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> SR3 - Secondary Effects for Elemental Manipulation Spells
Acenoid
post May 13 2020, 10:22 PM
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Hi there!

The players in my SR3 group don't use elemental manipulation spells. Probably because everyone thinks they are crap.

Anyways, I wanted to bring a few NPC mages into the game. who use them.
But, I have some issues with the secondary effects, which sound super great if they work and crappy if they don't. It seems that a lot of handwaving is required by the GM there.


1. The Target Number is listed with four and disregards range modifiers. Are other sight modifiers (darkness etc.) applied?
(I remember having a discussion with one of my players about when he tried to levitate another player who was in free fall from a plane).

2. What would be the object resistance of the following objects: clothing, form fitted body armor, an AK-98, a sniper rifle, ammunition?

3. Unsure especially when to use high-tech (8+) or industrial high grade products (10+)?

4. How much would you break down an object: E.g. a computer itself is a high tech part, but some parts of it like a cheap plastic casing encasing it would be a lower grade, therefore making it realistic that a mage hurls a fireball into an office room with the intention to trigger a fire there. Initially the computer (high tech) would not burn up, but the casing would begin to melt and burn if the die roll is high enough.

Thank you for reading this far (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Moirdryd
post May 13 2020, 11:22 PM
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1. Yes modifiers apply, the Sorcery section of the rulebook are fairly explicit about how this works (ie: blast radius working like grenades)
2. Depends on the Clothing usually 5 or 8, FFBA 8, AK98 8, Sniper Rifle 8, Ammo 8,
3. Advanced Plastics (Custom Carbons, Kevlar, Nylon Gortex weave), Alloys (so bronze and steel), Electronic Equiptment (what it says on the tin) are all High Tech. Computers (things with bits of rock that we tricked into thinking when electricity is passed through them), Complex Toxic Wastes are High Grade Industrial.
4. Up to you but you are "calling a shot" at that point and magic tends to work along conceptual lines instead of segmented ones. In the case of a fireball you are not testing against OR as it doesn't use an "or OR" Target Number (being either a listed Stat or it says OR) but has a 'static' base TN of 4 and the Flames are actual Flames, same as if they came from a non-magical source - only specific magical defenses can protect you.
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Acenoid
post May 13 2020, 11:31 PM
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Thanks for the quick response.

The OR part comes from the general description of the secondary effects which should be valid for all elemental manipulation spells.
Still the Fireball was a bad example, because of your reasons given (AOE = real flames everywhere = computer burns up regardless of the OR).

Let's change the example to the cheaper Flamethrower spell. Primary effect is applied of cause and then you roll for secondary effect with 2d6 against 8 (depending on the chosen damage level this value is increased even by 2 or 4). Or would you vote also to use "common sense" instead of the OR rule here?
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Moirdryd
post May 14 2020, 01:14 PM
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Secondary effect explicitly uses OR and has it's own rules - so you would use that. Computers would use the Computers OR not the OR for just the casing, but once things are igniting all around in subsequent combat turns common sense applies.
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freudqo
post May 31 2020, 08:49 PM
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QUOTE (Acenoid @ May 13 2020, 11:22 PM) *
Hi there!

The players in my SR3 group don't use elemental manipulation spells. Probably because everyone thinks they are crap.

Anyways, I wanted to bring a few NPC mages into the game. who use them.
But, I have some issues with the secondary effects, which sound super great if they work and crappy if they don't. It seems that a lot of handwaving is required by the GM there.


1. The Target Number is listed with four and disregards range modifiers. Are other sight modifiers (darkness etc.) applied?
(I remember having a discussion with one of my players about when he tried to levitate another player who was in free fall from a plane).

2. What would be the object resistance of the following objects: clothing, form fitted body armor, an AK-98, a sniper rifle, ammunition?

3. Unsure especially when to use high-tech (8+) or industrial high grade products (10+)?

4. How much would you break down an object: E.g. a computer itself is a high tech part, but some parts of it like a cheap plastic casing encasing it would be a lower grade, therefore making it realistic that a mage hurls a fireball into an office room with the intention to trigger a fire there. Initially the computer (high tech) would not burn up, but the casing would begin to melt and burn if the die roll is high enough.

