Spirits and Magical Threats Options

[Mulcarn]

Over the course of reading many SR4 and SR5 source books and from playing all 3 SRR PC games from start to finish multiple times, I'm still left with a multitude of questions. I'll start with what I know and from there I'll lead into my various unanswered queries.

There exists at least, or maybe at most, six nearby metaplanes that make up the majority of the standard spirits that metahumanity has the most interactions with. Those being the Metaplanes of Beasts, Man, Earth, Air, Fire and Water. And with those common six, I envision their cosmic distance from us, magically speaking, to be that of nearby planets within our solar system. They are the Inner Planes, more or less. My first question being, since there is a toxic variant of each spirit type, is there a toxic variant for each metaplane type?

Moving onwards a little further, actually, a great deal further. The Outer or Deep Metaplanes are comprised of the Metaplanes of Shadows, Insects and Demons. These metaplanes are home to what we call Wraiths, Shades, Nightmares, Invae, Crawlers, Gum Toads, Ghasts, Vrygoths, Imps and Shedim.

Metaplane of Shadows - Wraiths, Shades and Nightmares (Maybe Blood Spirits?)
The Hive, Metaplane of Insects - The Invae/Insect Spirits and all their types
Desh'Veroi, Metaplane of Demons - Crawlers, Gum Toads, Ghasts, Vrygoths, Imps and Shedim

Out of the above, which one is the closest to us, cosmically speaking? For Shadow and Demon Spirits, are they subject to background count? If so then what kind? Are all magical threats openly hostile with one another? Do Toxics hate Shadows? Do Insects hate Demons? Are they all... friends?

[Moirdryd]

I believe their cosmic distance is a quantum value of 1 and 0.
The metaplanes exist within and without the manasphere which only exists within the sphere of Earth as far as anyone knows. The Horrors may be something from a different manasphere. Whether other planets have manaspeheres too is unknown in general and may be dependent on life existing at all.
BGC affects all magic and in previous editions this is clearly pointed out, and Shedim and Insects especially gain the benefits of aspected background count adding to the Potency.

[Mulcarn]

On the nature and classification of Horrors, specifically speaking, Shadow Spirits. I've oft wondered if they are the ones to Scourge the Sixth World once the stars are right. However on a different note, their feeding diet of negative emotions seems eerily similar to that of the conditions that Toxic Spirits seem to enjoy and thrive in. For example, a Shade requires despair, loneliness, worthlessness and misery of another living being to properly nourish and feed itself. But yet, Toxic Spirits of Man also carry out the same agenda in trying to create physical/astral locations that bear the same type of negative emotions. The same could be said of Nightmares and Harbingers, Wraiths and Harrows. Can Shadows and perhaps Demon Spirits thrive in the same astral environment that Toxics are also fond of inhabiting/creating? Are they not too weakened and sickened by the poisons of Toxic Domains?

Take the Redmond Barrens for example. The sprawl has a BGC consistent of pollution, misery, violence, anger, fear and desolation and who knows what else. Would this be a proper aspected domain for only one of those types of spirits or for all of them since there is so much overlap between them?

[bannockburn]

I think, this thread poses very interesting questions.
However, I also think that these questions are not necessary to be answered unambiguously. These are matters that every GM has to decide on for themselves to fit the tone of their game.

For me, your general classification of the "closest" and "most remote" metaplanes rings true. I do agree though that it's not a cosmic distance, but more of a level of strangeness that removes the far metaplanes from the mundane world, or just the astral plane of Earth. A matter of compatibility of concepts, if you will: The stranger the inhabitants of the planes are, the harder it is to reach their metaplane and vice versa, and the higher the Evanescence factor.

Now, for me, I have a setup as follows:

• The four classical elemental plains are easiest to reach for a reason, because they're used in so many applications of magic. They are the domains of not only hermetic elemental spirits but also shamanistic spirits, for example, the plane of earth is home to not only earth elementals but also mountain spirits. These planes also overlap at points, like water and air, and these points are where where e.g. ice spirits reside. If you take a look at hermetic diagrams, you'll get the picture.
• Wedged between, but distinct, are the more esoteric, but still accessible planes, like where ancestor spirits reside, planes like plant, beast, Emergence Lake, the Norse places, and so on. Some of these are easier to reach if you follow corresponding magical traditions of course, so that complicates matters a bit more.
• Between these common planes and the deep metaplanes, I have some stuff that's purely my own speculation (as far as I know, not having read a lot of the SR5 material), borrowed from a multitude of media and mythologies. You can't get there just by wanting to go there, and similar to the deep planes you have to have a guide directing you there (or first have to undertake a metaplanar quest to find the way). Most spirits can guide you to the Crossroads, but beyond that, they'll have to be from the right "inner" plane.
  
