Including the guy who at that point claimed there's a literal conspiracy to destroy the hobby from within (it got worse since then), and the guy who at that point was already known for habitually harassing people and being banned from just about every RPG forum (it got worse since then).

That's obviously not an argument against the idea of getting "consultants" aboard (or open playtests), but WotC's execution isn't exactly a shining example of how to do things right (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

*shrug* from the perspective of doing a good job of designing, that's still better than having inexperienced authors who are writing your previous edition as their second or third job also take on writing your next edition as their third or fourth job (and let's not forget their fourth or fifth job of checking each other's stuff, and potentially heading up the errata team, without compensation), with the proper dev team being absolutely rubbish when it comes to giving proper direction, fact-checking, proofreading, etc.

i mean, frankly, i don't think the current team still working at WotC are all that great without the rest of the team they had for the core books. but they did a pretty danged good job with those core books, and clearly some of the people they hired must have been competent because it's a heck of a lot better than the crud the dev team at WotC can shovel in our direction without a full team to do a lot of the work for them. half the time i suspect they don't even really understand the basic guiding principles they used to write the edition at WotC's head office any more.

[bannockburn]

My problem with limits in combat is that the limit is called "Accuracy" and accordingly, more accurate weapons have a higher limit, but in practice it limits the opposite of accurate shooting.

Yes, that is one of the weirder side effects.
Or the way you can more easily disarm someone with shot / flechette ammo on wide spread, without harming the holder of the weapon. That's something that was already apparent and one of my players reported it during playtesting. But to my knowledge, it was never changed to simply exclude shotguns.

[KCKitsune]

that's actually a pretty good summary of SR5.

except you forgot the part where they also increased the cost of cyberware relative to starting resources, also to make sure that cyberware wouldn't be overpowered.

EDIT: Nevermind... ninja'd by a number of other people.