Thank you for reading this far (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


The rules as written make it very unlikely that secondary effect would apply.

Going for "common sense" I think is a bad idea, because people always get amazed how little of their so-called common senses they actually share.

How likely is it that a fireball or an electrical discharge causing medium damage to a human also causes damage to objects is not really obvious. Electrical discharges are weird, and I never was clear on how a fireball did exactly damage people that much, but what I know is that humans can get terrible burns from stuff that won't set wood on fire.

Frankly, I wouldn't care much about the secondary effects. The point of elemental manipulation is the different mechanics they rely on: TN relying on vision rather than some of the target's attributes. If you really want them to be usable and interesting, I would limit the application of shielding and spell defense, which are probably the biggest reason people avoid them.
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Kren Cooper
post May 31 2020, 09:41 PM
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The huge advantage to Elemental spells though, is the easy targeting. You heard an Ares firewatch team stacking up on that corner and know they're planning something? Have a massive powerball or stunball ready to go, with their name on it? Tough - won't work, no target. Until someone pokes their head around the corner, those combat spells won't work. And when someone does poke their head aroud, you can target them and only them. Their 9 squadmates out of LOS are safe and sound.

Throw a nice big lightning ball down the corridor and you can target that blemish on the wall - then all of those chummers are in the AoE and are in line for some juicy soaks. And sure, they might get some spell defence from their squad mage to help them soak it down (but remember, they only get 1/2 impact armour verses elemental damage, so even well armoured troops in 6/4 armoured uniforms only take 2 off the damage - so if you can be throwing F6-8 spells, that's still a hard soak). But if they do get spell defence, then those are dice that mage is not using for spell *offence*. And if you throw those spells downrange at damage level S or D, you can make some people roll dice for cookoffs. And if there's a squad, the chances are that someone is going to get unlucky, causing further havoc.

The other side of things depends on the game you're playing and the role of magic and how the team works. You throw a stunball or powerball, and people sort of just fall over, or maybe look a bit squishy. You throw a high force fireball, and people know they've got Karl Kombat Mage to deal with, and all the intimidation that brings to the party.

I'd not discount elemental manipulations. It only takes one of your team members to have, or to cause a grenade to cook off, and combat changes dramatically.
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Kren Cooper
post May 31 2020, 09:50 PM
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And also - shits and giggles. Lemme tell you a story about our game a good decade ago or more. One of the players (Lee - playing Marius in my current smuggler game if that helps) was playing "Teppic", an Egyption style hermetic mage. Spells were big, spelles were powerful, very much a "go big or go home" kinda caster. High force lightning bolts and fireballs. Big elementals. Lots of pew pew.

They were chasing after a free spirit who had done some Bad Things ™ and tracked them down into the service tunnels under a shopping centre - lots of grey corridors made with plascrete forming 10 foot wide mazes that sort of made it feel like an old school D&D raid into undermountain.
Teppic sees the bad guy at the end of the corriodr, and unleashes hell - all the spell power and grade and extra magical force he could muster, into a high force cast. Sure, he's not going to get many successes, but he's casting at D and only really needs 1-2, so thowing dice at the problem makes it all cool.

right up until they discovered the reason I was trying so hard to keep a poker face. See, I'd randomly rolled up the metamagics and powers of the spirit, just to keep things interesting. Reflective Shielding...
so that big old elemental AoE spell hurtles down the 10 foot wide corridor, hits the shield, the spirit gets a little lucky, and wouldn't you know it, bounces back up the corridor towards them. With them stuck in an area with nowhere to go, and ALL being aware of the chunky salsa like effects of blast in a confined space.

They treated the spirit with a little more respect and a lot more caution - once they'd put the fires out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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freudqo
post Jun 1 2020, 08:43 AM
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QUOTE (Kren Cooper @ May 31 2020, 09:41 PM) *
The huge advantage to Elemental spells though, is the easy targeting. You heard an Ares firewatch team stacking up on that corner and know they're planning something? Have a massive powerball or stunball ready to go, with their name on it? Tough - won't work, no target. Until someone pokes their head around the corner, those combat spells won't work. And when someone does poke their head aroud, you can target them and only them. Their 9 squadmates out of LOS are safe and sound.

