Uses for elemental manipulation Options

[paul_HArkonen]

reading the descritions for elemental manipulation spells, shouldn't it be possible to target inside a van or somehting, and attack through the windows, I just want to verify that i am correct in using windows or the like to take out automobiles, or the inside of guard houses.

[A Clockwork Lime]

You have to be able to see the destination. If you can see through the windows, sure, you can target the area inside and hope your spell breaks through the window to get there. But if the windows are mirrored or heavily tinted, no dice.

[Person 404]

Hence the popularity (I believe referenced in the BBB) of tinted windows. Can't target what you can't see.

[paul_HArkonen]

right, i knew about the tinted windows, part, but breaking through is what i'm not sure about. Magic is described as starting out at the spot, so what are the rules for breaking through thngs like windows, either a page number or general idea are fine.

[Nikoli]

I'd imagine you'd have to face teh barrier, or in this case isn't it double the barrier rating for an elemental manip to breakthrough?

[A Clockwork Lime]

SR3 p. 124-125 gives you the rules for firing/breaking through a barrier. SR3 p. 182 references those rules for elemental manipulation spells.

[paul_HArkonen]

ok, that makes my life a lot easier, thanks.

[A Clockwork Lime]

Oh, and because I missed it when you first mentioned it, elemental manipulations are an exception to the "manifests at the targeted area" rule for spells. All elemental manipulations originate at the caster and "shoot" towards the destination. This forces them to break through any obstacles or barriers along the path, whereas combat spells don't have to do that.

[Nikoli]

So, go for a sonic manip that is designed to shatter glass and glass like objects

[TinkerGnome]

Rigger controlled vehicles often plate over the inside of the windows with armor :) At least, my riggers tend to (they're generally removable, though).

[A Clockwork Lime]

No such thing as elemental "sound" in Shadowrun. Elemental Blast (Thunderclap/bolt) or Metal are your best bets in that regard.

[Cray74]

[A Clockwork Lime]

Elemental Manipulations can. They follow the rules for Ranged Combat, including Called Shots (which, even by the original rules, can be used to target a specific part of a vehicle-sized object).

[TinkerGnome]

Armored windows aren't worth very much if someone's shooting through them (they're just a barrier after all). Yes, you can target parts of vehicles.

[A Clockwork Lime]

Well, save for the whole Power reduction and hardened armor effect.

Armored Glass (Barrier Rating 8) will stop any Elemental Manipulation spell up to Force 8 dead in its tracks. At best it'll reduce the rating by 1. I can't remember off the top of my head whether or not a vehicle's damage reduction characteristic applies against spells, but I'm thinking it does. If such is the case, then even a Force 6 spell won't stand a chance at damaging the rating beyond cosmetic damage.

[Apathy]

If I remember correctly, can't area effect elemental manipulations hit things you can't see?

If this is true, could you target the van with an area of effect elemental manipulation and hit the people inside, even though you couldn't see them?

[A Clockwork Lime]

You could target the vehicle, but it's probably only going to damage the vehicle. As previously stated, you certainly could target the interior, but you have to be able to see the destination even for an elemental manipulation spell (though an area effect elemental manipulation spell can affect targets you can't see at that destination). So the glass has to be transparent or rolled down or blown out for the magician to target inside.

[Cray74]

[Nikoli]

Of course, engulfing a vehicles in flames, melting the doors shhut and blowing the tires out is a bad way to spend your rush hour.

[Joker9125]

If you can see inside the vehicle just cast a force 1 or 2 flame wall inside it. Im pretty sure it manifests at the location and the stuff inside the vehicle will not be immune to it. Its also a great way to cook the thanksgiving turkey when the stove craps out :silly:

[lspahn72]

[booklord]

Example
-------------
An enemy ( who is not astrally active ) is rendered invisible by a spell. However the magician can see his aura on the astral plane and knows precisingly where he is. He can't use a combat spell because he can't see him on the physical plane and his opponent isn't astrally active so he can't target him on the astral plane.

So he decides to use an elemental manipulation spell. Does he.....

a) fail completely with both area effect and non-area effect because he can't target something he can't see.

b) fail completely with the non-area effect spell, but allow the area effect spell to hit as the magician doesn't have to directly target the opponent with that spell.

c) fire the spell at the opponent but take a +2 target modifier for either area effect or non-area effect because he's targeting his opponent indirectly through his aura on the astral plane.

d) fire the spell at the opponent but take a +2 target modifier for the non-area effect spell. The area effect spell has no modifiers since close truely does count in horseshoes, hand grenades, and area effect elemental manipulation spells.

e) fire the spell at the opponent with no target modifier for both area effect and non-area effect manipulation spells.


I'm thinking option d. What do you think?

[Nikoli]

I'm thinking E since he can still target where to direct the spell while perceiving

[A Clockwork Lime]

If he knows where the general area where the target is and can see that destination on the physical plane, an area-effect spell will toast the target as long as the target doesn't move between the time it takes you to shift from Astral Perception to normal vision (Simple Action) and then cast your spell (Complex Action). Since that pretty much assumes the target will have a chance to do something on his phase in between the two you need, it's not guaranteed that he'll be in that exact location.

[booklord]