  • The Crossroads are gently rolling hills with eternal late spring and a wacky day/night cycle. Evening seems to be taking days, nights are a bit shorter, days are very short. It often rains which compels travelers to seek shelter in the homely Inn at the Crossroads that seems to be bigger on the inside than it looks on the outside. Food and drink is paid for in stories, lodging however requires a bit more involved negotiations with the innkeeper. The guests are from all kinds of metaplanes, but the Inn is protected from beings from the outer planes. Deals are often struck here, and it's generally recognized as neutral grounds where even hostile parties can talk peacefully. Fights are not allowed in either the Inn or in its immediate vicinity and if you engage in one you'll quickly find yourself evicted and back in your body. Paths go from the Inn in four directions, but you can only see the first few hundred yards. In the hills the paths branch off quickly and only beings who know where they're going can find the right path. The Inn is a good place to look for guides, but they can be less than honest and often prey on travelers. Following the paths on your own will most likely lead to calamity when you reach a random metaplane. The branching paths lead to all other metaplanes, including the deep planes. However, the journeys are long and dangerous.
  • The Seelie court is also located here, well hidden and protected.
  • Most of the planes visited in Harlequin's Back are located here.
  • The Hunting Ground is also here, home to the Wild Hunt, their dogs and mounts. Going here without an invitation (and good luck with obtaining one) will result in a (probably very short) hunt and either death or recruitment. Which is worse is a matter of debate, but the latter comes with limited immortality at the cost of slavery to the Huntmaster, who is him(or her)self shackled to the role. Needless to say, recruitment also means "make a new character" in most cases. Mainly a medieval European deep wilderness forest, it may also manifest as a jungle, or rain forest.
  • Atlantis (or a mirror image of it?) is found here as well. It is not the real Atlantis, which is obviously Thera, but a manifestation of the collective imagination about the sunken island state. Consequently, it's also not as bad as Thera would have been.
• Unreachable by normal means are the deep metaplanes. The Hive is mostly alien, not evil, and the only one with an established foothold, and Ares might be willing to send people there. As for Desh'Veroi, I mostly ignore anything at all about that and orient myself more on the old Earthdawn material on where Horrors come from. Reaching this plane will result in immediate dismemberment by the infinitely more powerful denizens of the realm than can be found in published material. This is where the Big Bads™ reside and where they are strongest. The Shadow plane is more tame, but unquestioningly malevolent. Home of the Yama Kings and other monsters, and while probably survivable in short trips, remaining here for a longer time will inevitably lead to being hunted and either twisted to their bidding, tortured for one or two eternities or consumed.

Another aspect that I'm using are time shenanigans. The close metaplanes usually have a very similar rate, while getting farther away from home may result in compressed or stretched time, with sometimes dangerous consequences.
Also, since I like it better this way, I'm not always following the rule that bodies are left behind when traveling to a metaplane. Leaving your body is merely one way of going there. I use the Astral Gateway power to physically transport people to the metaplanes. Equipment may still follow weirder rules for certain places, but at least your body will not be unprotected while going on that kind of hike, and you can bring friends. On the other hand, you may be out for a few years when only days have passed at your destination.

Take the Redmond Barrens for example. The sprawl has a BGC consistent of pollution, misery, violence, anger, fear and desolation and who knows what else. Would this be a proper aspected domain for only one of those types of spirits or for all of them since there is so much overlap between them?

Not an easy question to answer. Generally, domains are aspected towards a specific tradition. However, I'd play fast and loose with this, especially when it comes to free spirits. Dark places lure dark creatures, though they may vie for supremacy (and maybe make the place even darker in the process). Evil generally does not play well with others. Think of a turf war in the astral plane.

[Nstol_wisper]

The fact that the common ecological information is scatterd across so many sourcebooks is interesting in itself.
The entire phenomenom of magic in the Shadowrun universe is an actual ongoing natural disaster. The natural balance of nations and governments has been shatered.
And furthermore, it looks that the reality most understand as normal and natural is what makes the disaster worse from day to day. What people expect to experience as normal and right is likely causing the crossover.

So ecological information on these phenomenom will be controlled as governing bodies cannot control the situation to a point of stability. And to them power switching from the old mundane logic to a magically powered logic will make them even less stable, less in control, maybe to the point of the current civilization completely collapsing.