Throw a nice big lightning ball down the corridor and you can target that blemish on the wall - then all of those chummers are in the AoE and are in line for some juicy soaks. And sure, they might get some spell defence from their squad mage to help them soak it down (but remember, they only get 1/2 impact armour verses elemental damage, so even well armoured troops in 6/4 armoured uniforms only take 2 off the damage - so if you can be throwing F6-8 spells, that's still a hard soak). But if they do get spell defence, then those are dice that mage is not using for spell *offence*. And if you throw those spells downrange at damage level S or D, you can make some people roll dice for cookoffs. And if there's a squad, the chances are that someone is going to get unlucky, causing further havoc.


Except that with vision modifier to take into account, you're at a minimum of TN 12 to shoot at targets you can't see. And in my experience, elemental manipulation is probably one of the only spell where mages are actually worried of getting any kind of drain, considering you need more success on a drain resistance test. Plus, the targets CAN dodge those spells, at TN4, with a combat pool they're not very likely to need if they are concealed. And that's with an easier soak than combat spells, as you said.

So what will likely happen: your mage has to spend all his spell pool (and probably some karma pool) to get one or two successes (granted, I've seen TN12 beaten regularly). You might suffer some drain if you want this to be any danger: even trying to make light damages has a serious drain, and since you need high force and have no spell pool left, that's difficult to shrug off… The opposing understanding what happens let the thing go, maybe yells "brace" to his friends, and everybody dances around avoiding most of the flames or electrical arcs bursting everywhere in the area. Frightening yes, but apart from a few light or medium burns, everyone's pretty much ok. Now the mage, seeing an opportunity, guessing his opposition has not much left in terms of spell defense, yells "attack!" and while his friends unleash fire, will procede to toast your team easily with a good stunball he can cast at highest force and Serious damage, because you are serious opposition and he needs to make sure you don't get another occasion to display power.

QUOTE
The other side of things depends on the game you're playing and the role of magic and how the team works. You throw a stunball or powerball, and people sort of just fall over, or maybe look a bit squishy. You throw a high force fireball, and people know they've got Karl Kombat Mage to deal with, and all the intimidation that brings to the party.


I am really not sure that is true in a world where magic does exist and people know the majority of mages will kill you just by looking at you. This very idea is much more terrifying than a guy making fireworks by waving his hands. For guards forming at being shot at, taking grenades into account and so forth, that might actually be kind of reassuring that the mage is using something they can see to try to kill them.

It's true though that the fluff describes such spell as likely to be used by combat mages. But I am really not much agreeing with the idea that a combat mage focuses on combat spells… Logic would suggest many other spells for such a character looking for combat efficiency. The ability to play on visibility, or to take control of an opposing soldiers action (that's what I'd have done in the situation described earlier), and have detection, would be a high priority.

QUOTE
so that big old elemental AoE spell hurtles down the 10 foot wide corridor, hits the shield, the spirit gets a little lucky, and wouldn't you know it, bounces back up the corridor towards them. With them stuck in an area with nowhere to go, and ALL being aware of the chunky salsa like effects of blast in a confined space.


What spell gets the chunky salsa effect?
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Kren Cooper
post Jun 1 2020, 09:07 AM
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I think perhaps you misunderstand me - there's no way (at least at my table and in that situation) that the mage would be on TN 12. They'd be on 4s.
They're not shooting at the people around the corner. They're shooting at the wall - just with a spell that makes real elemental effects and has a blast radius. So shooting at the wall at the end of the corridor, on the corner that the bad guys are hiding around, they'll be on TN4 - so looking at getting 50% of their dice as successes.

