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> Uses for elemental manipulation
paul_HArkonen
post May 20 2004, 02:28 PM
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reading the descritions for elemental manipulation spells, shouldn't it be possible to target inside a van or somehting, and attack through the windows, I just want to verify that i am correct in using windows or the like to take out automobiles, or the inside of guard houses.
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A Clockwork Lime
post May 20 2004, 02:32 PM
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You have to be able to see the destination. If you can see through the windows, sure, you can target the area inside and hope your spell breaks through the window to get there. But if the windows are mirrored or heavily tinted, no dice.
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Person 404
post May 20 2004, 02:32 PM
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Hence the popularity (I believe referenced in the BBB) of tinted windows. Can't target what you can't see.
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paul_HArkonen
post May 20 2004, 02:34 PM
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right, i knew about the tinted windows, part, but breaking through is what i'm not sure about. Magic is described as starting out at the spot, so what are the rules for breaking through thngs like windows, either a page number or general idea are fine.
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Nikoli
post May 20 2004, 02:36 PM
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I'd imagine you'd have to face teh barrier, or in this case isn't it double the barrier rating for an elemental manip to breakthrough?
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A Clockwork Lime
post May 20 2004, 02:40 PM
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SR3 p. 124-125 gives you the rules for firing/breaking through a barrier. SR3 p. 182 references those rules for elemental manipulation spells.
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paul_HArkonen
post May 20 2004, 02:42 PM
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ok, that makes my life a lot easier, thanks.
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A Clockwork Lime
post May 20 2004, 03:01 PM
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Oh, and because I missed it when you first mentioned it, elemental manipulations are an exception to the "manifests at the targeted area" rule for spells. All elemental manipulations originate at the caster and "shoot" towards the destination. This forces them to break through any obstacles or barriers along the path, whereas combat spells don't have to do that.
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Nikoli
post May 20 2004, 03:02 PM
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So, go for a sonic manip that is designed to shatter glass and glass like objects
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TinkerGnome
post May 20 2004, 03:06 PM
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Rigger controlled vehicles often plate over the inside of the windows with armor :) At least, my riggers tend to (they're generally removable, though).
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A Clockwork Lime
post May 20 2004, 03:07 PM
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No such thing as elemental "sound" in Shadowrun. Elemental Blast (Thunderclap/bolt) or Metal are your best bets in that regard.
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Cray74
post May 20 2004, 03:08 PM
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QUOTE (TinkerGnome)
Rigger controlled vehicles often plate over the inside of the windows with armor :) At least, my riggers tend to (they're generally removable, though).

I just go for armored windows...

Can spells target specific areas of a vehicle?
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A Clockwork Lime
post May 20 2004, 03:09 PM
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Elemental Manipulations can. They follow the rules for Ranged Combat, including Called Shots (which, even by the original rules, can be used to target a specific part of a vehicle-sized object).
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TinkerGnome
post May 20 2004, 03:23 PM
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Armored windows aren't worth very much if someone's shooting through them (they're just a barrier after all). Yes, you can target parts of vehicles.
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A Clockwork Lime
post May 20 2004, 03:28 PM
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Well, save for the whole Power reduction and hardened armor effect.

Armored Glass (Barrier Rating 8) will stop any Elemental Manipulation spell up to Force 8 dead in its tracks. At best it'll reduce the rating by 1. I can't remember off the top of my head whether or not a vehicle's damage reduction characteristic applies against spells, but I'm thinking it does. If such is the case, then even a Force 6 spell won't stand a chance at damaging the rating beyond cosmetic damage.
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Apathy
post May 20 2004, 03:39 PM
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If I remember correctly, can't area effect elemental manipulations hit things you can't see?

If this is true, could you target the van with an area of effect elemental manipulation and hit the people inside, even though you couldn't see them?
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A Clockwork Lime
post May 20 2004, 03:41 PM
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You could target the vehicle, but it's probably only going to damage the vehicle. As previously stated, you certainly could target the interior, but you have to be able to see the destination even for an elemental manipulation spell (though an area effect elemental manipulation spell can affect targets you can't see at that destination). So the glass has to be transparent or rolled down or blown out for the magician to target inside.
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Cray74
post May 20 2004, 03:51 PM
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QUOTE (Apathy)
If I remember correctly, can't area effect elemental manipulations hit things you can't see?