This has the effect of making the game world itself in every way the antagonist to the game group.
And to give examples, two paths of persistant gaming can present themselves. Are your players of the mind of a government in themselves and seek to directly dominate the situation to their gain? Or are they more of a mind to seek the experiences and hope to bring some balance to their own lives, the lives of the people closest to them as it is their own responsibility?

[Mulcarn]

Bannockburn's description of the metaplanes and their "distance" and relativity to Earth coincides with my head-canon as I understood it. When it comes to Earthdawn and it's ties to Shadowrun on the other hand, I tend to do the opposite and disregard it as a bygone age. I mean, yes it is a bit of a looking glass into events to come when it regards horrific extraplanar threats and the rising (how high I wonder) mana level. And it's history may shape the future of the Sixth World, but yet I feel like it shouldn't be more than that. Actually I feel if anything it should be as far as away from that as it can possibly stand. These are but personal gripes of mine and don't necessarily reflect the in-game lore and metaplot. Nonetheless I wish to at least make a point of it for nothing else but academia sake.

1. Earthdawn Horrors are redundant

There exists many, many supernatural threats and monsters already within the Shadowrun Universe. Each one its own brand of frightening terror. Some are an invading species of insectoid aberrations that wish to conquer our world since their own home plane is crowded and deprived of resources. Some are the quintessential devils and boogeymen of antiquity. They torture and create mayhem within the world and within the mind of Metahumanity for the dual purpose of feeding and enjoyment. Some are chaotic demons with no real rhyme or reason to them other than to cause harm to all whom encounter them and to steal any and everything of value, and subsequently, to break said things of value. Some are mindless eating machines that embody visceral hunger itself, feasting on blood and essence wherever they may find it. With the last (and most confusing and sometimes contradictory) are spirits of nature corrupted and profaned. They fulfil the role of wanton destruction and self-destruction more so than anything else, and perhaps that of spiritual and physical taint as well. What point do the Horoi of Earthdawn have within the Sixth World? I might even make the leap and say they are already here and that they are already and perfectly classified as what we call Blood, Toxic, Shadow, Insect and Demon Spirits.

2. The Sixth World is not the Fourth World

I'm aware that the Earthdawn/Shadowrun World go into cycles of high and low mana. Ushering in a new age of magic with its rising tide of astral energies and mystical phenomena. But to my knowledge, that's where the similarities begin and end. Yes, there was a previous age of dragons, elves, dwarves, orks and trolls. Along with a previous understanding on how magic and spirits functioned. But things are different now. Not just superficially different but fundamentally different. How a mage or shaman channels the raw energy of the manasphere into a spell or into the conjuration of a spirit is different in Shadowrun compared to how it mechanically functioned in Earthdawn. As if the Physics of Magic and Mana itself had been rewritten. The advent of advanced technology paired with environmental pollution and contamination not seen in the Fourth Age probably didn't help either. I believe I'm rambling now so I'll summarize. While "This and That and Here and There" are all fine and dandy within the Fourth Age of Earthdawn, I do not consider them anymore than anecdotal tidbits of history within the Sixth Age of Shadowrun. Anymore than I consider the history and laws of physics and magic of Dark Souls to play any part in the same for Fallout.

[bannockburn]

When it comes to Earthdawn and it's ties to Shadowrun on the other hand, I tend to do the opposite and disregard it as a bygone age. [...]

Fair enough, it's a matter of taste. I personally feel that the new fluff made up to explain some of the old strands is severely lacking, but it may just be nostalgia on my part.

1. Earthdawn Horrors are redundant

[...]What point do the Horoi of Earthdawn have within the Sixth World? I might even make the leap and say they are already here and that they are already and perfectly classified as what we call Blood, Toxic, Shadow, Insect and Demon Spirits.

I don't feel that way. The Earthdawn world already included a lot of other monsters that weren't horrors, and the horrors in the 6th world are not yet there (luckily enough, or the focus would be an entirely different thing). Yes, the threats in SR have a big enough scope, definitely. But just plopping down a toad thing feels lacking if you want to have something severe. Every vampire is more threatening than those guys.
What I like most about the horrors is the hint at things that go bump in the night, much like the HPL mythos, not actually throwing them in a game.

2. The Sixth World is not the Fourth World

It definitely isn't, I agree. And it shouldn't try to be. The issues are different, the world has moved on. What I like is the deep background, the hints at the history. Things may come up, and if you know the lore, you can pick and choose the cherries. I especially find the dragon history very compelling.