So first off, a lot more successes, means a lot more staging up to higher damage, and a lot harder to dodge.
Secondly, the guys stacked up around the corner (at least in my example) - unless they can see the attack coming, or have some tech means to spot it (rigger warning over CCSS, mirrors on sticks, fibre optic camera around corner, whatever) - I'm not giving them a full on dodge. Just like you don't get to dodge a sniper bullet that catches you by surprise.
Off the top of my head, I'd go with half combat pool max (they're in a combat area, stacked up and planning an assault - they're expecting trouble, pain and lead rain, they're hyped up on adrenaline at least, if not jazz/kamikaze. A fireball appearing is surprising, but not unexpected). Now with that half combat pool, they're trying to dodge an AoE, with a lot of successes - that's a lot less easy to dodge.
As regards the vision thing - meh. Different views. I can certainly see our current "man down the pub, claims to be SAS / Marine Force Recon / SEAL" changing by 2060 to "I'm a mage you know, don't push me". Being able to do visible magic that has a tangible effect is a sure fire way to stop those kinds of arguments.
Leads onto a very much non-canon / RP thing. I've always let my mages have "cantrips" - little magical effects that aren't really useful in game terms, but that I think they should have as 'easy' spells or effects - like the mage who lights his nicostick by flicking the end of his finger like it's a zippo. I mean technically he doesn't have "tiny flame" a -2L drain spell. But come on... that's kinda cool. And so based on that head / table canon that we have, it's easy to see those kind of little RP effects confirming that someone is a mage after all. Or someone with a cyber lighter in their prosthetic finger, pretending - but that's for the players to work out with a perception check and a bit of psychology or assensing, and that's a different story...

As to the chunky salsa effect - I'd put it on for any elemental spell (which as you say, do have their issues - they can be quite weak when you factor in the drain, compared to some other spells) - just because the elemental effect does create a physical mass of stuff, in the real world, with velocity and kinetic energy.
If a grenade goes off, it creates a blast of fire, over a radius N. If it hits walls with a barrier rating high enough to withstand the blast, the blast is rebounded, leading to chunky salsa. If a mage throws a fireblast spell at a target, it has an area as well, defined by their magic rating. While the creation of the blast is magical, once done it exists int he physical world and obeys all the normal rules (hence the bit about having to blast through windows in the description of elemental effects), so why wouldn't it bounce of barriers in just the same way as a non magically created blast? By the point of hitting the target, the two forces should be indistinguishable?
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freudqo
post Jun 1 2020, 09:53 AM
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Ok then, but I think the original questions were regarding the game rules. I did suggest an house rule (limit spell defense), but I underlined it was one. Since you hadn't mentioned you heavily house-ruled manipulation spell, I thought you suggested effects that would happen when using rules from the books. In any case, that was the occasion to clarify things for everybody!

On the dodge stuff, the rules really say it's all or nothing. No combat pool if you are not aware of the attack. I'd be weary to apply modifiers based on GM-fiat for that. And the only case for limiting this comes from critters using elemental manipulation spell-like powers, which cannot be completely dodged with combat pool. And I really wouldn't like, as a player, to have some GM-based limitations on my dodge test based on whether I'm more or less supposed to be surprised by the opposition's attack. Using similar arguments, there could be a case made for limiting dodge pool when being shot at from behind while fleeing: after all you don't SEE the attack coming…

Now, if one applies the chunky salsa effect and cancel vision modifiers for area effect manipulation damages, that makes them an actual must-have for many mages. I'd go as far as saying that in this case, since many shadowrun involve fighting in buildings, that's quite overkill. At least to obtain the same effect, the street sam has to expend a grenade…

If you really read the fluff around a fireball in the book, it really doesn't make a "blast". The flames burn out after touching things, except if they set them on fire. So if they hit a wall, they don't bounce: they burn out. There is a reason actual grenades don't make a fireball: a real blast does deal much more damage, especially with schrapnels flying around.

I perfectly agree that mages should have some minor effects which wouldn't cost anything. Having small flames bursting from your hand is perfectly ok. But that has nothing to do with wanting manipulation spells or not. I was mentioning a case with real opposition willing to hurt you.

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Kren Cooper
post Jun 1 2020, 08:19 PM
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QUOTE (freudqo @ Jun 1 2020, 10:53 AM) *
On the dodge stuff, the rules really say it's all or nothing. No combat pool if you are not aware of the attack. I'd be weary to apply modifiers based on GM-fiat for that. And the only case for limiting this comes from critters using elemental manipulation spell-like powers, which cannot be completely dodged with combat pool. And I really wouldn't like, as a player, to have some GM-based limitations on my dodge test based on whether I'm more or less supposed to be surprised by the opposition's attack.


Just to add to that point - Core SR3 rules, P149
QUOTE
Passengers can only use half their Combat Pool dice (round down) for Dodge or Damage Resistance Tests.