If this is true, could you target the van with an area of effect elemental manipulation and hit the people inside, even though you couldn't see them?

Sure, if the door or window is open. ;) Elemental manipulations also have to pay heed to barriers.
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Nikoli
post May 20 2004, 04:49 PM
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Of course, engulfing a vehicles in flames, melting the doors shhut and blowing the tires out is a bad way to spend your rush hour.
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Joker9125
post May 21 2004, 10:08 AM
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If you can see inside the vehicle just cast a force 1 or 2 flame wall inside it. Im pretty sure it manifests at the location and the stuff inside the vehicle will not be immune to it. Its also a great way to cook the thanksgiving turkey when the stove craps out :silly:
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lspahn72
post May 21 2004, 01:18 PM
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QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)
You have to be able to see the destination. If you can see through the windows, sure, you can target the area inside and hope your spell breaks through the window to get there. But if the windows are mirrored or heavily tinted, no dice.

Elemental manipulation

I have alwas invisioned them as your classic "Fireball" or "lightning Bolt" and is effected by whatever outside forces could impede them.

I had a Shaman, a newbie, try to cast an Acid Wave for inside a Bulldog one time. Hit the Windshield, splashed off onto the dash....controls(non rigged), the driver (a decker), and the passenger, an Ork Sammy(unhappy ork). Since this was a Force 6 wave it almost immediatly started to eat the dash and other plastic controls, subjected everyone to the fumes of the acid, not to mention additional damage to the PCs because they could just stop and rinse off on RT5....

Needless to say, When lone star arrived there was a very pink ork and a shaman with a melting steering wheel in his a**.....
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booklord
post May 21 2004, 03:01 PM
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Example
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An enemy ( who is not astrally active ) is rendered invisible by a spell. However the magician can see his aura on the astral plane and knows precisingly where he is. He can't use a combat spell because he can't see him on the physical plane and his opponent isn't astrally active so he can't target him on the astral plane.

So he decides to use an elemental manipulation spell. Does he.....

a) fail completely with both area effect and non-area effect because he can't target something he can't see.

b) fail completely with the non-area effect spell, but allow the area effect spell to hit as the magician doesn't have to directly target the opponent with that spell.

c) fire the spell at the opponent but take a +2 target modifier for either area effect or non-area effect because he's targeting his opponent indirectly through his aura on the astral plane.

d) fire the spell at the opponent but take a +2 target modifier for the non-area effect spell. The area effect spell has no modifiers since close truely does count in horseshoes, hand grenades, and area effect elemental manipulation spells.

e) fire the spell at the opponent with no target modifier for both area effect and non-area effect manipulation spells.


I'm thinking option d. What do you think?
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Nikoli
post May 21 2004, 03:07 PM
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I'm thinking E since he can still target where to direct the spell while perceiving
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A Clockwork Lime
post May 21 2004, 04:40 PM
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If he knows where the general area where the target is and can see that destination on the physical plane, an area-effect spell will toast the target as long as the target doesn't move between the time it takes you to shift from Astral Perception to normal vision (Simple Action) and then cast your spell (Complex Action). Since that pretty much assumes the target will have a chance to do something on his phase in between the two you need, it's not guaranteed that he'll be in that exact location.
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booklord
post May 21 2004, 05:00 PM
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QUOTE
If he knows where the general area where the target is and can see that destination on the physical plane, an area-effect spell will toast the target as long as the target doesn't move between the time it takes you to shift from Astral Perception to normal vision (Simple Action) and then cast your spell (Complex Action).


Can't someone who is using astral perception use visual sight and astral sight at the same time? In fact I'm pretty sure they can. I think it is canon that if one is using astral perception they can target either astral or physical opponents with the negative side being that both astral and physical opponents can target you.

The +2 target modifier I thought was because astral space is so distracting.
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