Of course, that's all a matter of personal preference (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Earthdawn is by no means a must-know or must-incorporate, but I feel that the rich shared history can improve a game if these topics ever come up.

[Mulcarn]

Hmmm, with that in mind, I wonder... What percentage of Awakened have turned towards the path of dark magic? How many dark spirits are there in the world in the 2070s? Do they number in the hundreds of thousands or the tens of millions? How do those numbers compared to the normal or otherwise uncorrupted Awakened and spirits?

Is Corruption an umbrella term in the same sense that Dark Magic is an umbrella term? Are there varying "flavors" of corruption or taint? Do blood mages look different than say insect shaman if appropriately assensed?

[Nath]

Back in Third Edition, before Shadow Spirits were introduced, there was a comment in Target: Wastelands that described how Toxic Spirits of Man were created by inhumane situations like slavery or civil wars, and thrived on negative emotions like despair and fear. I think the author intended to suggest the Earthdawn-era Horrors possibly could have been mere toxic spirits, only more powerful and uncontrollable because of mana levels.

I liked a lot the idea that Metahumanity circa 10000-5000 BCE had only encountered toxic spirits of Man because they lacked the technology to pollute the air, land and water enough to create the other type of toxic spirits but already had "invented" slavery, torture and murder (which would in turn implies Metahumanity will face a much bigger threat in the coming centuries).

[Nstol_wisper]

Comparing Earthdawn and Shadowrun for me comes down to mechanics relative to setting.
One's history is well defined and threats come in the form of past ancient enemies. The other's is a history only a few decades and threats are a mystery to to the public.
And the AI narrative is a good example.
They are new and still undefined by many's standards, described more as a curiousity. Yet are a major potential threat to the power structure and are actively defining their own roles as sentient beings while the public's knowledge of these events are rumor at best.
Earhdawn's mechanics, while in theory can have the equivalent but Sword and Sorcery games tend not to define themselves foward in history instead relying on the long back history.

[Mulcarn]

Hmmmm, I'm left with more questions than answers again. When a toxic shaman engages in conjuring a twisted spirit, are they pulling an already toxic one out from their respective metaplane? Or are they simply taking a pure spirit and exposing them through the process of summoning them to pollution of whatever environment he/she currently is in? Or, even stranger, is the shaman merely infecting them with madness and profaning them into an insane parody of themselves that way? All of the above?

What turns a mage/shaman toxic I wonder? If, for example, you grab a random urban shaman or street mage and mystically transports them to an area with a BGC aspected in some way towards pollution, radiation, misery, violence, etc, at what point do they go - "You know, this toxic mana isn't so bad. In fact it's the bee's knees! Time redefine my entire outlook on life and magic! Oh hey I see other people, lemme melt their skin off with acidic bolts and summon the elemental embodiment of atomic decay to give them a hug! That's a grand idea!"?

I could just be overthinking it and its probably something along the line of power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Or however that saying goes.

[Nstol_wisper]

I beleive the games implies that an area can be aspected towards anyting and towards anything else. But darkness and toxicity in Shadowrun seems to be the trend while civilization attempts to deal with the introduction of magic to their modern environment.
Furthermore the toxicity or human suffering is to be removed if the aspect wants to change. So you can imagine the total solution of removing "modern civilization" form the equation at least as equally traumatic as the problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

[Moirdryd]

Darkness and Toxicity are not the trend when Magic is "introduced" to the modern world. 1) Magic is everywhere in the Sixth World, say hi to the Astral. 2) There are sets of conditions that when combined produce Toxic Shaman and Shadow spirits and you can find them in the middle of wild places as well as in among the sprawls.

[Nstol_wisper]

Hmmmm, I'm left with more questions than answers again. When a toxic shaman engages in conjuring a twisted spirit, are they pulling an already toxic one out from their respective metaplane? Or are they simply taking a pure spirit and exposing them through the process of summoning them to pollution of whatever environment he/she currently is in? Or, even stranger, is the shaman merely infecting them with madness and profaning them into an insane parody of themselves that way? All of the above?

What turns a mage/shaman toxic I wonder? If, for example, you grab a random urban shaman or street mage and mystically transports them to an area with a BGC aspected in some way towards pollution, radiation, misery, violence, etc, at what point do they go - "You know, this toxic mana isn't so bad. In fact it's the bee's knees! Time redefine my entire outlook on life and magic! Oh hey I see other people, lemme melt their skin off with acidic bolts and summon the elemental embodiment of atomic decay to give them a hug! That's a grand idea!"?