So there is precedent in at least one other case for affecting the combat pool of characters. In our case we've always rationalised it as the downsides of seatbelts, confined quarters and the vehicle impeding your movement. In the case of elemental manipulations, I think it would be just the same - you're trapped in a corridor with nowhere to dodge to - the best you can do is stop, drop and roll...
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freudqo
post Jun 1 2020, 09:37 PM
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Thanks for the reference! I almost never use the vehicle's rules and that indeed constitues a precedent.

The problem with the dodge test, is that it doesn't really represent you dodging bullets, arrow, sword strike or fireball. It more accurately represents how much you're trying to evade your opponents aim. Using your combat pool to dodge means that you're not so much focusing on your own offense rather than trying to not be a target.

It just depend on how you see the lightning ball or fireball actually travelling to the target. The fact that they still need to be aimed, even on an area, always suggested to me they more accurately are multiple traits of flames or lightning bursting from your hands and striking in a semi-random, semi-aimed way a large area.
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Shev
post Jun 2 2020, 02:31 PM
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Speaking of elemental manipulation spells...I just realized that I've always assumed the power of the spell is equal to the force with which it is cast. But...does anyone know where any ofbthe books come out and SAY that?
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freudqo
post Jun 2 2020, 04:00 PM
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From the BBB, p. 183:

"Spell Resistance Test
Living targets may always make a Spell Resistance Test against spells, unless the target of the spell is willing. The tar- get makes a Resistance Test using the targeted Attribute (usu- ally Body, Intelligence or Willpower). The target number of the test is the Force of the spell. No target modifiers apply to this test except where specifically noted. Non-living, non-magical targets may not make a Resistance Test.
Elemental Manipulation Spells: For elemental spells, the Resistance Test is actually a Damage Resistance Test, as described under Ranged Combat (see p. 109). The Combat Pool may be used to resist elemental spells."

I think that settles it. Later they explain impact armour applies at half value.

I was never totally sure if combat pool could apply myself.
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Shev
post Jun 2 2020, 05:14 PM
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Yes, but what is the Power of the damage being resisted?? You know the TN for a Spell resistance test...but this is specifically not that, it's a Damage resistance test. RAI, my guess is that it's supposed to be Force, but the book words it very poorly.
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Moirdryd
post Jun 2 2020, 05:36 PM
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The Spell Resistance test for an Elemental Manipulation takes the form of a Damage Resistance test vs the Force of the Spell. Its under Elemental manipulations in Sorcery.
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Shev
post Jun 2 2020, 06:05 PM
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Freudqo posted that section in the post just above mine. It doesn't state what the Power of the attack is for the Damage Resistance test of an elemental manipulation spell, only what the TN is for a Spell Resistance test is (which Elemental Manipulations are not).
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Kren Cooper
post Jun 2 2020, 10:03 PM
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Just gone through and read the rules, and I do agree that there is sloppy writing there (in a Shadowrun book? Surely not!)

No where that I can see does it specfically say for an elemental manipulation spell that the target number for the Damage Resistance test is the Force of the spell. I think it's strongly implied by the rest of the rules and how the other resistance tests work, and it fits with the system for both ranged and melee combat. But it's not definitevely said. Which is a bit wub.
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freudqo
post Jun 3 2020, 06:26 AM
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QUOTE (Shev @ Jun 2 2020, 07:05 PM) *
Freudqo posted that section in the post just above mine. It doesn't state what the Power of the attack is for the Damage Resistance test of an elemental manipulation spell, only what the TN is for a Spell Resistance test is (which Elemental Manipulations are not).


I think the section I quoted is detailing how manipulation spell differ from regular combat ones. So they didn't think necessary to repeat that the TN to beat for the damage resistance is the same as the one they quote just before.

That's really unambiguous.
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Kren Cooper
post Jun 4 2020, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE (freudqo @ Jun 3 2020, 07:26 AM) *
That's really unambiguous.


I would say "obviously not" as it spawned the question on this thread, and to at least some people it wasn't clear, or was at least questionable.

I can see the chain of logic that goes
Spell resistance test is always equal to the force of a spell
Elemental spells work a bit different
An elemental spell resist is actuall a damage resist test
Because it's a damage resist, you get half armour, and you can try to dodge.
Therefore to soak an elemental damage test, it's vs the force of the spell.