I could just be overthinking it and its probably something along the line of power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Or however that saying goes.

Well, in the real world humans or groups of humans given free choice will use any resource available to further their own agenda. The only difference in their ultimate goals seem to be what they are disciplined to do. Example,In the real world world chemical weapons are outlawed and most will not consider them, yet a few will and have used them against civilians no less. Their circumstances say they are necessary.
There have been chemical, even nuclear exchanges and massive toxic spills in the Shadowrun game world.

While the real world leaders for the most part will not accept these conditions, The Shadowrun world and the hyper reality of magic makes these events very possible and even will aspect a place toward that created environment then even discipline awakened, through that now hyper real aspected environment.
Given individual choice that is.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Nstol_wisper]

And if magicical threats aren't tough already, imagine Deckers who can use magic to complement Skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rollin.gif)

[Iduno]

Hmmmm, I'm left with more questions than answers again. When a toxic shaman engages in conjuring a twisted spirit, are they pulling an already toxic one out from their respective metaplane? Or are they simply taking a pure spirit and exposing them through the process of summoning them to pollution of whatever environment he/she currently is in? Or, even stranger, is the shaman merely infecting them with madness and profaning them into an insane parody of themselves that way? All of the above?

What turns a mage/shaman toxic I wonder? If, for example, you grab a random urban shaman or street mage and mystically transports them to an area with a BGC aspected in some way towards pollution, radiation, misery, violence, etc, at what point do they go - "You know, this toxic mana isn't so bad. In fact it's the bee's knees! Time redefine my entire outlook on life and magic! Oh hey I see other people, lemme melt their skin off with acidic bolts and summon the elemental embodiment of atomic decay to give them a hug! That's a grand idea!"?

I could just be overthinking it and its probably something along the line of power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Or however that saying goes.

I think both are examples of corruption. Why do people lose faith in humanity and just want to watch everything burn?

Street Magic (SR4) has a good description of eco mages "realizing" that Nature can do what it wants and Gaia can recover from the damage we've done, as soon as metahumanity is completely wiped out. It's mostly about doing things the easy/disharmonious way instead of putting in the effort to squaring the circle to get everything to work together properly.

[Nstol_wisper]

And Null Sects are claiming the same for the matrix.
There are plenty of folks claiming ultimate domain over the Mundane thanke to the touch of the Astral.

[Sengir]

1. Earthdawn Horrors are redundant

There exists many, many supernatural threats and monsters already within the Shadowrun Universe. Each one its own brand of frightening terror. Some are an invading species of insectoid aberrations that wish to conquer our world since their own home plane is crowded and deprived of resources. Some are the quintessential devils and boogeymen of antiquity. They torture and create mayhem within the world and within the mind of Metahumanity for the dual purpose of feeding and enjoyment. Some are chaotic demons with no real rhyme or reason to them other than to cause harm to all whom encounter them and to steal any and everything of value, and subsequently, to break said things of value. Some are mindless eating machines that embody visceral hunger itself, feasting on blood and essence wherever they may find it. With the last (and most confusing and sometimes contradictory) are spirits of nature corrupted and profaned. They fulfil the role of wanton destruction and self-destruction more so than anything else, and perhaps that of spiritual and physical taint as well. What point do the Horoi of Earthdawn have within the Sixth World?

Simple: They are the big bad lurking in the background, whose arrival would be the automatic game over. Toxics, Shadows, Invae and everything else are nasty, but they are something humanity can obviously deal with and overall continue business as usual. When the Horrors come through, a CZ or valiant hero team would not do any good, the SR universe would effectively seize to exist and be replaced with something completely different.

Yes, there was a previous age of dragons, elves, dwarves, orks and trolls. Along with a previous understanding on how magic and spirits functioned. But things are different now. Not just superficially different but fundamentally different. How a mage or shaman channels the raw energy of the manasphere into a spell or into the conjuration of a spirit is different in Shadowrun compared to how it mechanically functioned in Earthdawn. As if the Physics of Magic and Mana itself had been rewritten.

That previous understanding of how magic functions still works just fine for those who learned in way back then...

[Mulcarn]

@Sengir - Using a Lovecraft analogy, I suppose comparing the devastation wrought by Cthulhu, Cthugha, Dagon and Hastur, along with their servitor races are far more manageable for Metahumanity as compared to the complete and utter annihilation of say Azathoth, Shub-Niggurath and Yog-Sothoth.