I just think that if they'd worded it as
"For elemental spells, the Resistance Test is actually a Damage Resistance Test (vs force of spell), as described under Ranged Combat (see p. 109). The Combat Pool may be used to resist elemental spells."
instead of
"For elemental spells, the Resistance Test is actually a Damage Resistance Test, as described under Ranged Combat (see p. 109). The Combat Pool may be used to resist elemental spells.
the addition of 4 words could have made it explicitly clear what to test against - *that* would have been umambiguous.

But they didn't, so *shrug*. One I shall correct though in my SR3.5 rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


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freudqo
post Jun 5 2020, 12:49 PM
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I'm not denying that they didn't word it exactly right. 3rd edition is full of this kind of stuff.

And it might be because I'm not a native speaker and/or ambiguity is a "false friend" (do you use this term?), but to me "ambiguous" means there's a reasonable/credible alternative for understanding a sentence/phrase/word. And I'm willing to say that here, there aren't any other candidates for power of the damage but spell force.

I didn't say it was clear or obvious. I said unambiguous.

Something I find rather ambiguous, for example, is this:
BBB p. 44:
"A player can only use Combat Pool dice to augment or resist magic-related tests in the case of elemental manipulation spells. The player uses these dice to dodge or resist damage from such spells in the same manner as normal Ranged Combat Tests (see Elemental Manipulation Spells, p. 196)."

Aren't there ways to read that as allowing for combat pool when casting?
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pbangarth
post Jun 5 2020, 02:56 PM
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That word "augment" sure makes it seem so.
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Shev
post Jun 5 2020, 03:11 PM
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QUOTE (freudqo @ Jun 5 2020, 07:49 AM) *
I'm not denying that they didn't word it exactly right. 3rd edition is full of this kind of stuff.

And it might be because I'm not a native speaker and/or ambiguity is a "false friend" (do you use this term?), but to me "ambiguous" means there's a reasonable/credible alternative for understanding a sentence/phrase/word. And I'm willing to say that here, there aren't any other candidates for power of the damage but spell force.

I didn't say it was clear or obvious. I said unambiguous.

Something I find rather ambiguous, for example, is this:
BBB p. 44:
"A player can only use Combat Pool dice to augment or resist magic-related tests in the case of elemental manipulation spells. The player uses these dice to dodge or resist damage from such spells in the same manner as normal Ranged Combat Tests (see Elemental Manipulation Spells, p. 196)."

Aren't there ways to read that as allowing for combat pool when casting?



"Unambiguous" and "clear" are synonyms. That entry is ambiguous in that it does not actually state that the Force of the spell is the target number of any resistance tests besides Spell resistance. The lack of a clear alternative does not make the entry unambiguous, it just means you can infer it through an assumption.

That second passage is actually more clear to me. The use of the word "augment" indicates that combat pool dice CAN be used. Additionally, on page 183 it states that elemental manipulations are "treated as normal ranged attacks". This would indicate you can use both combat and spell pools when casting an elemental manipulation spell.
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freudqo
post Jun 5 2020, 03:16 PM
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QUOTE
That word "augment" sure makes it seem so.


It does, doesn't it?

But then, is the next sentence detailing the applications of the first one? Or is it just detailing the "resist" part? It doesn't help that the first sentence is actually poorly written. What meaning does it have, in the game to "resist magic-related tests"? I think you're making resistance test to resist magic effects. It seems to be exactly the kind of mistake I make when I partially rewrite a sentence without taking into consideration all parts of the sentence…
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freudqo
post Jun 5 2020, 03:18 PM
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QUOTE (Shev @ Jun 5 2020, 03:11 PM) *
"Unambiguous" and "clear" are synonyms.


Not always.

QUOTE
That second passage is actually more clear to me. The use of the word "augment" indicates that combat pool dice CAN be used. Additionally, on page 183 it states that elemental manipulations are "treated as normal ranged attacks". This would indicate you can use both combat and spell pools when casting an elemental manipulation spell.


I agree on all that. But for me the ambiguity comes from the following sentence, as well as the fact that it is never explicitly stated in the whole magic chapter. I think RAW would be you can use it. And that would make sense.
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